Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Give enemy mages the ability to Deflect & Reflect spells, that'll be a rude wake up call.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

And I bet each of those chases had either some drawback (you are hunted for forbidden magic) or gave the non-magicians additional options of equal value.

That is unfortunately not so true when you only have the two core books, wich is why it was written to be carefull about using them. Unless you allow the non-macgicians to build Power based Attack Talents (wich only makes it more difficulty).

 

You're right on that. Atlantean Age and Tuala Morn have pretty spiffy fighters (Super-skills built as Powers), and Valdorian Age magic has a lot of drawbacks (as well as somewhat spiffy fighters). If you're trying to run a fairly vanilla fantasy game where the fighters use straight up Skills and Talents without Powers, then a Multipower is going to give the mages a pretty big advantage, unless it's got a pile of Limitations on it.

[Fearghus]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I just have to reiterate what crosshaircollie says.

 

1st... AOEs cut down on the damage done... So sure you get hit, but you get hit for less damage.

 

2nd... Ummm yeah... encumbrance rules are pretty much the only balance to heavy armor in a fantasy game. If you are not playing with them... Start playing with them.

 

3rd... If your non-mage character is only buying skills and stats with his XP he is not spending them correctly. there are all kinds of ways you can buy powers with out describing them as "magic" remember magic is only a special effect... so is sword skill... and acrobatics... and stealthiness. I have no idea what kinds of powers the character is interested in but there is nothing preventing him from buying powers that are meant to mimic combat skill.

 

A few examples of this that I have built in the past...

 

>A strong melee character that bought a naked advantage for knockback with his melee attacks

>A thief like character that bought invisibility to hide really well.

>An acrobat that has levels of clinging, flying, leaping, swinging etc. giving him more maneuverability in combat than others.

>A samurai with a kiai yell that allows him bonus strength or extra damage.

>A swordsman that had the ability to simultaneously attack everyone within one hex of him (AOE advantage applied to sword attacks)

>Getting more into the fantasy realm a character that was so skilled at using a sword he could turn a sword slash into a ranged attack (common anime ability)

 

Anyway you get the idea. Magic should not be the only way to access the powers chapter of the book. Just because a character is not casting spells doesn't mean he can't do incredible things.

 

And my final point... Magic should be in itself a weakness as well as a strength. Powers like dispel magic, suppress magic, and drain magic can be devastating to a magic user. introduce a villain into your game that can block, absorb, suppress, or in some other way nerf the magical effects and I bet every character in the group will wish they had spent more character points on sword combat skill levels. Even powers like entangle or flash can be dangerous to a magic user who bought his spells with limitations like gestures, and incantations.

[dsatow]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

IIRC, the Accurate advantage just drops your Base DCV to 3. I seem to recall that maneuvers are still applicable. So you can still block the attack and still dodge the attack. I also allow the "Dive for cover" and if you dive out of the area of effect, it misses.

[dmjalund]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I think the Ultimate Defense against Area Affect Accurate is Desolid that only works against AoE Accurate bought as "Ultimate Dodge" talent

[Tasha]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

As others said Use lots of Dive for Cover or Require that all AOE spells are Non-Selective. That makes the AOE caster have to hit all of the DCVs in the AOE. It also makes most Fireball and Lightning bolt spells feel a bit more like D&D spells than Superheroic Powers.

 

As for the rest having CLEAR campaign guidelines for OCV, DCV, DCs etc will help other balance issues. My group has used Multipowers as spell frameworks since 4e and never had a balance issue. You as a GM need to make it clear what kind of fantasy game you are running.

 

If you running a Swashbuckling game where noone wears armor you have to make it clear that Heavy battle armor aren't available for purchase. Otherwise, if you are running a D&D style game expect to see characters with 6-8 rDef Armors or 3 rDef with Combat Luck (totals to 6 rDef). That's why there are heavy weapons on the chart. Have your NPCs use Bastard Swords, Battle Axes, and heavier weapons. Also don't forget that 2 skill levels can be used to add 1dc to a weapon. It's a great way to get those wimpy longswords (1d6+1 HKAs 12 StrMin) up to 1.5 -2d6 Killing attacks. Also Play the Equipment charts (ie why have troops with 12 str min Broadswords, when you can buy StrMin 13 bastard Swords that do an extra DC.) Axes do more damage for the same str (ie Francisca is 1/5d6 with a 12 str min, and a Battle Axe is 2d6 with a 13 Str Min).

 

Also you could allow Elite Troops to know a Weapon style of Martial arts. That's a great way to pump up NPC damage to challenge the PCs.

 

Also, I recommend allowing Skill/Powers. Things like Rogue/Ranger stealth being a Magical Invisibility instead of just a Stealth roll (also allowing the use of the ability in any but the brightest light (ie anywhere where one can find shadows).) Encourage people to buy the special Talents from Fantasy Hero and the campaign books to further differentiate themselves and to give them "cool" stuff to do so that the Mage isn't the only one with cool powers. Use D&D and MMOs to come up with abilities. You will have more fun that way.

[Vondy]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

The best way to make sure you don't run into problems with magic is to set up the system so that magical effects have sufficient limitations to keep them from ruining the game. In terms of magic overuse this could be increased endurance cost for spells, limited charges on the MP (in this case) that automatically recover after X cool-off period, the use of material components for spells, or special requirements like ritual magic that mean magic can only be used under specific circumstances. You can combine all of these. Another possibility is some sort of cumulative side-effect that builds up as magic is used (like a transform with the fast healing modifier slapped on). I think the problem with magic overuse is often more not leveraging the system that the system itself.

[dmjalund]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Another possibility is allow low AP spells with few limitations, but higher AP spells required more limitations.

[Vondy]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

All of those are very nice - for experienced GM's.

 

He's a new GM. There is a guideline regaring Frameworks for new GM's. He deceided to follow that guideline, untill he has more experience.

Sometimes the best way is the most simple one.

 

One becomes an experienced GM by learning the hard-way. The OP has started that glorious journey by starting a game (using the guideline) and realizing there is something they did not account for. In their wisdom, they've asked for the advice of more experienced peers on how to address the issue they now face. Do you expect those more experienced game-masters to give an answer other than what their own hard-won experience has taught them? One asks more experienced peers for the solutions they themselves use. Emmulation is like training wheels. Unless you try something harder, even if you fail at first, you won't up your game.

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Another possibility is allow low AP spells with few limitations' date=' but higher AP spells required more limitations.[/quote']

Just disalowing Frameworks already would do that. Like I said: Variable Slot is bascially a -4 Limitation, Fixed slot a -9.

When you don't have that option anymore, you have to add a lot of limitations just to make your 50 AP Spell somewhat payable.

 

3rd... If your non-mage character is only buying skills and stats with his XP he is not spending them correctly. there are all kinds of ways you can buy powers with out describing them as "magic" remember magic is only a special effect... so is sword skill... and acrobatics... and stealthiness. I have no idea what kinds of powers the character is interested in but there is nothing preventing him from buying powers that are meant to mimic combat skill.

 

A few examples of this that I have built in the past...

 

>A strong melee character that bought a naked advantage for knockback with his melee attacks

>A thief like character that bought invisibility to hide really well.

>An acrobat that has levels of clinging, flying, leaping, swinging etc. giving him more maneuverability in combat than others.

>A samurai with a kiai yell that allows him bonus strength or extra damage.

>A swordsman that had the ability to simultaneously attack everyone within one hex of him (AOE advantage applied to sword attacks)

>Getting more into the fantasy realm a character that was so skilled at using a sword he could turn a sword slash into a ranged attack (common anime ability)

Most of them can be found in the Martial Artist Supplement. But there is also Enerjutsu, basically martial Arts for EP's. And specifically Mages. And other things

 

I think the Ultimate Defense against Area Affect Accurate is Desolid that only works against AoE Accurate bought as "Ultimate Dodge" talent

The "ultimate doging Technique" from HSMA is build exaclty that way. But sword finger (Attack with affects Desolid) can still hit you.

 

@Vondy:

I don't say it is wrong to give him al those Options. Just that it is sometimes the best to not overload yourself with to many possibilities, since it can cost you the focus you need for GM-ing

This is of course still usefull for all the others that might have similar questions.

[Martin2]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Being new to the Hero system and 6th in general I have the most knowledge of 6th. So to me it seems logical that the defences of a character are a combination of DCV / DMCV and other defensive powers to cover single and AoE attacks. And it also seems logical that hitting a person with an AoE is easier than with a single shot (but how easy should it be????). You get hit, your other defences take over.

 

A character with high DCV / DMCV and low other defences simulates a speedster character. Most of his defence is not being hit and apparently copes a lot better to AoE in previous systems. But when he does get hit he goes down quite quickly. In this new edition he goes down a lot quicker to AoE.

 

Obviously if you don’t want to increase your other defences to all attacks to make your character concept a little odd (e.g. “well normally when you do hit him 1 attempt in 100 times with a punch he usually goes down, but not anymore, why is that??”). You start playing the new edition like any other by adapting your character concept by adding defences with only available when defending against AoE limitations. So you can have the pre-mentioned Desolidification or any number of increased DCV, PD/ED, Damage negation, damage reduction etc. only for AoE. So you’re fast moving concept high DCV characters have some defence against AoE.

 

New rules, so new power concepts, so new character costs for the new edition.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Being new to the Hero system and 6th in general I have the most knowledge of 6th. So to me it seems logical that the defences of a character are a combination of DCV / DMCV and other defensive powers to cover single and AoE attacks. And it also seems logical that hitting a person with an AoE is easier than with a single shot (but how easy should it be????). You get hit' date=' your other defences take over.[/font']

 

A character with high DCV / DMCV and low other defences simulates a speedster character. Most of his defence is not being hit and apparently copes a lot better to AoE in previous systems. But when he does get hit he goes down quite quickly. In this new edition he goes down a lot quicker to AoE.

 

Obviously if you don’t want to increase your other defences to all attacks to make your character concept a little odd (e.g. “well normally when you do hit him 1 attempt in 100 times with a punch he usually goes down, but not anymore, why is that??”). You start playing the new edition like any other by adapting your character concept by adding defences with only available when defending against AoE limitations. So you can have the pre-mentioned Desolidification or any number of increased DCV, PD/ED, Damage negation, damage reduction etc. only for AoE. So you’re fast moving concept high DCV characters have some defence against AoE.

 

New rules, so new power concepts, so new character costs for the new edition.

 

Nice to see a newbie getting it. BTW, the only major change from 5th to 6th in regard to defenses is the introduction of Damage Negation. So your statement is equally valid for 5th edition.

[Tasha]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Just disalowing Frameworks already would do that. Like I said: Variable Slot is bascially a -4 Limitation, Fixed slot a -9.

When you don't have that option anymore, you have to add a lot of limitations just to make your 50 AP Spell somewhat payable.

 

The issue that I have with Disallowing Frameworks (and powerpools for that matter) with FH magic systems is that it severely cripples the Mage Archetype. The Mage ends up paying for a few spells, which are usually an attack, a defense and maybe something more interesting. They then have little to no points to pay for other skills they should have. While all non spell casters end up with Free armor and Weapons. Those archetypes end up with so many extra points they often wonder what they are going to do with them. Sorry, Frameworks aren't that difficult (Powerpools maybe).

 

Getting a good handle on the rules and how to identify what abilities are balanced for the game and what abilities are not is part of the learning process for every GM. Also, part of that is how to build encounters that challenge the players.

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Perhaps it's all that much easier with Fantasy Hero, Genre Books or other supplements at your disposal.

 

But where do they not get items? Magic Items that require a Magic Skill Roll are pretty easy to build (System-wise) and could be as rare as good weapon.

[casualplayer]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Some great points have been made' date=' but my favorite ways to limit AOE's: Enforce friendly fire and collateral damage. If the wizard throws a fireball, have it set fire to and burn down the palace. Or enforce other limitations on magic; extra time, focus, etc. and use those to limit the spellcasters from dominating everything. Have them face an enemy on occasion who has the ability to turn their magic against them, or enemies resistant to magic but less capable in HTH combat.[/quote']

 

This. Also, if you are close enough to have no range modifiers to hit a DCV 3 spot with your Area of Effect attack you are quite possibly in your own blast radius. Or your companions might be. Or the mystical cloak or last scrap of the treasure map that the adversary had, and was meant to be spoils for the victory, goes up in smoke due to non-discriminate use of force. Or the spell might get mystically Deflected right back to the spellcaster's own feet.

 

Lots of ways to discourage people who think grenades are precision weaponry.

[Tasha]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

AOE's are the game's way to tell combatants to not stand so close together.

 

A way to also negate some AOE advantage is to have the Baddies hide and then spring an ambush on the Players (from within 3 hexes or less). With the Combatants spread out to negate some advantages of the AOE. Also having battles in buildings with small rooms and corridors are also places that AOE's are problematic.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

AOE's are the game's way to tell combatants to not stand so close together.

 

 

 

Don't stand, don't stand so

Don't stand so close to me

 

Or I'll hit you with my AOE

[Zeropoint]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Egad! There must be orcs near!

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

A way to also negate some AOE advantage is to have the Baddies hide and then spring an ambush on the Players (from within 3 hexes or less). With the Combatants spread out to negate some advantages of the AOE. Also having battles in buildings with small rooms and corridors are also places that AOE's are problematic.

As long as the characters have a way to circumvent that (by spottng the abush or somehow changing the place for the fight to outside), this is just a legal tactic on the side of the enemy.

Sometimes grenades/fireballs are more usfull for getting the enemy out of cover, than for killing them.

[Martin2]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Nice to see a newbie getting it. BTW' date=' the only major change from 5th to 6th in regard to defenses is the introduction of Damage Negation. So your statement is equally valid for 5th edition. [/quote']

 

I do have 25 years experience of other systems as well .

 

Also I am a scientist and the Hero System is a science in its own way.

 

[Kruhl Sentru]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Wow, I never really expected quite this many responses. I think most of my problems were stemming from 2 areas: lack of experience with the HERO System in particular, and a lack of the Fantasy HERO book (which I now have, have read relatively thoroughly, and now I've applied several suggestions from it). To be honest, I'd highly recommend the appropriate genre books to anyone who plans to run a HERO game, as it makes a world of difference.

 

Speaking of which, I've ordered in the HERO System Martial Arts book, which should also be able to help with the non-magic user side of things. That, and the use of various talents from the Fantasy Hero book should help as well. I'd probably get the advanced player's guide next, but I'm thinking I'd better wait before applying ideas from it so I don't overwhelm my players with new rules (especially since they are being applied mid-game in order to save the plot-line).

 

I'm actually not really all that new of a GM (though I only have about 8 years experience so far), it's just that I've never run in a system like this. To me, the HERO system feels more like a set of optional rules with a few core mechanics, rather than the hard-set set of rules that other systems usually have. Still, this is my favorite system so far, despite it requiring a bit of extra work on the side of the GM to make it work. My campaign, for instance, will involve mostly fantasy fiction, but it also has some elements of modern technology and future technology thrown in at strategic locations. Then, there's the fun of making up stuff as you go, like a clockwork crossbow turret of gnomish design, or the similarly made clockwork golem that sought to avenge its master's fallen friend. Other systems can make it hard to have the flexibility necessary for such outlandish creations.

 

Well anyways, thanks for all the information and responses! It has helped generate quite a few ideas for balancing things out as they come up.

[Christopher]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

I agree with you, totally.

 

With Martial Arts and the Genre Book you should be fine for the moment, that's already a lot of options.

 

Your analysis of the system is very true.

That's the fun of a fully generic system: You can build a Platypus, clockwork golem or whatever else you can imagine. And as long as you mind the general rules for creation in mind (AP limits, DC Limits) there is a good chance you never run into balacing issues while doing it.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

Congratulations, Kruhl... you've taken your first step into a larger universe

[Lezentauw]

Re: Counters to problems? (Such as AoE spam and magic overuse)

 

The best way to make sure you don't run into problems with magic is to set up the system so that magical effects have sufficient limitations to keep them from ruining the game. In terms of magic overuse this could be increased endurance cost for spells' date=' limited charges on the MP (in this case) that automatically recover after X cool-off period, the use of material components for spells, or special requirements like ritual magic that mean magic can only be used under specific circumstances. You can combine all of these. Another possibility is some sort of cumulative side-effect that builds up as magic is used (like a transform with the fast healing modifier slapped on). I think the problem with magic overuse is often more not leveraging the system that the system itself.[/quote']

 

I find that I prefer Sword & Sorcery styles the most. So LTE is the first limiting requirement of any spell. Any spell that takes the AoE advatage, must also take Increased END. Now a 50 AP spell costs 10 END, using the normal Heroic setup. As you must use your personal END to power the spells, a couple of fireballs would easily drain your endurance for quite a while.

 

For advantages like selective, I would required Extra Time. If you don't think that is enough add in another increase of Increased END.

 

 

 

A returning player, made this comment when he started to see the casters in action, "Wow, this is the first time that I actually have seen the Raistlin affect incorporated into a magic system."