Half Dice Options

[Jagged]

Quickie (I think)

 

In another forum it was suggested to me that if you have a killing attack with a half die, you had the option of taking d6-1 instead of 1/2.

 

Now I know the damage table lists 1/2 and d6-1 against the same Damage Class but I thought the -1 option existed only for when you needed to convert weapons into DCs. After all, if d6-1 is an option why would you ever want 1/2?

 

Do 5E and 6 differ in any regard on this?

 

Are their rules and point levels that result in d6-1 rather than 1/2?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

I've toyed with breaking DC's down into:

 

+1/3d6 - 1 (with zero being an option arising half the time)

+1

+1/2d6

+1d6-1

+1d6

 

at costs of 1 to 5 points for normal damage and 3 to 15 points for killing damage.

[Christopher]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Used the PDF seaarch function, this it what I found out:

The example character "Firewing" (6E1 19) has a HKA with 3d6-1, after STR. But there is no clear mentioning of the AP for that power.

 

The "Semiautomatic .45 Handgun" (6E1 242) is build as RKA 2d6-1. But the active points are slightly off (with 25 Base Points KA and +1/4 Advantage it should be 31, but it is 34 - wich is also to few for a 30 BP RKA with +1/4 Advantage).

 

In the tables for electricity damage, "Well grounded" (6E2 194)

Standart Current has 1/2d6 Killing Damage

Heavy has 1d6-1 Killing Damage

 

On 6E2 199 is an exampel that adding 2 DC to a 1d6-1 attack makes it a 1d6+1. it sugested the attack has 2 DC it self (it is the example for the "no more than double the DC from Bonus DC" Rule).

 

Some of the example weapons from 6E2 use 1/2d6, whiel other use 1d6-1. (Example Knife vs. Dagger/Dirk). Again the AP for the d6-1 seem higher than they should be (especially with Knife and Dagger).

 

Possible effects of 1/2d6 vs. 1d6-1:

1/2d6 has 1/3 chance to deal 1 Body, 1/3 for 2 Body, 1/3 for 3 Body.

1d6-1 has 1/6 for 0 Body, 1/6 for 1 Body, 1/6 for 2 Body, 1/6 for 3 Body, 1/6 for 4 Body, 1/6 for 5 Body.

 

My best bet is that you can indeed choose, even when making the KA. But better ask in the Rules Questions about it.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

I have never liked using the xd6 -1

 

Every instance I have seen has it priced exactly the same as 1/2 d6.

 

I think on average, the d6-1 does more than 1/2 d6, but the d6-1 can be 0 while 1/2d6 cannot. I think it is a draw, really, but again just never liked it.

[dsatow]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Actually, 1d6-1 does a minimum of 1 Body. Its never 0.

[dmjalund]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Actually' date=' 1d6-1 does a minimum of 1 Body. Its never 0.[/quote']reference please

[Christopher]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Actually' date=' 1d6-1 does a minimum of 1 Body. Its never 0.[/quote']

The only mentioning I know ist that when toolkitting the Stun Multiplier to 1d6-1, the minimum result is 1 (so there is always at least Stun = Body).

[Jagged]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Thanks for the responses. I really thought this would be a straight forward "Yes" or "No" question Maybe I will post in the rules section?

[Jagged]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

I have never liked using the xd6 -1

 

Every instance I have seen has it priced exactly the same as 1/2 d6.

 

I think on average, the d6-1 does more than 1/2 d6, but the d6-1 can be 0 while 1/2d6 cannot. I think it is a draw, really, but again just never liked it.

 

I have to agree. Whether or not d6-1 can give 0 or not it still averages better than 1/2 and what are the body rules for d6-1? I can find some for a half die but not for d6-1. So I assume its the same for d6? Which is again much better than a half. So why would a player ever go for a half if d6-1 is allowed?

 

I should add that the reason I am interested is because I am trying to provide some native support for fractions of dice into Maptool and was asked about d6-1. I thought it only existed to provide differential on standard weapons and to allow you to calculate the damage class of a standard weapon. But it seems unclear

[Jagged]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

The only mentioning I know ist that when toolkitting the Stun Multiplier to 1d6-1' date=' the minimum result is 1 (so there is always at least Stun = Body).[/quote']

 

The only rule I can find thats similar is from my 5E that lists a Super option that 2 combat skill levels can provide +1 to the die roll but that the result was never greater than 6. Must admit I've never used that. I've always just done 2 combat skill levels equals +1 damage class, never adding up to more than twice the original.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

I have to agree. Whether or not d6-1 can give 0 or not it still averages better than 1/2 and what are the body rules for d6-1? I can find some for a half die but not for d6-1. So I assume its the same for d6? Which is again much better than a half. So why would a player ever go for a half if d6-1 is allowed?

 

I should add that the reason I am interested is because I am trying to provide some native support for fractions of dice into Maptool and was asked about d6-1. I thought it only existed to provide differential on standard weapons and to allow you to calculate the damage class of a standard weapon. But it seems unclear

 

While I agree d6-1 is superior to 1/2d6, averaging either 2.5 or 2 2/3 (depending on whether you adopt a minimum of 1) versus 2, the difference is 1/2 to 2/3 of 1 point on the die. It's easy enough to rule that 1/2d6 costs 3 points (9 for a KA) and 1d6-1 costs 4 points (12 for a KA) rather than both costing 3 (10 for a KA) if it's that troublesome to you.

[Christopher]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

It's easy enough to rule that 1/2d6 costs 3 points (9 for a KA) and 1d6-1 costs 4 points (12 for a KA) rather than both costing 3 (10 for a KA) if it's that troublesome to you.

In refference to the Semi-Automatic handgun and it's Active Points the "1d6-1 costs 12" seem what was done there. With 27 Base Points and +1/4 Advantage, this would become 34 Active Points.

[Jagged]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

In refference to the Semi-Automatic handgun and it's Active Points the "1d6-1 costs 12" seem what was done there. With 27 Base Points and +1/4 Advantage' date=' this would become 34 Active Points.[/quote']

 

Cool. If thats whats being done i.e 12/15 equals 1d6-1 then thats something I can work with. Cheers all!

[Christopher]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Cool. If thats whats being done i.e 12/15 equals 1d6-1 then thats something I can work with. Cheers all!

And the same thing was done with Dagger/Dirk too (when you asume that it and the Knife have the same +3/4 Advantages, wich is higly likely).

[Jagged]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Are their +1 examples as well? i.e 17/15 equal to 1d6+1?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

I think it's pretty well established that +1 to a killing attack costs 5 points, and 10 points is the cost for 1/2d6.

[Christopher]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Are their +1 examples as well? i.e 17/15 equal to 1d6+1?

Nope. 1d6+1 is 20 Points, as per basic Rules for Killing Attacks.

 

The Progression is:

1 KD - 5 Points

1/2d6 KD - 10

1d-6 KD - 12

1d6 KD - 15

I guess you could try 1/2d6-1 at 7 too, but I don't know if we need it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

The progression is a bit of a dinosaur, and I'm surprised it did not get itself 'grandfathered' in 6e. The fact is that, for a killing attack, 1/2d6 and 1d6-1 are the same according to the system i.e. they are both 2 damage classes. They are clearly not actually the same though as this discussion has explored. It makes more logical sense to remove 1d6-1 from the system than it does to have it cost a different number of points. There is not even any guidance as to how to roll it as damage (i.e. is the minimum roll 0 or 1?)

 

It only seems to be used for killing damage anyway (looking at the table at 6.2.101). Can anyone think of an actual need for the d6-1 mechanic in the system, and I mean by that an actual game mechanic need rather than 'I like getting higher damage totals' one?

 

While we are at it, another related bugbear of mine: 1/2d6 should have a standard effect of 2 rather than 1. At present there is no way to create a standard effect of 5 points in Hero, unless you buy 2d6 and limit the standard damage to 5 rather than 6, which is not a good way to start your day.

 

How it should be:

 

1 DC: 5 points +1 pip damage (average 1), +1 standard effect

2 DCs: 10 points +1/2d6 damage (average 2), +2 standard effect

3 DCs: 15 points +1d6 damage (average 3.5), +3 standard effect

 

This gives a small advantage to buying killing attacks as 'whole dice' in terms of higher average rolled damage per character point, and a small advantage to buying normal attacks in dice multiples of 3. I'm comfortable with that.

[Christopher]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

About Damage Guidance: 1-1 = 0. There is no rule saying otherwise, so normal math applies.

 

I agree with your Standart Effect sugestion, as it goes the basic Progression of 1 Point Body/DC and is still less than rolling it (3.5 per 3 DC). Perhaps the rules is mostly for half dice in not-killing attacks (I am certain there were situations where you could get 8 1/2 d6 blasts).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

How much should a 1 pip stun only normal attack cost? I'm thinking, since Stun now costs a half point per point, that 1 point might make sense. 2 points pegs it slightly overpriced(since a half die, IIRC, costs 3 points). 1.5 points is actually the perfect price point, but half points are kind of a pain to work out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

The progression is a bit of a dinosaur' date=' and I'm surprised it did not get itself 'grandfathered' in 6e. The fact is that, for a killing attack, 1/2d6 and 1d6-1 are the same according to the system i.e. they are both 2 damage classes. They are clearly not actually the same though as this discussion has explored. It makes more logical sense to remove 1d6-1 from the system than it does to have it cost a different number of points. There is not even any guidance as to how to roll it as damage (i.e. is the minimum roll 0 or 1?)[/quote']

 

On the one hand, Sean, I don't see its retention as imperative. That said, why is removing an option superior to reassessing the cost for the option to set them in line? Paying 5 points for +1, 10 points for +1/2d6 (average of +2) and 15 for +1d6 (average of +3.5) isn't perfectly equitable either. Standard effect's fine to discuss, but how often do we use it? Not very - because it's a rip off. Make it "average roll - you get 3.5 per d6 rounded down" and people might use standard effect, but that would highlight the cost inequity even more.

 

The only reason, IMO, that +1 costs 5 and +1/2d6 costs 10 is the historic focus on pricing every increment in 5 point steps. That, to me, is more a dinosaur than 1/2d6 and 1d6-1.

 

1/3 d6 - 1 will average 1/2 point, or 1/7 of a d6. So price it at 1/5 of a d6.

+1 averages 2/7 of a d6 - so price it at 2/5 of a d6.

1/2d6 will average 2, so 4/7 (57%) of a d6 so price it at 60% of a d6.

1d6-1 will average either 2.5 or 2 2/3 (so about 71% or 76%), so price it at 80% of a d6.

 

Why fifths? Because the base price for 1d6 normal damage is 5 points, so that's the best increment I've got. Fractional dice are a bit lower value, so you get a volume discount for purchasing in full die increments. With 15 points per d6, we could price KA's a bit more precisely, but tripling the "5 point base" (and doubling it for 10 points per 1d6 powers) is simpler, and the difference is too small to be worth the added disconnect.

 

It only seems to be used for killing damage anyway (looking at the table at 6.2.101). Can anyone think of an actual need for the d6-1 mechanic in the system' date=' and I mean by that an actual game mechanic need rather than 'I like getting higher damage totals' one?[/quote']

 

There's no reason it CAN'T be used for other attacks. I've used it for normal attacks, especially where advantages make the rounding screwy. 60/1.75 = 34, so if a 60 AP attack has +3/4 advantages, why not 34 x 1.75 = 60 for 7d6-1 instead of 33 x 1.75 = 58 for 6 1/2d6?

 

Is it NEEDED? The increments are very tiny, so it's hardly essential. But I could say the same about half dice. They aren't needed.

 

But they do add some granularity. And the killing attack weapon chart can use some granularity when it tops out at 2d6. Having 1d6+1 and 1 1/2d6 between 1d6 and 2d6 allows for some added variation. 1d6-1 provides for some additional variation. It's more effective than 1/2d6, so adjust the pricing so it costs more. So the costing doesn't move in 5 point increments. So what?

 

So we have to modify some "standard effect" values? To me, that's a plus - let 3d6 Standard Effect be 10 instead of 9 - that will make adjustment powers less of a pain to set at standard effect. At worst, I call it another "so what?"

 

While we are at it' date=' another related bugbear of mine: 1/2d6 should have a standard effect of 2 rather than 1. At present there is no way to create a standard effect of 5 points in Hero, unless you buy 2d6 and limit the standard damage to 5 rather than 6, which is not a good way to start your day.[/quote']

 

I'm good with a standard effect of 2. But I'd also like to see "standard effect" converted to "average effect", as indicated above. So, I'd ditch "it always has to divide by 5" and go:

 

1/2/3 points 1/3 d6 - 1 (average 1/2 point; standard effect 1/2 point).

2/4/6 points +1 (average 1 point; standard effect 1 point)

3/6/9 points +1/2d6 (2 points; standard effect 2 points)

4/8/12 points +1d6-1 (allow 0 to be the result so we don't have to segregate that d6 - average 2.5; standard 2.5 even if we don't allow -1 to eliminate that die)

5/10/15 points +1d6 (3.5 standard effect)

 

Round any leftover 1/2 point down on all Standard Effects.

 

Now you can build ANY number for Standard Effect.

 

And a 12d6 Standard Effect is 42, instead of 36, and it might actually be considered useful, rather than dropping an average hit against a 25 defense target from 17 to 11 - who's going to sacrifice over a third of their damage capacity? Using a lot of Damage Negation in your games? Rule that only the last 4d6, say, get rolled and make subtracting Negation easy because it's standard effect.

[Jagged]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

About Damage Guidance: 1-1 = 0. There is no rule saying otherwise' date=' so normal math applies.[/quote']

 

HERO System 6th Edition Rules Questions - 1d6-1 vs 1/2d6

 

There is now. It seems d6-1 has a minimum value of 1.

[dsatow]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Sorry, generally read the forums sporadically due to work, but since Steve's answered the thread, I guess that's all that needs to be said.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Half Dice Options

 

Just to throw in my 2 cents...

 

In heroic level campaigns we have used the 1d6-1 over ½d6 as the bonus for having 2 pts of STR over the minimum for muscle powered weapons (i.e. if the weapon does 1½d6 with a STR min of 12 and someone with a 14 STR uses it, he can do 2d6-1 instead). This was more to get people to vary their STR levels than anything else though.

 

Hugh makes some good points about standard effects and granularity which could be useful in some situations (I particularly like the example of a 34 pt Active attack being 7d6-1). But for myself, I have often allowed something like a 3d6 Aid to SPD have a "standard" effect of +1 SPD even though it is technically a point short. The standard effect rule in my mind is as much for convenience as anything, so I am not going to make my life more complicated by quibbling about one missing point.