Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

[Kruhl Sentru]

I've been running a campaign for some time now, and together myself and the players, who are all new to the HERO system, have been slowly learning how to use the rules. Occasionally we come across some problems, but we've been able to work them out so far. Today I've been thinking about another couple of problems in my campaign that have been creeping up, and while I have some ideas as to how to counter them, I thought I'd take this opportunity to see what more experienced players and GMs might think.

 

The first problem is the big one, and that's simply that by allowing the players/npc's to use DCV 3 instead of the target's DCV to hit with AoE (Area of Effect) attacks, players and npc's alike with a high DCV seem to be taking quite a hit in defensive capability. For example, a villain could have some DCV that's way too high for the campaign, and yet will be hit reliably by the players due to the use of AoE attacks. Vice versa, a player who invested in being able to dodge well (high DCV and dex) will also be hit reliably by any opponent with an AoE attack. Sure, you can apply the optional manuever of diving for cover, but that manuever will both use up your next action, and leave you vulnerable to the next 2 or 3 AoE's coming your way. Overall, the ability to make your attacks undodgeable for a mere +1/4 advantage seems like a bit much. At least with something like armor piercing, there's a direct counter to it (hardened in this case).

 

So far I have 2 possible solutions that might aleviate some of the power of AoE's: the first is to apply hit location charts, which we haven't been using yet due to the added complexity despite being in a Heroic campaign. The idea in this case is that since an AoE attack would logically hit everything in the area, you can't really target just one area on a person, and so would only be able to use the standard multipliers and the like on attacks to determine stun and body damage. Thus, you would never have a chance at a blow to the head or to the vitals, for example, and would never be able to target a specific area on a person with any AoE attack. The second solution is similar in concept, and that is to apply the critical hit rules, but again only to attacks that can reasonably target a weak spot on an enemy, and not AoE's. However, if any of you have any other ideas, or know of some rule I've missed that would bring AoE's into balance, please let me know.

 

The next problem I think I've got relatively handled, and that is overuse of heavy armor. I'm running a Fantasy Hero campaign, but hadn't yet been using the encumberance rules, and so as far as I could see there were no drawbacks to heavy armor. Thus, even those who wished to play lightly armored characters quickly ended up donning full plate as soon as they could get their hands on it due to the increased effectiveness and lack of a drawback. However, I'm hoping to convince everyone of the importance of implementing the encumberance rules, which hopefully will alleviate the problem. Still, if anyone knows a better, alternate, or additional solution, I'd be happy to hear it.

 

Finally, and this one I'm still a bit undecided on whether it is a problem or not, is the overuse of magic in a Fantasy Hero game. I did not yet have the Fantasy Hero book when I started the game, and I doubt I would have had time to read through it enough to have implemented the variety of magic rules inside, but in any case, the end result is the the only person to not use magic heavily in my campaign has been rather limited in combat options, and thus spends their hard earned xp on just raising stats and skills instead of making a power framework for a variety of spells/abilities. For the most part, it doesn't seem to have caused too much trouble, but I don't want people to feel compellled to invest heavily into magic just to keep up with everyone else. So, I'm still up in the air about this one, but if it becomes an acknowledged problem I'm thinking of implementing a mandatory magic roll at the usual -1 per 10 active points rule. Not sure if that's enough by itself, but it would be a start at least.

 

Anyways, that's it for now (though I know that's quite a bit of a wall of text). If anyone has any suggestions that can be thrown around at my game group, please feel free to voice them: I'm sure my players would be happy to hear them.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

The lowest AE advantage I can think of that lets you target DCV 3 is One Hex, which is a +1/2 advantage. Consider what that does to your damage output; if your Active Point cap is 60, you get a measly 8d6 out of it. Yeah, you're very likely to hit, but a character with average defenses will laugh it off, and even a soft, fast target won't be that badly hurt. Also, remember that diving for cover from a One Hex AoE power is cake for pretty much anybody.

 

Yeah, in a Fantasy game, encumbrance is pretty much the reason not to use heavy armor.

 

You may try to encourage your non-magician to buy 'super skills', that represent advanced combat techniques. Say, a AE One Hex, doubled radius, hole in the middle on HKAs, letting him skewer multiple opponents at the same time when surrounded, or Autofire on the HKA for multistabbing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Unless the attacker has a SPD advantage the defender can usually Dive For Cover multiple times (there may be penalties imposed for being prone after the 1st attempt). Since the success is based on a DEX roll the CV of the attacker and defender are irrelevant (most CSL's can't be used). However, Skill Levels with Movement and Overall Skill Levels can be used to improve the DFC roll. Many threads have had arguments about DFC being too GOOD of a defense vs. AOE attacks.

 

Re: Fantasy Hero and magic you might want to take a look at this fansite:

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.aspx

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

There are for simple words that override any (percieved) rule:

The GM says no!

 

When you think it would break the balance or the fun off the game, just ignore the rules. But for starters take a better look in the rules (or do the fast thing and ask like you did). There often is something in there you overlooked, no wonder considering that the Core Books are nearly 800 Pages^^

 

Power Frameworks in heroic:

Only use them for equipment, things that are Foci and have Limited Charges. There are not inteded to be used for (Heroic)Magicians in the first place.

They should have to use the Various Spell Limitations (requires Magic Roll, Concentration, Extra Time, Incantations, Gestures....) that can be seen in the example Spells, to lower the Real Costs.

Another way might be to say they have to use "Mana". Simply put, every Spell must use your "Mana"-Endurance reserve. Again, carefully observe how it is used/build since some builds may unbalance the game.

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Also, there are apparently special Combat maneuvers called "Fantasy HERO Talents", take a look here. It even has a similar AOE-argument, but for the maneuver

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

There are for simple words that override any (percieved) rule:

The GM says no!

 

When you think it would break the balance or the fun off the game, just ignore the rules. But for starters take a better look in the rules (or do the fast thing and ask like you did). There often is something in there you overlooked, no wonder considering that the Core Books are nearly 800 Pages^^

 

Power Frameworks in heroic:

Only use them for equipment, things that are Foci and have Limited Charges. There are not inteded to be used for (Heroic)Magicians in the first place.

They should have to use the Various Spell Limitations (requires Magic Roll, Concentration, Extra Time, Incantations, Gestures....) that can be seen in the example Spells, to lower the Real Costs.

Another way might be to say they have to use "Mana". Simply put, every Spell must use your "Mana"-Endurance reserve. Again, carefully observe how it is used/build since some builds may unbalance the game.

That's extremely campaign specific. I'm not sure if any of the "official" magic systems in the Fantasy Hero book uses multipowers, but I know I have seen at least 4 or 5 magic systems in the Fantasy section of the boards over the years that use them.

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

That's extremely campaign specific. I'm not sure if any of the "official" magic systems in the Fantasy Hero book uses multipowers' date=' but I know I have seen at least 4 or 5 magic systems in the Fantasy section of the boards over the years that use them.[/quote']

When you do, don't complain if magicians get to Powerfull. They are supposed to lower their Real Cost with Limitations, not a variable (equivalent of -4 Limitation) or fixed Slot (-9 Limitation) in a Multipower.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

"When you do"? When I do what?!

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

When you do ignore the guidelines to not allow Multipowers for heroic-level magic.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I'm at work and don't have any of my books with me. Could you tell me where to find those particular guidelines when I get home?

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I'm at work and don't have any of my books with me. Could you tell me where to find those particular guidelines when I get home?

6E1, 398: "Power Frameworks are most appropriate for Superheroic games. In Heroic games, they’re most often used to represent weapons or other pieces of equipment with multiple functions (such as a three-setting laser pistol defined as a Multipower)."

And especially:

"The GM should carefully check each character’s Power Frameworks to make sure they fit in his campaign."

 

As I read it, it says: "Better don't allow Multipower for Heric level Mages (themself). For Items with overall charges for the MP, they are okay." Every official Heroic Item and Magician I have seen so far fits into this. And you yourself noted that no official Heroic Magic System uses MP.

When you want to allow it, you can of course just go on. But be warned, that heroic magicians can be way more powerfull/versatile than inteded by the system if they don't have to take the limitations (or can take them on the Magic MP) that are on every official heroic spell.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

6E1, 398: "Power Frameworks are most appropriate for Superheroic games. In Heroic games, they’re most often used to represent weapons or other pieces of equipment with multiple functions (such as a three-setting laser pistol defined as a Multipower)."

And especially:

"The GM should carefully check each character’s Power Frameworks to make sure they fit in his campaign."

 

As I read it, it says: "Better don't allow Multipower for Heric level Mages (themself). For Items with overall charges for the MP, they are okay." Every official Heroic Item and Magician I have seen so far fits into this. And you yourself noted that no official Heroic Magic System uses MP.

When you want to allow it, you can of course just go on. But be warned, that heroic magicians can be way more powerfull/versatile than inteded by the system if they don't have to take the limitations (or can take them on the Magic MP) that are on every official heroic spell.

 

Sounds pretty campaign specific and that the book leaves it up to the GM. There are warnings about Stop Sign and Yield Sign Powers as well, doesn't mean the book is saying "Better don't allow" them.

[Markdoc]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

When you do ignore the guidelines to not allow Multipowers for heroic-level magic.

 

We've been using multipowers for many, many years, in heroic level fantasy. It's not a problem - as long as your magic system is set up properly (and by "properly" it means "to give the feel that you want".

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

6E1, 398: "Power Frameworks are most appropriate for Superheroic games. In Heroic games, they’re most often used to represent weapons or other pieces of equipment with multiple functions (such as a three-setting laser pistol defined as a Multipower)."

And especially:

"The GM should carefully check each character’s Power Frameworks to make sure they fit in his campaign."

 

As I read it, it says: "Better don't allow Multipower for Heric level Mages (themself). For Items with overall charges for the MP, they are okay." Every official Heroic Item and Magician I have seen so far fits into this. And you yourself noted that no official Heroic Magic System uses MP.

When you want to allow it, you can of course just go on. But be warned, that heroic magicians can be way more powerfull/versatile than inteded by the system if they don't have to take the limitations (or can take them on the Magic MP) that are on every official heroic spell.

 

Your interpretation is incorrect. The rules you quoted make it clear that it's an issue to be aware of, but it's not a "do not use!" suggestion.

 

The fantasy hero rulebook not only includes sample magic systems using multipowers, such as Eldritch Lore and Vandsarjak, but specifically suggests guidelines for using multipowers in Heroic level fantasy (from page 136 :"Power Frameworks usually only apply to Fantasy Hero campaigns in the context of magic systems — in some games, spellcasters can buy their spells in Power Frameworks, or define a specific spell with multiple applications as a single Power Frame- work. See page 239 for further discussion. If the GM allows spell- casters to have at least some types of Power Frameworks, he may also want to consider letting characters with other types of mystic abilities have Frame- works, too. For example, a “mystic martial artist” character might create a Multipower of Hand- To-Hand Attacks to represent various martial arts strikes." There's a more detailed discussion of power frameworks on pages 239-241, as noted.

 

So, yeah, there's nothing in the rules to suggest that using multipowers in fantasy hero is non-no - merely that giving them only to mages can create balance issues. There are several threads on this forum discussing exactly these issues.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

It's also possible for non-mages to have multipowers as well. If everyone's using them, they don't give one kind of character an advantage.

 

And as far as "official" goes, one official published system says to calculate the normal Real Cost of a spell - and then arbitrarily divide it by 3. At least with a Multipower you're paying for the cost break by not being able to run all spells at once at full power.

 

Another balancing factor to consider is that non-spellcasting characters normally don't spend points on weapons, armor, and other equipment. A warrior's most important Power is usually a weapon - and they can get that for free.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

multi palindromedary

[Kruhl Sentru]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Hmm... well, I mis-read Dive For Cover, and missed the part about being allowed to use it multiple times despite it being an Abort action, so that handles AoE's pretty well actually. Seems like the encumberance rules handle platemail pretty well, so now I'm just left with trying to figure out how to handle magic overuse.

 

The main problem here is that most of the players already have decently large multi-powers, and not nearly enough xp to make up for that. I really want to keep my campaign going, as it's got a loooooong over-arching plot that's barely been touched, but at the same time it looks like it's going to be pretty hard to convince the magic users to just give up their excess spells, and it's been pretty hard already to convince the non-magic user to try out multi-powers to begin with. Either way, I may have to allow the players to at the very least to be able to remake their characters in order to make up for the change in point costs.

 

On the bright side, it looks like I've got alot more ideas to toss around, which will help things dramatically, so thanks for the help!

[Lucius]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

If you require Magic Skill rolls, and apply a heavy penalty for armor to them, that's one way to get all those magicians out of armor and leave the warrior (assuming he wears heavy armor) with one distinct advantage.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have the distinct advantage of having a palindromedary

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Some great points have been made, but my favorite ways to limit AOE's: Enforce friendly fire and collateral damage. If the wizard throws a fireball, have it set fire to and burn down the palace. Or enforce other limitations on magic; extra time, focus, etc. and use those to limit the spellcasters from dominating everything. Have them face an enemy on occasion who has the ability to turn their magic against them, or enemies resistant to magic but less capable in HTH combat.

 

One of the hardest things as a GM is ensuring every player has an opportunity to shine, to "do their thing," while not completely railroading the plot. A lot of this has to do with paying close attention to the details of how things work in your campaign, configuring the powers and such to match that vision, and then properly tracking and enforcing it. Sometimes it might need tweaks to the characters themselves, but abandoning entire character tropes due to "magic being overpowered" would be a shame.

[Ice9]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I don't think Multipowers are inherently a balance issue. In fact, even removing them doesn't really change the balance of magic vs non-magic - it just makes some types of magic (ongoing charms, shapeshifting, summoning) superior to others.

Measures like a large magic skill investment and incompatibility with armor will put a clearer delineation between mages and other types - no "warrior with a few magic tricks" characters - which may or may not be what you're looking for.

 

What you might need to address is the much greater flexibility "magic" has as a SFX. I can think of a few ways:

1) Reward Specialization. Set your AP/stat caps very high, relative to the total points, so that you can't be good in every area, and frameworks are more of an effective limit. A warrior may not have as many tricks, but he will hit harder than any mage. The downside is that it also penalizes having any side-skills. El Ravager the killing machine will trump a swashbuckler who also has social skills.

2) Limit Magic. Not in terms of literal Limitations, but have a defined scope for what magic can do. A rule like "Magic cannot directly affect someone wearing or holding a significant quantity of iron" or "All spells require inscribing a runic circle on the ground" will have significant effects, and carve a definite niche for non-mages.

3) Everyone Has Magic. Break down the mage/non-mage wall. HERO is a classless system anyway, so why limit magic to one type of character? Runic warriors, thieves blessed with charms, divine knights with the power of light, and so forth.

4) Everyone Has Powers. There are more SFX than magic for having a variety of powers. Mythic warriors who can slice through mountains, heroes of destiny whose improbable luck lets them do the impossible, etc.

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

All of those are very nice - for experienced GM's.

 

He's a new GM. There is a guideline regaring Frameworks for new GM's. He deceided to follow that guideline, untill he has more experience.

Sometimes the best way is the most simple one.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

And yet the cease being a novice is try to and learn to perform more "difficult" tasks. And that's assuming the "novice" isn't good enough to start use everything from the beginning.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

... no official Heroic Magic System uses MP.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Tuala Morn doesn't call it that, but its Draichta magic system is essentially a quick-and-dirty Multipower. The Perk you buy is essentially a control cost, and then you pay 1 point per spell, which is about what most spells would run as a slot. If you costed out the actual spells of any given character as a Multipower, I'd be willing to bet that the point cost wouldn't be far off from the system as written.

 

The Arcanoi Segalos of the Atlantean Age are Multipowers.

 

In the Valdorian Age, having a Multipower is one of the things that sets a true sorcerer apart from a hedge mage.

 

I don't have the Turakian Age, so I can't speak for that, but that's at least three of the four major fantasy settings produced by Hero Games...

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I only said what was said to me. I do not have any of those settings.

 

And like you said, it makes a difference in power to have a multipower or to not have one.

 

And I bet each of those chases had either some drawback (you are hunted for forbidden magic) or gave the non-magicians additional options of equal value.

That is unfortunately not so true when you only have the two core books, wich is why it was written to be carefull about using them. Unless you allow the non-macgicians to build Power based Attack Talents (wich only makes it more difficulty).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Actually it was never said to you. I said I didn't know if any official magic systems used MP but that there were multiple ones suggested on the Fantasy Hero board. Than you claimed I said no official ones used them...

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Actually it was never said to you. I said I didn't know if any official magic systems used MP but that there were multiple ones suggested on the Fantasy Hero board. Than you claimed I said no official ones used them...

Then this was simply a misunderstanding, that is solved now.

 

But how about the other things in post 23, do you agree with them?