My Elves Are Different!

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

And as long as I'm wondering about things...

 

Why is it that Elves generate discussions like this, so much more than Dwarves, Goblins, Trolls, Hobbits, or other fantasy humanoids that could be player characters?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius Alexander never wonders why palindromedaries generate so many taglines, and that lack of curiosity suits the palindromedaries just fine.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Well' date=' yes, but now you've shifted the goalposts to real-life cultural references.[/quote']

 

I'm not shifting the goalposts, just repeating what I've been saying all along. Perhaps I took your earlier post

 

I don't really see it that way. I don't like equating 'race' with 'personality' or 'culture'. I have no problems with someone playing an elf (of any stripe), or any race, however he wants to. I certainly wouldn't penalize him for it.

 

as more absolute than you meant, but it sounded to me like you thought Islamic elves in Middle-Earth were fine. Apparently I was mistaken, but my point is that angry, or Islamic, or wild and carefree elves in that setting would be extremely unusual, at best.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Why is it that Elves generate discussions like this, so much more than Dwarves, Goblins, Trolls, Hobbits, or other fantasy humanoids that could be player characters?

 

I can only speak from my own experience, but in my own experience, players who prefer to play elves tend to be a bit more zealous about it than those who prefer playing other races, or a variety of races. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned players who wouldn't play if they couldn't play a chaotic selfish D&D elf. I know of other players who literally wouldn't play an elf that didn't have pointy ears. (But then again, would it be an elf without pointy ears? )

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I'm not shifting the goalposts, just repeating what I've been saying all along. Perhaps I took your earlier post

 

 

 

as more absolute than you meant, but it sounded to me like you thought Islamic elves in Middle-Earth were fine. Apparently I was mistaken, but my point is that angry, or Islamic, or wild and carefree elves in that setting would be extremely unusual, at best.

 

I wouldn't consider an Islamic elf in ME fine, just because there's no Islamic religion. An angry and fundamentalist elven member of whatever religions may exist in that setting would be fine. A wild and carefree elf in that setting would be fine. A clean-shaven non-alcoholic dwarf would be fine. A brave, slender, non-lazy hobbit would be fine. A non-brutish orc would be fine. Would they be atypical? Yes. Would they be unusual? Yes. Should they be prohibited or discouraged? My opinion is 'no'.

 

Yes, I probably shouldn't have spoken in absolutes, but I figured 'within reason' went without saying.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I can only speak from my own experience' date=' but in my own experience, players who prefer to play elves tend to be a bit more zealous about it than those who prefer playing other races, or a variety of races. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned players who wouldn't play if they couldn't play a chaotic selfish D&D elf. I know of other players who literally wouldn't play an elf that didn't have pointy ears. (But then again, would it be an elf without pointy ears? )[/quote']

 

Yes, but what I'm wondering is why Elves arouse such powerful emotional reactions? Vondy for instance has an excellent story about a player who tried to play an Elf in a totally inappropriate 1950's weird power/espionage conspiracy/"atomic horror" game, to the extent that when (finally) convinced that he was just not going to be allowed to do so, he suggested a shapeshifter character instead - and at the earliest opportunity, shapeshifted into the form of an Elf.

 

Why do we not hear such stories about, say, Dwarves?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that some people get pretty passionate about Vampires too....

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Pure speculation:

Elves are supposed to be 'perfect'. Depending on your mythological or fictional source, the typical elf immortal or nearly so, immune to disease, universally handsome ('all bishounen', if you wish), agile, tall, graceful, never forget anything, easily master any task put before them, master artisans, experts in wizardry, and swordplay, and archery, and in tune with nature spirts ... and that gives them the excuse to be utterly smug and obnoxiously condescending to everybody around them. So, you get what many people consider virtual physical perfection, potential mental perfection, AND nobody raises a fuss when you act like a complete douche to everybody around you. 'Elves just do that.' And people are, of course, envious of elves for their perfection, so the player gets (or thinks he'll get) everybody fawning all over him.

 

So, elves are Mary Sues in a lot of ways.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I wouldn't consider an Islamic elf in ME fine' date=' just because there's no Islamic religion. An angry and fundamentalist elven member of whatever religions may exist in that setting would be fine. A wild and carefree elf in that setting would be fine. A clean-shaven non-alcoholic dwarf would be fine. A brave, slender, non-lazy hobbit would be fine. A non-brutish orc would be fine. Would they be atypical? Yes. Would they be unusual? Yes. Should they be prohibited or discouraged? My opinion is 'no'.[/quote']

 

My opinion is 'yes', but I respect yours and feel it is mainly a matter of degree.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Funny you should say that...I distinctly remember once calling Elves "a race of Mary Janes." I was quickly corrected of course. That was in the context of trying to exlain why some people hate Elves so much.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Mary Jane just laughed and laughed

[Enforcer84]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Yes, but what I'm wondering is why Elves arouse such powerful emotional reactions? Vondy for instance has an excellent story about a player who tried to play an Elf in a totally inappropriate 1950's weird power/espionage conspiracy/"atomic horror" game, to the extent that when (finally) convinced that he was just not going to be allowed to do so, he suggested a shapeshifter character instead - and at the earliest opportunity, shapeshifted into the form of an Elf.

 

Why do we not hear such stories about, say, Dwarves?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that some people get pretty passionate about Vampires too....

 

Elves get laid. Dwarves don't

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Pure speculation:

Elves are supposed to be 'perfect'. Depending on your mythological or fictional source, the typical elf immortal or nearly so, immune to disease, universally handsome ('all bishounen', if you wish), agile, tall, graceful, never forget anything, easily master any task put before them, master artisans, experts in wizardry, and swordplay, and archery, and in tune with nature spirts ... and that gives them the excuse to be utterly smug and obnoxiously condescending to everybody around them. So, you get what many people consider virtual physical perfection, potential mental perfection, AND nobody raises a fuss when you act like a complete douche to everybody around you. 'Elves just do that.' And people are, of course, envious of elves for their perfection, so the player gets (or thinks he'll get) everybody fawning all over him.

 

So, elves are Mary Sues in a lot of ways.

 

QFT. I think this combination of elven traits does tend to attract certain types of player, including players with image issues, players with inferiority issues, lazy players who want to play a nonhuman that's still basically a human, and of course the munchkins. Not that a significant percentage of elf players are any of these, but for some reason--again, in my experience--'perfect' elves just seem to draw more of these players than other races.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

True, but I'm one of the sorts who doesn't really think there's a wrong reason to play whatever race you want in a fantasy game. Whether it's just 'cause you think they look cool, you like the mechanics, you want to roleplay that kind of creature, you want to subvert the traditional roleplay of that kind of creature ... to me, it's the player's decision.

[Burrito Boy]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

My elf was different because he wore a nest on his head and his girlfriend was a hummingbird. Man, I loved that character.

[Barwickian]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

My elves dislike bloodshed and killing. Their primary defensive spell is a compound flash and transform (permanent blindness).

 

Thus it is often said that elf-abuse makes you go blind.

[dmjalund]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Of course it beggars the question: If you want to play an unelflike elf, why play an elf?

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I still need to figure out these export formats...

 

[ATTACH]38909[/ATTACH]

 

Character Name Keebler Elf

 

CHARACTERISTICS

Val Char Points Roll

5 STR -5 10-

13 DEX 6 12-

10 CON 0 11-

10 INT 0 11-

10 EGO 0 11-

10 PRE 0 11-

 

3 OCV 0

6 DCV 0

3 OMCV 0

3 DMCV 0

2 SPD 0

 

2+3 PD 0

2+3 ED 0

4 REC 0

20 END 0

8 BODY -2 Total Cost

18 STUN -1 -5

CURRENT STATUS

Maximum Current

END 20

BODY 8

STUN 18

 

EXPERIENCE POINTS

Base Points 10

Complication Points 15

Total Experience Earned 0

Experience Spent 0

Experience Unspent 0

 

VITAL INFORMATION

HTH damage (STR/5)d6: 1d6

Lift: 50.0kg STR END Cost: 1

Phases: 6, 12

 

Base OCV 3 Base DCV 6

Base OMCV 3 Base DMCV 3

 

Combat Skill levels:

Presence Attack (PRE/5)d6: 2d6

 

MOVEMENT

Type Combat Noncombat

Run (12m) 10m 20m

Swim (4m) 4m 8m

H. Leap (4m) 2m 4m

V. Leap (2m) 1m

 

 

DEFENSES

Type Amount/Effect

Normal PD 2/5

Resistant PD 0/3

Normal ED 2/5

Resistant ED 0/3

 

SKILLS, PERKS, & TALENTS

Cost Name Roll

Keebler Cultural Template

3 1) Elven Magic: Power: Baking 11-

0 2) PS: Baker 11-

 

4 Hollow Tree: Base

 

7 Total Skills, Perks, & Talents Cost

 

POWERS AND EQUIPMENT

Cost Name Power/Equipment END

0 Keebler Racial Template

7 1) +3 DCV (15 Active Points); Perceivable (Noticeably short; -½), Limited Power Not in hand to hand combat with creatures the same size or smaller (-½)

10 2) Elven Luck Luck 2d6 0

6 3) Elven Luck Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

23 Total Powers/Equipment Cost

 

MATCHING COMPLICATIONS (25)

Cost Complication Roll

10 Base Points

5 Physical Complication: Short (Infrequently; Barely Impairing)

5 Distinctive Features: Keebler Elf (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)

5 As Appropriate (Subject to Orders, Obsessed with baking good cookies, etc.)

 

25 Total Complications Points

 

 

Background/History: Keebler Elves live and work underground, accessing the surface via hollow trees. They are best known as bakers.

 

Quote: "Have a cookie. They're uncommonly good!"

 

Powers/tactics: This write up represents a minimal Keebler Elf. Most will have, at least, a few more skills. Leaders are apt to possess all manner of mysterious magical powers, usually related to baking.

 

Campaign Use: Built on 10 Base Points plus 15 pts in Complications for a total of 25 pts, a standard Keebler Elf meets the guidelines for a "Standard Normal."

 

 

Keebler Elves are a trademark of the Keebler Company, a division of Kellogg. Character sheet by

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Escafarc]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Indeed.

 

In many mythological traditions elves and elf-like beings are often faerie nobility. They are essentially magic made flesh. They are most certainly beings that live in both the physical and the spiritual (faerie) realms simultaneously. This is something I wish more fantasy fiction or RPG's would take into consideration.

I'd like to recomend Ash by Malinda Lo it's Cinderella with a twist but the fairy/elfs have a other-worldly quality.

 

 

[Escafarc]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

As for "Elf-hate" It started back in the AD&D1E days with the "uber-elves" that came out of all the splat books plus the "Human-in-a-rubber-suit" Syndrome pretty much made me get rid of non-humans in my games until just resently.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Of course it beggars the question: If you want to play an unelflike elf' date=' why play an elf?[/quote']

 

Maybe you just like what they look like. Maybe you want to subvert the stereotype. Does it really matter? So long as the player's having fun with the character, it's not a big deal.

[Orion]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Maybe you just like what they look like. Maybe you want to subvert the stereotype. Does it really matter? So long as the player's having fun with the character' date=' it's not a big deal.[/quote']

 

To an extent, this is usually true. It's when the player insists on playing something so different than the norm that it starts to interfere with either the campaign concept or the enjoyment of the GM and other players that it becomes a problem. With some players, you know this will never happen. With others, you have to be more careful. I think it also depends a lot on the style of the campaign. If it is more about playing the rules, then it will have less of an effect. If it is more about cooperative storytelling, then the characters need to be more in tune with the world. I've never cared why a character type was chosen, just what was done with it after.

 

My orcs are evil. Every last one of them. The stereotype cannot be subverted. Doesn't matter how good of a concept for an orc character someone has, it cannot work in my campaign world. There are also certain expectations for elves and dwarves. My superhero world does not allow player characters to have strong codes vs killing or honor complexes. There's a whole slew of character types down, just right there. Doesn't matter how good the concept is, how much fun the player would have, or why they want to play that type. Won't be allowed in my current campaign world. Doesn't mean we can't start another campaign world where it is allowed, but the players are expected to stay within the world guidelines once those are established.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Well, firstly, 'playing the rules' and 'cooperative storytelling' are not mutually exclusive or inversely proportional. Just because you want a mechanically efficient and useful character doesn't mean you're bad at roleplay, and having a good roleplaying character doesn't mean it has to be weak. Let's get that fallacy out of the way first and foremost.

 

I would never want to limit my PCs that heavily. I'm a big fan of extending as much freedom to my players as possible; if they want to play an offbeat character, that should be inspiring to a GM, not troublesome. I like diversity and individuality in PCs.

[Enforcer84]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

To an extent, this is usually true. It's when the player insists on playing something so different than the norm that it starts to interfere with either the campaign concept or the enjoyment of the GM and other players that it becomes a problem. With some players, you know this will never happen. With others, you have to be more careful. I think it also depends a lot on the style of the campaign. If it is more about playing the rules, then it will have less of an effect. If it is more about cooperative storytelling, then the characters need to be more in tune with the world. I've never cared why a character type was chosen, just what was done with it after.

 

My orcs are evil. Every last one of them. The stereotype cannot be subverted. Doesn't matter how good of a concept for an orc character someone has, it cannot work in my campaign world. There are also certain expectations for elves and dwarves. My superhero world does not allow player characters to have strong codes vs killing or honor complexes. There's a whole slew of character types down, just right there. Doesn't matter how good the concept is, how much fun the player would have, or why they want to play that type. Won't be allowed in my current campaign world. Doesn't mean we can't start another campaign world where it is allowed, but the players are expected to stay within the world guidelines once those are established.

 

Well as long as you make these known before hand I can't see the players really being upset. That said I'd probably decline to play.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Y'know, there's something I've noticed in my gaming lately and I wanted to know if anyone else was seeing it -

 

Human player characters are becoming downright rare.

 

 

Not only are there more alternatives to playing a Human than I can keep track of, "Human" seems to be a downright unpopular choice - to the point I've felt like I get funny looks for playing one.

 

 

Is this just a local thing, or have any of the rest of you noticed a tendency in fantasy games for Human player characters to become an endangered species?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary isn't really Human, but plays one in a role playing game

[Escafarc]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

You're not the only one. And it's been like that for quite awhile. I've been the only human in games too.

[Vondy]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I run humans only games. For PCs, at least.

[Escafarc]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I run humans only games. For PCs' date=' at least.[/quote']

 

Most of my games for the last 20 years or so have been human only. I think the only reason I get away with it is the other GMs' games in our group have a lot of non-human races.