Non-lethal melee weapons

[Xavier Onassiss]

I'm trying to fill something of a gap in the Terracide equipment list, and in my research I've run into a problem. I'd like to have some non-lethal melee weapons on the list, but so far all I've come up with in this category are those in the 'electical shock' category. These haven't turned out to be nearly as non-lethal or humane as they were once thought to be -- I've seen too many stories of police abuses, and Amnesty International reports they've also been used for torture.

 

So 300 years in the future, will there be some other technology which can painlessly and harmlessly put down an enemy in melee combat? Any ideas from the board, based on either real-world theories or SF-sources?

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

[rentauri]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

I remember seeing something about a glove or baton filled with a powerful drug that was administered through injection points, can't remember the game. It had the disadvantage similar to a flechette in that game, the target wore to heavy of armor and it couldn't pierce the skin to inject its drug.

 

Yuuzhan Vong (from Star Wars) had the Amphistaffs and while not 'non lethal' in any sense of the word you could edit and change them to be. Throwing them at a target it could wrap around the target and knock them unconscious, even bite the target and deliver a dose of a sleeping agent to assist them.

 

Of course both of them could be extremely bad if someone had a bad reaction to the drug.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Depends on your definition of pain. There was, many years ago, an article in an Army publication about non-lethal crowd control measures. One of them supposedly smelled so vile that it induced nausea and weakness in the test subjects.

 

Aside from that, depending on your flavor of sci-fi, resin grenades (Entangle), sonic attacks that disorient (Change Environment with some characteristic rolls thrown on), non-lethal chemical weapons that cause narcoleptic symptoms. Oh you specified melee. Urg. Tough one. The last one could be delivered, close burst, with a soft rod (something like a harmless foam sword). The sonic attack, would technically be ranged but very tight. Think of the guys from Firefly with the blue latex gloves, only the device disorients instead of kills. Maybe some sort of strobing light to temporarily blind/disorient the target?

 

Melee weapons are going to be really tough. Our present non-lethal (or less lethal) methods rely on pain compliance (joint locks/pressure points), inflammation (pepper spray), irritation (mace), short circuiting the nervous system (stun guns and tasers) or outright physical trauma (clubs and batons). I just don't know how we are going to shift away from those methods. They work well in accomplishing the goal (subdue the opposition) fairly successfully. A few people are, sadly, seriously injured or killed, but most targets subjected to one or more of those methods eventually submit without permanent injury or debilitation.

 

Really far out methods might come from electrically stimulating portions of the brain to shut down parts of the body temporarily. Sort of like the electrical shock method but far more precise.

 

I got nothing else.

[wcw43921]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Probably the "holy grail" of less-than-lethal weapons is Star Trek's phaser, which can knock out a target with little or no after-effects. Even the Enterprise's phaser banks could be set for stun, as we saw in "A Piece Of The Action" when two competing mobs were taken out of a firefight by a blast from orbit.

 

Of course, phasers were also the most lethal weapon a Star Trek character could carry, as was commented by Trelane in "The Squire Of Gothos," as he said with no small measure of delight, "Why with this one could kill millions!"

 

From the movie Minority Report we have the Sick Stick, which causes vomiting in the target, and may be closer to what you're looking for. (I would not have wanted to be on set when they were filming those scenes--"Okay, we didn't get enough projection on that last spew. Let's clean it up and get ready to go again--how are we doing on the mushroom soup?")

 

Then there's the Neuralizer from the Men In Black movies, that can erase and/or alter memories. Not unlike the LOOKER Gun from the movie Looker, which was written up as the Auto-Hypnotic Gun in an old issue of Adventurer's Club. (I have the photocopied pages from that issue somewhere--I'll see if I can dig them up and post the device.)

 

Hope that helps.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Does Terracide have Psionics / Psychic Abilities? Could have some sort of neural weaponry based on Psionic "science" - basically a Mental Blast Gun.

 

In all the history of the world, every option to take someone down without killing them has been either more difficult, more expensive, or more time-consuming than the tried and true "KILL HIM!" method. And every method modern medicine or science has that will put someone to sleep - quickly and easily for law enforcement or self defense, ranging all the way to the anesthetics used during surgery - none are 100% foolproof or without risk.

 

Even the phaser was not 100% safe, I recall at least one episode where it was mentioned that someone stunned repeatedly could face serious complications.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

A variant on Niven's tasp would work.

[clsage]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

So 300 years in the future, will there be some other technology which can painlessly and harmlessly put down an enemy in melee combat? Any ideas from the board, based on either real-world theories or SF-sources?

 

My first thoughts turn to the Richard McEnroe novel Skinner (a SF novel I highly recommend for lots of reasons, BTW). In it (as I can recall since my copies are currently in storage) there is mention of at least three "less than lethal" weapons: A "stun stick" - a truncheon which can discharge a neural shock on contact IF the user so chooses....painful as any mid gauge electrical pulse would be, can cause unconsciousness, leaves the recipient with feelings/symptoms like a severe hangover when they wake up. Next are sonic stunners - pretty much what you'd think: a focused sonic device using infrasonic audio...described at one point as if you had a large bass speaker at full volume focused at your sternum at a distance of about a foot, even when fired at a target from a distance. The final item is referred to (from my recollections) as a "pellet stunner". The specs are not clearly described in the text but my guess would be that it is a projectile weapon that fires rubber-like spheres at a relatively low velocity (low for a distance/projectile weapon anyway)....Sort of like modern rubber bullets or pancake rounds.

 

Granted, two of these are not truly melee weapons but.....shrug.

 

That's all I have for the moment, but I'll keep thinking....

 

-Carl-

[mattingly]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

A neural disruptor shock baton that momentarily overloads the nervous system mught do minimal damage, but could Disable the body part that it contacted.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Some replies, in no particular order:

 

There are no psionics in Terracide, but the life sciences are very advanced, so neurology is well-understood. It's possible that a weapon could affect specific brain centers/nerves in order to take down a target without harming them. The good news is, there are a number of good ways to build this in Hero 6E. The bad new is, I still have no idea exactly what principle it would be based on. Transcranial magnetic stimulation (tms), which is still in its early trial stages, might be a possibility -- it has potential to treat epilepsy, migraines (Hurray, no more migraine pills!) and even tinnitus, but it also has been known (rarely) to cause fainting or seizures. Weaponizing this technology would make for an interesting futuristic non-lethal melee weapon -- I doubt it could be made to work at range. It might be possible for this technology could produce a 'tasp-like' effect, but I really have no idea.

 

Another experimental tech I've been looking at is the Microwave Auditory Effect: it seems that certain frequencies of pulsed/modulated microwaves can generate sounds inside a human skull with no receiving device. This sounds like something from http://www.crank.net, but apparently it's for real. This can be used for communication, or possibly as a weapon, although I'm not sure about how 'non-lethal' it would be. It's not supposed to be lethal, but there are risks, as always. Anyways, I'll definitely be adding this to the equipment list for communicators, and possibly a 'weaponized' version as well.

 

I looked at the Disabling rules last night, and I like the idea, but this would require the weapon in question to always use hit locations, and also the Disabling rules, which add several more dice rolls into the mix. I might do something like this, but the process would need to be streamlined, as in "hit the location and apply the penalty" without so many extra dice rolls.

[mattingly]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Out of combat, you could declare a Disabling hit to the head, which would instantly put the target out. The weapon could even be streamlined, and have some PSLs for targeting locations built in. Or else you could fudge it and skip the extra rolls by calling it a no-range mental blast.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

It would be extremely hard to design a melee weapon which always targets the head, so I'd just as soon have well-defined effects for other locations. Built-in PSL's are also problematic, since melee combat is so chaotic. Fortunately, most players who are serious about using a weapon like this will be likely to buy the PSL's for their character. (When I played a character with a stun-baton, I went this route -- PSL's for a single weapon are cheap! I eventually expended them for all weapons.)

 

This has the potential to be a very versatile weapon: head-shots to knock out; arm-shots to disarm; leg-shots to immobilize. (Not sure about body blows. Stunned, perhaps?)

[Old Man]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

It seems to me that any such weapon is going to be defined as a HTH NND, so at that point you're talking special effect. I'd go with some kind of nerve shock/deadening effect, kind of like what happens when you hit your funny bone or your foot goes to sleep. Only worse. Or you define it as locationless, causing some kind of nerve feedback that goes up to the CNS and shuts it down.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

A neural disruptor shock baton that momentarily overloads the nervous system mught do minimal damage' date=' but could Disable the body part that it contacted.[/quote']

 

 

That still seems like a variation on the electrical sfx.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

It seems to me that any such weapon is going to be defined as a HTH NND' date=' so at that point you're talking special effect....[/quote']

 

Exactly!

 

One sfx I haven't seen mentioned yet is sound/vibration.

The military currently has prototype high and low frequency non-lethal ranged weapons.

 

Why not say it's a handheld version that transmits the same effect via direct contact only? (assume a well insulated handle).

[Vulcan]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

There's always the glow sticks from the movie Demoliton Man. I'm unsure of the physics of it, but there didn't seem to be any lasting effects from them... or, for that matter, even any pain. When Officer Hucksley woke after having one used on her, her main complaint was that Spartan left her out of the action, rather than any complaints about the nature of how he rendered her unconscious.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

There's always the glow sticks from the movie Demoliton Man. I'm unsure of the physics of it' date=' but there didn't seem to be any lasting effects from them... or, for that matter, even any pain. When Officer Hucksley woke after having one used on her, her main complaint was that Spartan left her out of the action, rather than any complaints about the nature of how he rendered her unconscious.[/quote']

 

Those were interesting when you considered what sort of society would create such a weapon (which was kinda the point of the whole movie) but I don't know if any effort was made to explain how they work.

[Vulcan]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Those were interesting when you considered what sort of society would create such a weapon (which was kinda the point of the whole movie) but I don't know if any effort was made to explain how they work.

 

Well, there were always the followers of Mr. Friendly to be concerned about...

[Gnaskar]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

No mention of auto-injectors? Granted, even with the most effective drugs it would take a few seconds to bring down a target, and without some way of guessing dosage it could go really, really wrong, but it's still a decent, if expensive (if you want it safe), non-lethal melee weapon.

 

the way it would work is basically a device with sensors for detecting blood veins and a needle with a vial of drugs. Apply device on skin, it finds best targetable vein, injects needle and applies drug. With more advanced tech you could add say mild armor penetration ability (needles of high tech materials, and sensors that work through the armor), dosage guess based on targets mass (or, heck, just estimated from height). Blood veins could be detected with heat detection, or maybe from the noise the moving blood makes makes, ultrasound or what have you.

 

And, as an added bonus, you could fill it with whatever drug you want depending on desired effect. Or could even be an improvised weapon taken from a medkit and loaded with a la-la-land drug. I could see a medical character sneaking up on, and taking out, a thug with something like that.

 

Painless? Pretty much. Harmless? Depends on the drug tech you've got. I suspect there would be a trade off point between how fast it works and how few side effects there are. It also has the same abuse and torture problems; even if one dose can be applied mostly safely and painlessly, the can't necessarily be said for two or three doses, and if it can be loaded with anything there is a lot of torture potential.

 

There is a brilliant crime novel where the protagonist get one of these from the CIA, but the name alludes me. At one point he tortures a thug with it by paralyzing him and letting him choke to the last possible moment before injecting an antidote, but it's mostly used to knock people out.

[nobody]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Look, I'm nobody, but I can say that a drug-based system would not be a good idea. Any drug powerful enough to incapacitate a person needs to be carefully administered, to prevent accidentally overdoses. There would not be an easy way to make sure that the person being subjected to this system is receiving the proper dose. It would highly defeat the purpose if you used such a system, and then your opponent stops breathing. There's a reason why one of the people in the surgery bay is specifically there to monitor the anesthesia.

 

So it would be highly impractical to develop drug-based, non-lethal melee system.

 

Honestly, I can't really see an efficient way of developing a melee based system for nonlethal take downs. Even taser's have been known to kill people accidentally. However, since we are talking science fiction anyway, there is no reason why you cannot make a stun rod that does not have the possibility of killing someone.

[The Dude]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Nobody seems to know what they're talking about.

[Vulcan]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Probably the best non- (or at least, less-than) lethal weapon is the good old sand-filled sock, commonly known as a sap. One application to the back of the neck (usually) lays the target right out.

 

With a splitting headache when they wake up, sure. But the odds are they'll live.

 

 

Sometimes the low-tech approach is the most effective.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Not a bad suggestion, except you'll never get all that sand out of your sock, and it'll chafe something awful.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Not to mention that in reality, any blow to the head that causes more than momentary unconsciousness has in all probability done serious damage. A concussion is nothing to laugh at, and even if the victim DOES get prompt medical attention, he/she can look forward to long-term effects. Without medical attention, death is a distinct possibility.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

Not to mention that in reality' date=' any blow to the head that causes more than momentary unconsciousness has in all probability done serious damage. A concussion is nothing to laugh at, and even if the victim DOES get prompt medical attention, he/she can look forward to long-term effects. Without medical attention, death is a distinct possibility.[/quote']

 

This is basically a cinematic trope -- it works really well in the movies. Having said that, I'd agree that if I was working on a 100% 'cinematic' setting, I could go with this. However, it's actually more of a realistic/hard-SF thing, so the possibility of brain damage and/or death come into play.

[The Weapon]

Re: Non-lethal melee weapons

 

I'm trying to fill something of a gap in the Terracide equipment list, and in my research I've run into a problem. I'd like to have some non-lethal melee weapons on the list, but so far all I've come up with in this category are those in the 'electical shock' category. These haven't turned out to be nearly as non-lethal or humane as they were once thought to be -- I've seen too many stories of police abuses, and Amnesty International reports they've also been used for torture.

 

So 300 years in the future, will there be some other technology which can painlessly and harmlessly put down an enemy in melee combat? Any ideas from the board, based on either real-world theories or SF-sources?

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

Are we assuming humans as targets? Because anything with a swim bladder or anything like it will go down that a sack of potatoes with properly tuned sonics.