Powered Suits as Vehicles

[rentauri]

I am crafting a fantasy world to run and one of the ideas I wanted was magic to be supremely powerful but to counter this the great Knight that adventures in the land does not do it on a proud steed but instead rides a powerful magical suit of armor, called the Golemsuit. Being that these Golemsuits are more standardized in creation and not custom built (but they can be customized and improved upon over time) I thought it better to buy it as a Vehicle since the player is 'forced' to start with the standard unit and improve upon it later. There are some other reasons as well but that was a big one.

 

I can't seem to find anything in the entry for Vehicles about this but would the character's stats stack with the Golemsuit or would they use the suits stats and not touch the players stats? I could understand if it went either way but I was trying to see if something more official existed.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

If I'm reading your question right, the answer is 'depends'.

 

For STR, you use the vehicle's stat. A 10 STR character in a 60 STR vehicle gets to use the 60 STR.

 

For DEX and SPD, you use whichever is lower of the character's or the vehicle's. A regular Sunday driver like you or I can't use a NASCAR hotrod at maximum performance, and Jimmie Johnson can't use his skills at their utmost in a Prius.

[Escafarc]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Typicaly you use which ever is lower of the two. If the stats of the "suit" are higher than the characters the character should buy up his stats with the limitation Only with Suit. There's an example of a set of Power Armor as a vehicle either in the 5E UV or 5E Vehicle Sourcebook.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Typicaly you use which ever is lower of the two. If the stats of the "suit" are higher than the characters the character should buy up his stats with the limitation Only with Suit. There's an example of a set of Power Armor as a vehicle either in the 5E UV or 5E Vehicle Sourcebook.

 

that approach doesn't seem reasonable. I don't want to spend a ton of points for my crane operator to buy 90 str only when driving his crane...

[Escafarc]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

that approach doesn't seem reasonable. I don't want to spend a ton of points for my crane operator to buy 90 str only when driving his crane...

That's what it says in the example I listed above.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

That's what it says in the example I listed above.

 

 

Actually I interpeted from the example on page 83 of the Ultimate vehicle, that just the DEX and SPD are bought that way and only if they exceed his normal while in the suit. the suits STR is what powers the STR. If it was meant the other way I agree not a reasonable approach at all.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Actually I interpeted from the example on page 83 of the Ultimate vehicle, that just the DEX and SPD are bought that way and only if they exceed his normal while in the suit.

 

As I understand it: the vehicle and the operator are two separate entities, each acting on their own SPD and DEX. If the drive and vehicle have the same speed, everything is cool . . . when your action comes up, you drive the vehicle. If you have a higher SPD than the vehicle you're driving, then you have an extra action to use; i.e. driving the vehicle does not occupy your full attention and therefore you have time to do something else. Imagine, for instance, driving the Shuttle Transport Vehicle . . . that thing probably has a SPD of 1/2. Point it in the right direction, go make a sandwich . . .

 

On the other hand, a highly responsive and fast vehicle might have a higher SPD than you do. This, according to my understanding of the rules, gives you two options: First, you can drive the vehicle on each of your phases and no more; in this case you are not going as fast as the vehicle could go with a better driver. Your other option is to let the vehicle operate at its full SPD--the problem with this being that when it has a phase and you don't, it's moving but you can't control it! Better hope you got it pointed somewhere safe on your last phase!

 

Finally, this is where buying SPD or DEX limited to "only when in vehicle" comes in. It represents training, practice, or just natural aptitude for driving, and allows you to operate a vehicle with a higher SPD than your own at its full potential.

[rentauri]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

What would be a reasonable Limitation for that be in 6e? I was thinking something around -1 or -1.25 being that the Vehicle is a giant Obvious Focus.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Vehicles are well covered in the rules, there is no mystery involved. Just read the applicable Vehicles, Vehicle Combat, and Combat Piloting / Driving skills.

 

The vehicle has its own stats and is a separate construct. When using the vehicle's to move something you use it's STR, not the pilots or passengers. When the vehicle is attacked you use its various defense and body stats not the pilots or passengers. A vehicle with high SPD and DEX is very responsive, but individual pilot's may not be able to pilot the vehicle effectively.

 

The limited SPD / DEX trick is just to allow a "pilot" character who is supposed to be a bad ass pilot to purchase limited SPD / DEX only for piloting a vehicle. Thus you could make Maverick or Iceman and out of a cockpit they are not also quicker than Bruce Lee and more agile than an olympic gymnast. Really, IMO, driving / piloting skill should be used to overcome this mechanical meta consideration, but that's a Heroism for you, stat's are generally more important.

 

Vehicle DEF used as armor is better than worn armor as it stops stun outright. However, when the DEF is exceeded and the vehicle takes damage it starts to breakdown.

 

You can use Vehicle rules for mecha or power armor, and i've got some example character's on my site where I do that. It works ok. However it is more complicated and difficult to manage for the player and especially the GM.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

You can use Vehicle rules for mecha or power armor' date=' and i've got some example character's on my site where I do that. It works ok. However it is more complicated and difficult to manage for the player and especially the GM.[/quote']

 

 

 

Actually I like the powered armor vehicle construct and really don't find it any more complex to manage myself. a Actually simplfies some things IMO.

[JmOz]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

The issue to me of power armor as a vehicle is the defence issues, having said that, it is more a matter of being aware of the issues and keeping an eye on it...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

The issue to me of power armor as a vehicle is the defence issues' date=' having said that, it is more a matter of being aware of the issues and keeping an eye on it...[/quote']

 

Pegging the right Defense level is pretty important. If the campaign average DC is X, then you probably want the defense to be at least X, otherwise the vehicle will be trashed within a turn or two. Higher than X+2 for defense, and the character inside the vehicle is nigh-invulnerable to most conventional attacks, likely going whole fights without taking damage.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

I think the "personal defense" limitation pretty much solves that myself.

[Fearghus]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

First things first... This doesn't sound like a vehicle to me it sounds like a focus, or some kind of multi-form. I'd be very wary of allowing a character to build it as a vehicle much less forcing them to. Points spent on vehicles are significantly cheaper than points spent on your character. They are cheaper for a simple reason... You are not expected to have your vehicle with you at all times. Vehicles should have logical limitations. You can't remain inside them indefinitely, they may require maintenance or fuel, they are too large to be brought inside most building, their powers can not be pushed, they don't naturally have limbs or fine manipulators, characters can not perform most physical skills while inside a vehicle etc. That is not to say you can't build a giant automaton vehicle, but I would be very hesitant to let a player build it that way, and if I did I would make them pay for EVERY SINGLE THING that vehicle can do.

 

Second... What's the point in playing HERO if you want all knights to be the same? It seems to me that is counter to what HERO intends to accomplish. play D&D if you want to pigeon hole your players. Create a template for a knights powers as a launching pad, but I would once again be very wary of forcing a huge template onto any character.

 

OK Off my soap box now.

 

Having said all that Vehicles use the vehicle's characteristics. As was pointed out above Dex and Spd are special you use the character's Dex or the vehicle's Dex which ever is LOWER, and the same goes for speed. As I said above vehicles don't automatically get many of the things characters get. Leaping, and Swimming Movement, limbs with hands on the end, they don't heal automatically, senses... In fact a real argument could be made that being in a vehicle can hamper your senses. So when building your golem suit you have to be very careful that you build it properly and completely, and you are not letting your player have powers like life support or enhanced senses for free.

[rentauri]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

First things first... This doesn't sound like a vehicle to me it sounds like a focus' date=' or some kind of multi-form. I'd be very wary of [b']allowing[/b] a character to build it as a vehicle much less forcing them to. Points spent on vehicles are significantly cheaper than points spent on your character. They are cheaper for a simple reason... You are not expected to have your vehicle with you at all times. Vehicles should have logical limitations. You can't remain inside them indefinitely, they may require maintenance or fuel, they are too large to be brought inside most building, their powers can not be pushed, they don't naturally have limbs or fine manipulators, characters can not perform most physical skills while inside a vehicle etc. That is not to say you can't build a giant automaton vehicle, but I would be very hesitant to let a player build it that way, and if I did I would make them pay for EVERY SINGLE THING that vehicle can do.

 

I don't like the idea of a multiform and I did think think seriously of having it set to be a Focus and using it as that however I wanted the Golemsuit to be self-contained, its own Defenses, Body, Endurance and abilities to be wholly its own. Needing to be re-fueled and repaired as it operates with the user as well appealed to me. I also wanted those that started with it to start with base models that are commonly available units and then the players put points, money and time into customizing, modifying or improving the units (or hire someone to do it for them). With those two main ideas I felt that the Golemsuit as a vehicle fit what I wanted more then the Focus.

 

Second... What's the point in playing HERO if you want all knights to be the same? It seems to me that is counter to what HERO intends to accomplish. play D&D if you want to pigeon hole your players. Create a template for a knights powers as a launching pad' date=' but I would once again be very wary of forcing a huge template onto any character.[/quote']

 

Because I don't the idea of a character with no magical (or whatever) power in the world being able to keep up with those that do without something giving him an equalizer (sorta like champions throws out the occasional hero that uses powered armor). If everyone wants to play one of the huge variety of characters in the world capable of manipulating magic (the power of my world) that is fine however like many fantasy settings this is a pre-generated spell list with the ability to for the spell casters to create their own spells with research.

 

Those that don't have the ability to manipulate magic but do want to keep up with those that do have two real alternatives (at this time, may expand it later) 1) Ride a Golemsuit and then either modify and improve it, if they can, or hire someone to work on it themselves. 2) Use magical items, runes crafted in flesh or the like.

 

If the players want I can run a low magic setting in this world and simply not have the characters deal with the magical items. All that said I am excepting them to play some type of magical character but I wanted flesh out this side in case someone was interested in it. Besides I have a soft spot for Mecha and thought this would be an interesting addition even if it is never used.

 

Having said all that Vehicles use the vehicle's characteristics. As was pointed out above Dex and Spd are special you use the character's Dex or the vehicle's Dex which ever is LOWER' date=' and the same goes for speed. As I said above vehicles don't automatically get many of the things characters get. Leaping, and Swimming Movement, limbs with hands on the end, they don't heal automatically, senses... In fact a real argument could be made that being in a vehicle can hamper your senses. So when building your golem suit you have to be very careful that you build it properly and completely, and you are not letting your player have powers like life support or enhanced senses for free.[/quote']

 

I have a set of pre-generated items that the suit needs such as lifesupport, END reserve, ground movement and mind link (only with other golemsuits) for communication. I was using the Hero designer and the 6e2 both said that ground movement based was 12m and I didn't see anything listed about needing to purchase limbs but since I missed the entire thin on how DEX and SPD work I could have missed that section easily.

[djkester]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

I have been really enjoying this conversation. The thing I wonder about the Golem Suits is, can someone else get in yours and use it. One of the main differences I find in vehicle vs focus discussion is can someone else get in it and use it.

 

So if the GolemSuits are like a motorcycle and anyone can use it then I would think going the vehicle development path would be great. Otherwise I think it should be purchased as a focus.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

I have been really enjoying this conversation. The thing I wonder about the Golem Suits is, can someone else get in yours and use it. One of the main differences I find in vehicle vs focus discussion is can someone else get in it and use it.

 

So if the GolemSuits are like a motorcycle and anyone can use it then I would think going the vehicle development path would be great. Otherwise I think it should be purchased as a focus.

 

Foci, if defined as universal can be used by anyone.

Vehicles will require an appropriate Driving/Piloting Skill (which could be added as an additional Limitation to the Focus build as well).

 

It also bears noting that the idea of a 'suit that someone gets into' is a sfx of its own.

The vehicle doesn't necessarily need to be universal.

see: Killershrike's ERG-9 and his Containment Suit

[rentauri]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

I have been really enjoying this conversation. The thing I wonder about the Golem Suits is' date=' can someone else get in yours and use it. One of the main differences I find in vehicle vs focus discussion is can someone else get in it and use it. [/quote']

 

Yes it can be be used by others or even stole but in the stolen case it has a lot of protections to prevent that thing, in theory, from happening.

[Fearghus]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Those that don't have the ability to manipulate magic but do want to keep up with those that do have two real alternatives (at this time' date=' may expand it later) 1) Ride a Golemsuit and then either modify and improve it, if they can, or hire someone to work on it themselves. 2) Use magical items, runes crafted in flesh or the like.[/quote']

 

If you have a soft spot for mecha that is all well and good but magic is just a special effect... you don't need a mecha or magic items to equalize the power... character points are character points. You can equalize magic with skill, gear, psychic power, pink fuzzy bunny power... or any special effect you want. There is nothing preventing a "Non-Magic" character from building an RKA and defining it as superior skill with a bow... or an exploding blast defined as some sort of chemical bomb... or a flight ability that only works against surfaces that is defined as acrobatics... or an invisibility power defining it as superior stealth. Granted there are some powers that you would be hard pressed to realistically define as skill based... but the idea that "non-magic" can't compete with "magic" is ridiculous in the HERO system. So long as all characters are built on the same character points with similar levels of defense and attack it doesn't matter what the special effect of the powers is.

[rentauri]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

If you have a soft spot for mecha that is all well and good but magic is just a special effect... you don't need a mecha or magic items to equalize the power... character points are character points. You can equalize magic with skill' date=' gear, psychic power, pink fuzzy bunny power... or any special effect you want. There is nothing preventing a "Non-Magic" character from building an RKA and defining it as superior skill with a bow... or an exploding blast defined as some sort of chemical bomb... or a flight ability that only works against surfaces that is defined as acrobatics... or an invisibility power defining it as superior stealth. Granted there are some powers that you would be hard pressed to realistically define as skill based... but the idea that "non-magic" can't compete with "magic" is ridiculous in the HERO system. So long as all characters are built on the same character points with similar levels of defense and attack it doesn't matter what the special effect of the powers is.[/quote']

 

Sure I can use skill, gear, psychic power, pink fuzzy bunny power... or any special effect but I feel that magic is the best suited SFX for what I am after in a Fantasy based genre. In my setting all the other SFX need not apply, simply put they all exist under the guise of Magic whether they want to or not. Those that have access to this SFX are capable of performing great feats of strength and prowess or displaying strange and powerful effects beyond what mortals are able to. Those that don't have access to this SFX are only able to preform feats that mortals can (sticking to the Characteristic Maxima for example) and in general cannot break my loosely understood concept of what reality is because that is the domain of Magic. Its a choice based on the SFX I want and those I don't want, similar to why I believe most GMs would stop you from making a mage character in a Scifi based game. Sure all your character points are spent the same as the other characters but the SFX may not mesh with how they want the setting of the game played out.

 

The characters that are magic users are still able to spend their points however they wish (spells follow a magic system loosely based on the Fantasy Hero 6e example) that are predefined unless they wish to research their own new spell. Taking characters from Champions Menton, Witchcraft and Ironclad would be purchased and use their points in the same way (essentially) but with a lot fewer points to use. While in Champions their SFX's are (kinda sorta) Mental, Magic and Alien in my setting they are all rolled under one SFX Magic. Same characters just one broad SFX that defines the source of all their power.

 

Characters such as War machine and Defender, characters that are at their core normal joes (with massive wallets and brains) built powered armored devices that allow them to work with/against the previous examples. Instead of their powered suits working off whatever wonderful technology powers them (I'm thinking sugar and spice and everything nice for Defender and snips and snails and puppy dogs tails for War machine) they would be fueled by the only SFX capable of it Magic. It then comes back to how to create those powerful armors they use which in my game are called Golemsuits. In my setting and for reasons previously stated I feel it is better served as a Vehicle instead of a Focus.

 

Some other ways of getting it without using Golemsuits were stated before, carving Runes into the body and using gear that is not a Golem suit but it is powered by magic instead of whatever other SFX it could use for the same effect.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

I think the "personal defense" limitation pretty much solves that myself.

 

Pardon me, I flipped through 6th ed and didn't spot that one--where is it located?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Pardon me' date=' I flipped through 6th ed and didn't spot that one--where is it located?[/quote']

 

I dunno about 6th but for 5th, its on page 12 of the Ultimate vehicle. Basically its makes the vehicle defense work like personal armor and you take stun through it normally.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

Sure I can use skill' date=' gear, psychic power, pink fuzzy bunny power... or any special effect but I feel that magic is the best suited SFX for what I am after in a Fantasy based genre. In my setting all the other SFX need not apply, simply put they all exist under the guise of Magic whether they want to or not. Those that have access to this SFX are capable of performing great feats of strength and prowess or displaying strange and powerful effects beyond what mortals are able to. Those that don't have access to this SFX are only able to preform feats that mortals can (sticking to the Characteristic Maxima for example) and in general cannot break my loosely understood concept of what reality is because that is the domain of Magic. Its a choice based on the SFX I want and those I don't want, similar to why I believe most GMs would stop you from making a mage character in a Scifi based game. Sure all your character points are spent the same as the other characters but the SFX may not mesh with how they want the setting of the game played out.[/quote']

 

While I agree that maintaining the genre and mood make sense, I don't see the point in eliminating the possibility of non-mages keeping up in terms of effectiveness with skill. As was noted above, one can simply purchase powers with the SFX of skill with weapons. Should skill with a sword allow the character to channel a lightning bolt through it? I would say no. But abilities such as the following seem reasonable within a high fantasy setting:

 

- enhanced damage

- striking multiple opponents

- throwing the sword for range

- striking multiple times

- striking non-lethally using the flat of the blade

- a slash across the face which blinds the opponent

- shattering gear such as armor, shields or other weapons

- causing injuries that impair movement or use of limbs,

- draining of physical characteristics rather than (or in addition to) direct damage

- skill with herbalism allowing the blade to be coated in substances with all manner of debilitating effects

- displays of skill that intimidate opponents (ie PRE bonuses)

- use of the sword to deflect incoming attacks (hand to hand or ranged)

 

That's all over and above martial maneuvers and various skill levels to make one's combat skills more effective directly.

 

I'd much rather have a group of characters with a wide array of skills and abilities that fit the genre and campaign setting than rule that you can use magic, or you can have this one pre-defined ability to allow you to keep up. If there are two or more players who happen to go this route, I'd want them to be able to be differentiated, not be virtually identical because they all use the same "powersuit" writeup with the same SFX for their identical abilities.

[rentauri]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

While I agree that maintaining the genre and mood make sense, I don't see the point in eliminating the possibility of non-mages keeping up in terms of effectiveness with skill. As was noted above, one can simply purchase powers with the SFX of skill with weapons. Should skill with a sword allow the character to channel a lightning bolt through it? I would say no. But abilities such as the following seem reasonable within a high fantasy setting:

 

- enhanced damage

- striking multiple opponents

- throwing the sword for range

- striking multiple times

- striking non-lethally using the flat of the blade

- a slash across the face which blinds the opponent

- shattering gear such as armor, shields or other weapons

- causing injuries that impair movement or use of limbs,

- draining of physical characteristics rather than (or in addition to) direct damage

- skill with herbalism allowing the blade to be coated in substances with all manner of debilitating effects

- displays of skill that intimidate opponents (ie PRE bonuses)

- use of the sword to deflect incoming attacks (hand to hand or ranged)

 

That's all over and above martial maneuvers and various skill levels to make one's combat skills more effective directly.

 

What in this list is outside what normal mortals can do? So a guy picks up a sword and learns some fancy tricks to help him in life, I have no problem with that as it falls under the 'feats that mortals can do.' What I do have a problem is if guy with sword and fancy trick starts cutting mountains in half (just an extreme example) just because he spent the character points to do it, to me it is one of those things that break reality and should be apart of magic.

 

Upper limits for mortals exist and magic is simply the way to move beyond them, which is something in High Fantasy... the warrior or non magical character getting the Sword and Armor of power to assist them. These items help the character break the limits such as the Characteristic Maxima or No Cutting Mountains in half ban for instance.

 

 

I'd much rather have a group of characters with a wide array of skills and abilities that fit the genre and campaign setting than rule that you can use magic' date=' or you can have this one pre-defined ability to allow you to keep up. If there are two or more players who happen to go this route, I'd want them to be able to be differentiated, not be virtually identical because they all use the same "powersuit" writeup with the same SFX for their identical abilities.[/quote']

 

How is wearing a big suit somehow stifling the characters skills and abilities champions does it all the time with powered armor? Is it because I'm making ten to twenty core units that the character selects one and then customizes instead of handing him a block of points and staying design your own? Cause that is sorta a stable of the Mecha genre for a reason, its hard to finance, design and build your own totally custom unit.

 

Basically it is that the Golemsuit enhances what is they have because unless I missed something, and I could have, their was nothing in the rules stating that a character can't have a trick outside the golemsuit to cause a slash across the face which blinds the opponent and be able to do inside the golemsuit suit as well as long as he purchases an advantage to do so (basically learning to control the suit) or maybe makes the piloting roll, not sure which is is better.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Powered Suits as Vehicles

 

How is wearing a big suit somehow stifling the characters skills and abilities champions does it all the time with powered armor?

 

The powered armor is designed by the player. I also don't see many games that have multiple powered armor users. When they do, their abilities tend to be quite different, and we don't have that "near-identical characters" issue.

 

Is it because I'm making ten to twenty core units that the character selects one and then customizes instead of handing him a block of points and staying design your own? Cause that is sorta a stable of the Mecha genre for a reason' date=' its hard to finance, design and build your own totally custom unit. [/quote']

 

I thought this was for the Fantasy genre. I'm also somewhat biased by a dislike of "magic as a commodity" Fantasy settings.

 

From your initial comments, such as "I wanted was magic to be supremely powerful but to counter this the great Knight that adventures in the land does not do it on a proud steed but instead rides a powerful magical suit of armor", I somehow got the sense that your intent and expectation was that "normal" nonmagical abilities would not allow the character to be competitive.

 

What prevents a Wizard from using a similar suit?