Physical Limitation: Can Do No Evil

[Acroyear]

Joe is a galactic criminal who also happens to be real powerful. However, since his rehabilitation hasn't been "taking" he has been fitted with implants that prevent him from taking any action that has been pre-programmed as evil by the data stored in them.

 

He can't beat information out of a mook. He can't murder. He can't steal.

 

Now, you can trick him with illusions... or he can do something on accident, but you can't Mind Control him into it or anything like that. It's not a matter of his opinion of morality, but if you make a baby look like a seriel killer with an illusion, he can blast it. But you can't just make him blast a baby if he recognizes it as a baby. Basically, he can't do anything of the sort "on purpose" (just like you can't mind control someone without legs to kick someone).

 

To take it further, he may have another implant (or additional program) that requires him to do good or right wrongs. It's not a choice, he is forced to do so no matter what.

 

Whatcha think?

[ZootSoot]

Re: Physical Limitation: Can Do No Evil

 

Originally posted by Acroyear

Joe is a galactic criminal who also happens to be real powerful. However, since his rehabilitation hasn't been "taking" he has been fitted with implants that prevent him from taking any action that has been pre-programmed as evil by the data stored in them.

 

He can't beat information out of a mook. He can't murder. He can't steal.

 

Now, you can trick him with illusions... or he can do something on accident, but you can't Mind Control him into it or anything like that. It's not a matter of his opinion of morality, but if you make a baby look like a seriel killer with an illusion, he can blast it. But you can't just make him blast a baby if he recognizes it as a baby. Basically, he can't do anything of the sort "on purpose" (just like you can't mind control someone without legs to kick someone).

 

To take it further, he may have another implant (or additional program) that requires him to do good or right wrongs. It's not a choice, he is forced to do so no matter what.

 

Whatcha think?

 

I think you want to break this into a series of specific limitations, else you are going to spend hours out of every game arguing whether something falls into its parameters or not. (And you'll get more points for it that way )

[JohnTaber]

Sounds fine to me. I would build these as Physical Limitations instead of Psych Limitations but other than that it should be fine. I have an NPC that is a demon and has similar restrictions. He is being forced into action by powers out of his control. SImilar situation.

[Talon]

Firstly, I would clarify how "evil" is defined to avoid ugly "discussions" in-game.

 

Secondly, if this is a PC, I would reduce the value of the Limitation greatly due to the "can't Mind Control me to do evil" effect -- purchasing immunity to such Mind Controls should cost something.

[Acroyear]

Well, I have it as 2 (can do no evil and must right wrongs) because just because you are out there righting wrongs, doesn't mean you don't disintigrate bad guys and beat muggers into a pulp.

 

Also trying to simulate that they were 2 different parts of an influence outside of his control. I don't recall ever being involved in a hook with a partial phys lim repression...but I figured if separate it might be interesting if one of the two broke (a vicious galactic thug who "must right wrongs" isn't going to be a boyscout in his methods).

 

Maybe I'll throw some amnesia in there (failed attempt to alter his personality into a good person) so that even he thinks he's a super moral guy...

 

"What do you mean I eat infants?!"

[Blue]

I don't understand the "You can't mind control him into it" aspect. I can see that's why you took it as a physical limitation rather than psychological (Because even someone with claustrophobia can be mind controlled into climbing into a crate, but someone with no legs can't be mind-controlled into walking). I just don't understand why they can't be compelled against their "programming".

 

Someone with a psychological limitation "Can't do evil" would get a certain number of points. Someone with the physical limitation of the same name would get 5pts less, I would think, because it's less limiting. The only case where I would call it even would be if, say, the character tries to do evil but the GM stops him due to the physical limit and the character loses that action as a result of his programming stopping him from acting.

 

But there may be some aspect of physical limit that I'm overlooking that makes it just as limiting in this case as a psych.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Secondly, if this is a PC, I would reduce the value of the Limitation greatly due to the "can't Mind Control me to do evil" effect -- purchasing immunity to such Mind Controls should cost something.

 

One of the reasons I was asking for opinions and explained that aspect. He can still be mind controlled, just not to do anything evil, himself.

 

However, we don't diminish the value of "Phys: Blind" if you can't see images or flashes, aren't affected by darkness, and target that invisible guy like anyone else nor "deaf" if you can't hear a Mind Control command (not all of them are telepathic).

 

"Evil" would be in a sort of golden age morality kind of way. He can still bust into villain's lairs, fight with them, etc... but he's not torturing people by hanging them off buildings, being violent beyond need ("I hit him again! The bastid!"), etc

[FlyBoy]

In a one shot, I had a character who was resurrected by God herself. He had a susceptibility that would go off anytime he broke one of the 10 commandments. Perhaps susceptibility would work better for the character than a psych lim. Anytime he does something evil, the implants give him a shock, or he has "Clockwork Orange" type nausea, or something similar...

[Blue]

That's pretty good, Fly. Aversion therapy, like getting an electrical shock each time you try to smoke a cigarette.

[Acroyear]

Some examples I thought of that might help demonstrate my idea:

 

Simon Phoenix couldn't shoot Dr. Cocteau no matter how much he was willing to in Demolition Man.

 

Robocop had that hidden directive in the first flick concerning senior officers of OCP.

 

That sort of thing.

[Acroyear]

Not a bad idea, at all, FlyBoy

[FlyBoy]

Thank ye, Blue and Acroyear.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Acroyear

One of the reasons I was asking for opinions and explained that aspect. He can still be mind controlled, just not to do anything evil, himself.

 

Right -- but a villain who says "Attack [or kill] your friends!" will have his command fail, because that would be Evil. Instant Mental Defense.

 

However, we don't diminish the value of "Phys: Blind" if you can't see images or flashes, aren't affected by darkness, and target that invisible guy like anyone else nor "deaf" if you can't hear a Mind Control command (not all of them are telepathic).

 

Actually, I would say that those things are taken into consideration, but the overwhelming frequency of the disad pretty much subsumes those things.

 

For Phys Lim: Does No Evil, unless you're playing in a villainous game, the Mind Control scenario is much more likely relative to the frequency with which the character would want to do evil but cannot -- especially if he has no problems with other people doing evil (e.g., Simon's method of circumventing his mental block in Demolition Man). Thus, the reduction should be significant.

[Acroyear]

Good point. I'm not sure it really is, though, Geoff, because the value of many physicals (blind, deaf, etc) is the same if you are playing soap opera, secret agents, fantasy, or supers from what I've seen. The frequency of free protections they might offer varies wildly by setting (psychs, too...it's harder to mind control someone who is "Devoted to opposing injustice" to do something bad than someone who doesn't have such a psych... yet psychs like that maintain their value from genre to genre).

 

It's certainly a healthy way to look at it, however. Would you suggest Infrequent/Total? Or reduce it even further based on your take on it?

 

The player in question, however, has earned the nickname "Body Count" and, uh, a lot of that count isn't the bad guys... so I'm sure he'll want to do the bad stuff often. The disad is kind of a way of self policing, perhaps, in addition to being an interesting background thingy.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Acroyear

However, we don't diminish the value of "Phys: Blind" if you can't see images or flashes, aren't affected by darkness, and target that invisible guy like anyone else nor "deaf" if you can't hear a Mind Control command (not all of them are telepathic).

 

But to give someone the Physical limitation can do evil and then have it also act as a defense is unbalancing.

 

While Blind or no legs could stop someone from using them in some ways. For a PC to be blind but a superhero he has other thing to offset the blindness many of which are affected by the flashes etc.

 

Also some Mind Control's would allow someone to control a blind person to walk across the room and hit someone. Because they are not blind and can control the person's body.

 

While it is a cool idea you also have to consider the affect it will have in game play. If you and the rest of the people you play with think it will work then have ball. As long as everyone is happy the rules can bend as you see fit.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by tiger

Also some Mind Control's would allow someone to control a blind person to walk across the room and hit someone. Because they are not blind and can control the person's body.

 

The blind part was in reference to images. Dr. Illusion can't trick a blind guy into hitting the wrong person. Also flashes, darkness, many forms of shapeshift (now that it's bought by sense) and the invisible man... all useless against Blind Avenger who might not have any powers to counter the sight impairment, but just relies on skill levels or something like Zatoichi (a blind samurai swordsman) and non targeting perception.

 

So now my question is, are mind controls to do evil things common enough to warrant reduced value in the disad compared to the other examples... or are the other examples already have this reduction figured in to their value?

 

Not trying to be argumentative here, but if I form an opinion on a yes/no... I'd like to be able to support it in discussion one way or the other

[tiger]

Well Yes and No

 

Mind controls are quite common. Now if the user is force to do evil is another thing. If you look through CKC you find several with mind control.

 

It would also depend on the campaign your in. I've played in several that have little or no mentalists. In a normal super world I'd say that mentalist are as common as any other hero type. Most of them do take a control of somekind.

 

What you could do is take the Pysical limitation. This stops you from doing them. The buy mental defense that only works against being forced to do an evil act. This would be a +1 or more limitation I would think. Then you covered regardless

 

You will need to specify what the chracter considers evil or not. This will save arguments later.

 

All this being said. As long as your GM and group don't have problem, you don't have to worry about it to much.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Acroyear

It's certainly a healthy way to look at it, however. Would you suggest Infrequent/Total? Or reduce it even further based on your take on it?

 

The player in question, however, has earned the nickname "Body Count" and, uh, a lot of that count isn't the bad guys... so I'm sure he'll want to do the bad stuff often. The disad is kind of a way of self policing, perhaps, in addition to being an interesting background thingy.

 

With the player specifics in mind, I might be more inclined to just let it go...although I'd be that much more concerned about coming up with a clear definition of Evil. In the general case, I'd probably make it Infrequent, Greatly impairing...and I'd go Slightly if I knew that the Mind Control issue was going to come up a lot in the campaign.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by tiger

You will need to specify what the chracter considers evil or not. This will save arguments later.

 

That's part of the joy... it's not based on the character's perception of good and evil, at all. It's pre-programmed by an outside entity.

 

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

With the player specifics in mind, I might be more inclined to just let it go...although I'd be that much more concerned about coming up with a clear definition of Evil. In the general case, I'd probably make it Infrequent, Greatly impairing...and I'd go Slightly if I knew that the Mind Control issue was going to come up a lot in the campaign.

 

Thanks for laying out your take on it - and thanks for everyone who's contributed so far (also would still be appreciative of comments from anyone joining us in progress)

 

Would you have the same opinions if it was a psych (total) which, also, makes it more difficult for something like a mind control to work rather than an absolute stop? All psychs essentially have this positive effect that it's increasingly difficult to force them to do the opposite (above and beyond the Ego+X scale), moreso for broad psychs like "code of chivalry" or "driven to be heroic" and such.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Acroyear

Would you have the same opinions if it was a psych (total) which, also, makes it more difficult for something like a mind control to work rather than an absolute stop? All psychs essentially have this positive effect that it's increasingly difficult to force them to do the opposite (above and beyond the Ego+X scale), moreso for broad psychs like "code of chivalry" or "driven to be heroic" and such.

 

Yes, I'd have the same outlook if it were Psych Lim: Does No Evil; the degree of "mental defense" it provides needs to be weighed against the downsides of the disad.

 

Interesting point on "be heroic" Psych. Lims; I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to claim extra resistance to Mind Control based on those. I suspect a lot of people implicitly assume that such behavioral Psych Lims don't really stop a Mind Control.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Interesting point on "be heroic" Psych. Lims; I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to claim extra resistance to Mind Control based on those. I suspect a lot of people implicitly assume that such behavioral Psych Lims don't really stop a Mind Control.

 

Well, if you have a guy with a Code Vs Killing (com/tot), it's harder to get him to kill someone than the guy who is only reluctant to kill or the guy who's shown he doesn't mind it, at all. The narrower example is easier to see.

 

However, many people take pretty wide/vague lims, too. Code of the Chinese Knight/Chivalry/Honorable/Places the lives of innocents above his own type stuff. These people have personalities more fiercely against doing "bad stuff" out of line and are harder to mind control to do them (and if they have a "total commitment" type psych, I usually consider them borderline, if not over the line, insane anyway).

 

Part of something like the Mind Control scale has a built in "guess" part. "Something the character is willing to do. Something the character is opposed to doing. Something the character is violently opposed to doing" etc. I would imagine, and have always played, that psychs play a huge role there (PRE attacks, too). And the oppsing side, it makes it easier to get them to do things that fall into line with their psychs (which makes things like Illusions far more potent against them than someone who is indifferent).

 

Someone with a big ol "greedy" psych is going to be harder to pull away from a big fat load of cash with MC or PRE than someone who isn't as greedy, for example.

 

At least how I see it, anyway.

 

This is a great discussion.

[Gargoyle]

What is evil doings then ? Mr.Bush has 150 executions under his belt, and if you ask him, I bet he don't consider himself evil.

 

Better to define which actions can or cannot be done than to just say "can't do evil things".

[death tribble]

Implants IIF

 

Remember if you have implants then reduce the cost accordingly. This was done in earlier editions with the Silver Avengers taking the drug cymbelline;

and Dr Arcane using a WheelChair.

 

But yes the idea is a goer.