My Elves Are Different!

[Enforcer84]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

And two people can get different impressions from the same source materiel.

 

Want to know what MY most powerful impressions of Legolas are?

 

One is from the moment the Fellowship comes into a countryside that had been the home of Elves - millenia ago. And Legolas knows it. Not because he knows Elvish history - he knows because the land is telling him. He knows his people lived there long ago - so long ago that the beasts and birds have forgotten, and they do not recognize him. So long ago even the trees had forgotten, and he is a stranger to them. But the stone of the land still remembers Elves, and recognizes him, and sighs about the old days: "Deep they delved us, high they builded us, fair they wrought us; but they are gone."

 

And to me, the implication is, this is going on all the time. He is presumably always in communion with his environment; he takes it in stride that the stones under his feet are talking to him, and only mentions it because what they are saying is of interest.

 

The other is when they are on the Paths of the Dead. Legolas is described as the only one completely unafraid of the ghosts, because he is the only one who sees them clearly as what they are. This, and a few other hints in the books, reveal that the Elves live and experience simultaneously in "two worlds," the same world of the common senses of Men and Dwarves, and the "spiritual" or "otherworld" realm that is the reality of ghosts and Ringwraiths.

 

 

So when someone says "give a Human pointy ears and a long life and you've got an Elf" I think, there is someone with no clue what an Elf is.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Most people have no clue what a palindromedary is.

 

So my pointy eared humans I should call Longlivers.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

It has always annoyed me greatly when some writer creates something new, and then gives it the name of something widely recognized, yet very different. Yeah, your elves are different - because they ain't elves! Superman better have a reporter girlfriend and have a code vs killing, and Conan must love wenches and beer.

 

I have no problem with the creating of new stuff, but it comes off as a bait and switch when they use the old name for something new. You tell me I'm going to be battling orcs, and I will have certain expectations. Doesn't matter how many times you explain to me these orcs are completely different, it will still cause a disconnect when you tell me an orc does not act as they always have in my past experience. New Coke would have been an easier sell if it hadn't been called Coke, and reusing a old name is no easier to accept.

 

I've never had that problem, myself ... as far as I'm concerned, what that world calls its X are its Xs, regardless of its previous connotations. Probably a combination of my regular playing of D&D, which has always taken mythological creatures and worked them over in a dark alley to fit the needs of the game, and a general lack of interest or concern about mythology in the first place. "In this world, vampires don't drink blood, they drain emotional energy," for example, doesn't bother me. That's a (Worldname) Vampire, which is different from a Mythological Vampire or a D&D Vampire or a WoD Vampire or a Champions Universe Vampire. No big.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I appreciated how fiction author Poul Anderson drew from pagan European traditions for the Elves in his novel The Broken Sword; beautiful and magically powerful' date=' but also fickle and ruthless, as perilous to trust as to cross.[/quote']

 

Indeed, another perfect example, and very much the inspiration for how we ran the Alfar in our Epic Norse campaign

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

If I create something Enforcer thinks is Elf-like but I don't call it an Elf, he's going to call me silly. If I do call it Elf but Orion thinks it's not Elf-like enough, he's annoyed.

 

 

I like what Ockham's Spoon said - give it a unique twist without twisting it so far it's broken. The question of course is, at what point is it "broken" - when is an Elf, not an Elf?

 

 

For purposes of fantasy roleplaying, an Elf is still an Elf as long as you can tell a player it's an Elf and they can play it without being irritated or getting it wrong. "Elf" is primarily useful as a shorthand term to describe a particular fantasy race in one syllable. You can probably expect to deviate from this in one way and still be able to call it an Elf, but only if the deviation doesn't detract from the typical Elven features of agility, omniscience, beauty, and pointy ears.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Nonetheless I think countless people - myself included - have some desire to do "something different" if not "something original." Different is easy, but is a tricky path to follow without not really making things different at all. Original, on the other hand, is not easy at all, except when it happens accidentally.

 

All of this has been done before, and all of it will be done again, to steal (and then butcher) a phrase.

[dmjalund]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I love my elf

I want you to love me

When I'm feelin' down

I want you above me

I search my elf

I want you to find me

I forget my elf

I want you to remind me

[Darbor]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

My ELF is different.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Nonetheless I think countless people - myself included - have some desire to do "something different" if not "something original." Different is easy' date=' but is a tricky path to follow without not really making things different at all. [i']Original[/i], on the other hand, is not easy at all, except when it happens accidentally.

 

The trouble comes when you take your originality to an RPG and hope that the other players will actually put in the effort to understand it. It can already be a really steep learning curve for players to get their heads around a new setting; having them play a totally original race on top of that might be asking too much.

 

And then there are those players that are so bent on playing (D&D) elves that they'll play that, or nothing.

[Vondy]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

The trouble comes when you take your originality to an RPG and hope that the other players will actually put in the effort to understand it. It can already be a really steep learning curve for players to get their heads around a new setting; having them play a totally original race on top of that might be asking too much.

 

And then there are those players that are so bent on playing (D&D) elves that they'll play that, or nothing.

 

I can't say too much about that. I'd be more than happy playing nothing but Warforged for the rest of my fantasy-gaming life.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Problem is, players who want to play elves usually want to play elves, not different elves.

 

And another problem is...what do they consider elves?

 

And then there are those players that are so bent on playing (D&D) elves that they'll play that' date=' or nothing. [/quote']

 

And I suspect if I were running Middle Earth and gave them a Tollkein Elf to play....

 

For purposes of fantasy roleplaying' date=' an Elf is still an Elf as long as you can tell a player it's an Elf and they can play it without being irritated or getting it wrong. "Elf" is primarily useful as a shorthand term to describe a particular fantasy race in one syllable. You can probably expect to deviate from this in one way and still be able to call it an Elf, but only if the deviation doesn't detract from the typical Elven features of agility, omniscience, beauty, and pointy ears.[/quote']

 

They'd be irritated and get it wrong, not necessarily in that order.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I won't even think of giving them a palindromedary

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

It's their character; so long as it's played consistently with its Psych Lims and whatnot, they can't 'do it wrong'.

[Clonus]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Of course not everything that is called an elf is a Tolkien derived elf in the first place. Some of them make toys and cookies.

[dmjalund]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

Of course not everything that is called an elf is a Tolkien derived elf in the first place. Some of them make toys and cookies.

Or make shoes.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

It's their character; so long as it's played consistently with its Psych Lims and whatnot' date=' they can't 'do it wrong'.[/quote']

 

They can if they're playing a non-elf as an elf. Or if they're playing a Tolkien elf as a D&D elf. Ironically, even though D&D elves are obviously derived from Tolkien's, the shortcomings of that system meant that D&D elves lost the philosophy and the connection with nature that were critical to the racial identity in LOTR. D&D elves thus became nimble, immortal adventurers with good eyesight and no drawbacks other than a strange learning disability reflected in their experience table. A D&D elf player might already bristle at the psych lims "imposed" on elves in a Tolkien campaign. I can't even imagine the reaction if you gave him a Keebler elf to play, let alone an original race that the GM came up with.

[Ragitsu]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

My elves are so different, they're nonexistent.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

They can if they're playing a non-elf as an elf. Or if they're playing a Tolkien elf as a D&D elf. Ironically' date=' even though D&D elves are obviously derived from Tolkien's, the shortcomings of that system meant that D&D elves lost the philosophy and the connection with nature that were critical to the racial identity in LOTR. D&D elves thus became nimble, immortal adventurers with good eyesight and no drawbacks other than a strange learning disability reflected in their experience table. A D&D elf player might already bristle at the psych lims "imposed" on elves in a Tolkien campaign. I can't even imagine the reaction if you gave him a Keebler elf to play, let alone an original race that the GM came up with.[/quote']

 

I don't really see it that way. I don't like equating 'race' with 'personality' or 'culture'. I have no problems with someone playing an elf (of any stripe), or any race, however he wants to. I certainly wouldn't penalize him for it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

And two people can get different impressions from the same source materiel.

 

Want to know what MY most powerful impressions of Legolas are?

 

One is from the moment the Fellowship comes into a countryside that had been the home of Elves - millenia ago. And Legolas knows it. Not because he knows Elvish history - he knows because the land is telling him. He knows his people lived there long ago - so long ago that the beasts and birds have forgotten, and they do not recognize him. So long ago even the trees had forgotten, and he is a stranger to them. But the stone of the land still remembers Elves, and recognizes him, and sighs about the old days: "Deep they delved us, high they builded us, fair they wrought us; but they are gone."

 

And to me, the implication is, this is going on all the time. He is presumably always in communion with his environment; he takes it in stride that the stones under his feet are talking to him, and only mentions it because what they are saying is of interest.

 

The other is when they are on the Paths of the Dead. Legolas is described as the only one completely unafraid of the ghosts, because he is the only one who sees them clearly as what they are. This, and a few other hints in the books, reveal that the Elves live and experience simultaneously in "two worlds," the same world of the common senses of Men and Dwarves, and the "spiritual" or "otherworld" realm that is the reality of ghosts and Ringwraiths.

 

 

So when someone says "give a Human pointy ears and a long life and you've got an Elf" I think, there is someone with no clue what an Elf is.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Most people have no clue what a palindromedary is.

 

Indeed.

 

In many mythological traditions elves and elf-like beings are often faerie nobility. They are essentially magic made flesh. They are most certainly beings that live in both the physical and the spiritual (faerie) realms simultaneously. This is something I wish more fantasy fiction or RPG's would take into consideration.

[Enforcer84]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

They can if they're playing a non-elf as an elf. Or if they're playing a Tolkien elf as a D&D elf. Ironically' date=' even though D&D elves are obviously derived from Tolkien's, the shortcomings of that system meant that D&D elves lost the philosophy and the connection with nature that were critical to the racial identity in LOTR. D&D elves thus became nimble, immortal adventurers with good eyesight and no drawbacks other than a strange learning disability reflected in their experience table. A D&D elf player might already bristle at the psych lims "imposed" on elves in a Tolkien campaign. I can't even imagine the reaction if you gave him a Keebler elf to play, let alone an original race that the GM came up with.[/quote']

 

I'd have to disagree.

[Lucius]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I've already done Chocolate Orcs, I suppose I could do Keebler Elves

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it's a toss up as to whether he'll do it or not.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I don't really see it that way. I don't like equating 'race' with 'personality' or 'culture'. I have no problems with someone playing an elf (of any stripe)' date=' or any race, however he wants to. I certainly wouldn't penalize him for it.[/quote']

 

I would argue that in some settings race does equal personality and culture. The obvious example is Legolas, who was such a freak that he would actually talk to a dwarf. A loud, drunken, wenching elf would be kind of out of place in Middle-Earth.

 

Anyway, since we can barely even agree on a standard definition of 'elf' among ourselves, it seems even clearer to me that you can't be too original with your elves if you still want to call them that. As it is, it seems we already have to specify a subtype of elf, whether that be Tolkien, D&D, Santa, Unseelie, or whatnot.

[Enforcer84]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I would argue that in some settings race does equal personality and culture. The obvious example is Legolas' date=' who was such a freak that he would actually talk to a [i']dwarf.[/i] A loud, drunken, wenching elf would be kind of out of place in Middle-Earth.

 

Anyway, since we can barely even agree on a standard definition of 'elf' among ourselves, it seems even clearer to me that you can't be too original with your elves if you still want to call them that. As it is, it seems we already have to specify a subtype of elf, whether that be Tolkien, D&D, Santa, Unseelie, or whatnot.

 

So all your humans have to play the same?

Sorry, I'll elaborate since I'm not busy getting my ass kicked in PVP at the moment.

 

I don't see the race - culture line being anymore important than the race - "alignment" (or ethics, or whatever you want to call it.)

There are precious few "You're playing X wrong" scenarios that I really buy - and the bulk of those are superheroic genre anyway. Though I'm not the cosmic GM so...my opinion might be worth squat in the cosmic scheme of things.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

I would argue that in some settings race does equal personality and culture. The obvious example is Legolas' date=' who was such a freak that he would actually talk to a [i']dwarf.[/i] A loud, drunken, wenching elf would be kind of out of place in Middle-Earth.

 

Aren't PCs by definition out of the ordinary, though? Yes, that character would be unusual, probably unliked, possibly even outcast or exiled. That's not the same thing as saying it shouldn't be allowed or is doing it 'wrong' or that the person playing it should be penalized* for making that character choice.

 

*Outside of maybe, in HERO, taking a Negative Reputation or Social Limitation for being 'that weird elf'.

[Old Man]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

So all your humans have to play the same?

 

My humans don't, but like I said, it's specific to the setting. To go back to the tired example, if I were in a Tolkien campaign and another player tried to play an elf that was an angry Islamic fundamentalist jihadi or some other inappropriate culture or personality, I would regard it as annoying, if not sabotage. That might work in another setting, but not Middle-Earth. I'd have the same problem if someone tried to play a human Taoist monk in Harn or a Warforged redneck in Eberron.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Elves Are Different!

 

My humans don't' date=' but like I said, it's specific to the setting. To go back to the tired example, if I were in a Tolkien campaign and another player tried to play an elf that was an angry Islamic fundamentalist jihadi or some other inappropriate [i']culture[/i] or personality, I would regard it as annoying, if not sabotage. That might work in another setting, but not Middle-Earth. I'd have the same problem if someone tried to play a human Taoist monk in Harn or a Warforged redneck in Eberron.

 

Well, yes, but now you've shifted the goalposts to real-life cultural references. Obviously, if the religion of Islam doesn't exist in the setting, that's a no-no. However, an elf who is angry, violent, and genocidal in actions shouldn't be a problem (as a villain, of course), nor should a Harn human who is introspective and seeking philosophical enlightenment, nor should a Warforged who displays a remarkable lack of sophistication (to quote Mr. Foxworthy) an issue in Eberron.

 

An elf screaming 'Allah abu Jihad!' is a significantly different issue from one who is simply more outgoing and extroverted than standardized kin.