Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

[Arlyansor]

Hi All,

 

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere else, but my search-fu is lacking today...

 

A friend is looking at running a 'semi-realistic' supers game using 5th ed rules (ie a person with super strength hitting a normal results in bloody splatter, etc) and I was wanting to see how I could build a character whose physical strength is actually a function of telekinesis.

 

Most of the build is not too hard, but what I got stuck on is the TK limit - "Affects whole object". What I'd like is a character whose real, physical strength is normal (ie 10 or 15) but who can boost their strength to superhuman levels via psychokinesis.

 

Now, whether he has straight Strength or a MP with Strength and HtH Attack is to be decided later, but what I want is for his extra, psychokinetic strength to affect the entirety of an object so he can, assuming his strength is high enough, lift an entire building...

 

Examples of this I can think of are:

When he kicks a car, instead of his foot punching through the side wall, the entire car shoots off like a ping pong ball...

 

When he punches a normal person, instead of his hand going straight through them, they (depending upon damage) either suffer knockback or literally explode...

 

When lifting large, fragile things (like a building), instead of ripping off a small chunk, he can lift the entire thing...

 

Any help gratefully accepted...

 

Arlyansor

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

This is essentially the same question I asked in this very old thread:

Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

 

It didn't get a lot of useful input but I would still go with a +1/4 Advantage on STR to cover such an ability.

[clsage]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Hi All,

 

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere else, but my search-fu is lacking today...

 

A friend is looking at running a 'semi-realistic' supers game using 5th ed rules (ie a person with super strength hitting a normal results in bloody splatter, etc) and I was wanting to see how I could build a character whose physical strength is actually a function of telekinesis.

If you aren't familiar with them yet, you might want to look at these builds for Superboy (AKA Conner Kent, AKA Kon-El, AKA Superman's clone) and the methods used for building "Tactile Telekinesis":

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superboy-mi.txt

 

and

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superboy-jd.txt

 

As always my standard disclaimer: these are not my builds. All credit goes to the originators.

 

-Carl-

[RexMundi]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

If it's TK, then use TK (or PK depending on how you want to build it...).....I really wouldn't do it with an advantage, points would get crunchy. The Lifting Skill is handy as well.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Normal Superhero/Comicbook physics asume that you can lift a building without it breaking appart.

 

Affects whole objects has nothing to do with it, it just disables some options (I asume it did not changed much form 5E to 6E) for TK.

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Just remembered:

6E rules asume that TK STR affectign an area (either the inherent Armspan or with AOE), has to distribute it's STR evenly across the teh Area. Would at least help with the car.

 

Another Idea for the car/person punch:

6E Martial Throw does not requires you to grab the target (like normal throw) - when this is true for 5E too, you could use it for fly-punching people and cars (TK throw is always the better choice to move something).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Normal Superhero/Comicbook physics asume that you can lift a building without it breaking appart.

 

Affects whole objects has nothing to do with it, it just disables some options (I asume it did not changed much form 5E to 6E) for TK.

 

So Marvel Universe doesn't use 'normal Superhero/Comicbook physics?

 

from: http://marvel.wikia.com/Baxter_Building

 

Construction Windows are 2-foot thick composites of various glasses and plastics which are mirrored on the outside. Solid, armored, exterior walls are also mirror-clad and are indistinguishable from transparent sections. The top five sections of the Baxter Building are completely airtight, all doors are airlocks. Complete environmental support, including atmosphere is provided by the area between elevators 2, 3, and 4 on all floors. The building's steel-alloy framework may be rigid enough to be stood on one corner and not deform (though Reed himself stated that this was due to the use of tactile telekinesis by Gladiator).

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

So Marvel Universe doesn't use 'normal Superhero/Comicbook physics?

 

from: http://marvel.wikia.com/Baxter_Building

They just tried to give the effect a canon-sense. But does it really matters why, as long as buildings don't crumble when it would be stupid for them to do it?

 

Anyway, had some time to think this through and here are some more ideas for this specific concept:

 

The increase STR can be done two ways:

+X STR, Kinetik SFX.

Kinetik Martial Arts, with a lot of extra DC (ausming they already add to things like the STR for Exert based maneuvers in 5E).

But that will not inlcude throwing objects to people, as I just re-read (Martial Throw works only on characters).

 

If this is mostly about "hitting people with objects, regardless of the realistic physics in my world":

"OIF(appropirate Object of Opportinuty)" for any HTH range attack.

"OIF(appropirate Object of Opportinuty)" and "range based on STR" for any ranged attack.

There are variants for Entangle too, using things like lampposts (usually with the additional limitation of BODY/PD being based on the used object).

 

If he also want's to be able to use his powers to support objects (i.e. reinforce Obstacle), he could try to make the building durable enough:

Boost (5E: Succor), to BODY and PD/DEF. "Only for structures" and possibly "Only to support it's own weight when lifted", if it shouldn't also increase the damage potential when used as weapon.

Then he can just use his STR. The problem is he would need some way to trigger the Boost or Multiattack when he wants to Grab, Reinforce, and then Lift/Throw the object without loosing a phase for the reinforcing.

[phoenix240]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I gathered that in the OP's campaign "comic book physics" aren't going to apply (or not as much) so they're looking for an ability to simulate the effect for their character. I'd go with Telekinsis: No Range possibly wth IPE (SFX) since it just looks like he's really strong.

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I gathered that in the OP's campaign "comic book physics" aren't going to apply (or not as much) so they're looking for an ability to simulate the effect for their character. I'd go with Telekinsis: No Range possibly wth IPE (SFX) since it just looks like he's really strong.

I noticed that right after my post. And I also noticed that the target powerset reads like a "can ignore exactly that rule" build.

 

I doubt Telekinesis will change anything in and of itself. TK STR has neither a higher nor lesser chance to injure the target than normal STR - it's just "STR with Range". The only way this could work if his STR (Telekinesis or Normal) worked on area of effect - since then the lifting power could work evenly across the floor of the building (at least it does in 6E, no idea about 5E).

[phoenix240]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I noticed that right after my post. And I also noticed that the target powerset reads like a "can ignore exactly that rule" build.

 

I doubt Telekinesis will change anything in and of itself. TK STR has neither a higher nor lesser chance to injure the target than normal STR - it's just "STR with Range". The only way this could work if his STR (Telekinesis or Normal) worked on area of effect - since then the lifting power could work evenly across the floor of the building (at least it does in 6E, no idea about 5E).

 

I didn't get that he wanted to have less of a chance of injury but wanted his character to be able to do things like life a large objects without them ripping apart in his hands (like lifting a car by the bumper). The injury aspect would probably be a matter of the campaigns Defense limits, etc.

[brionl]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Telekinesis with no range?

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I didn't get that he wanted to have less of a chance of injury but wanted his character to be able to do things like life a large objects without them ripping apart in his hands (like lifting a car by the bumper). The injury aspect would probably be a matter of the campaigns Defense limits' date=' etc.[/quote']

Who says lifting something with TK is less damaging for a building than lifting it normally?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Who says lifting something with TK is less damaging for a building than lifting it normally?

 

If you can lift the building by applying STR at all points - each wall, floor, etc. - rather than grabbing a corner at the bottom and lifting - it should be more practical to lift the entire object.

 

I suspect the Poster would be open to other means of "lifting the whole object" rather than "breaking off a chunk of the object".

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

If you can lift the building by applying STR at all points - each wall' date=' floor, etc. - rather than grabbing a corner at the bottom and lifting - it should be more practical to lift the entire object.[/quote']

I know that the trick is to not apply all your STR at on point. But who said TK is able to do that?

 

You seem to asume it does. I asume it doesn't without Area of Effect (wich could also be applied to normal STR; and I know it does work that way in 6E and could even find the rule).

Unless there is a rule somwhere in the 5E books (so far none was quoted and I can't look it up, as I don't have 5E rulebooks) that says Yes or No, then this is to 100% subject to GM decission wich is nothing a mayor shtick power should be subjected to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I think that's a valid issue. You could certainly use TK multiple times (taking some time, or a Multiple Attack) to apply it to a number of points on the object, I suppose, but the desired structure seems to be "grab the car by its bumper and throw", not "take a couple of minutes, then move the object". As well, the END cost of those multiple points of contact will be an issue.

 

My starting point would be a discussion with the GM. First, given he does not want "comic book physics" to apply, is he OK with buying an ability which will specifically return to comic book physics? Second, assuming he will, how does he want it constructed? I'd say AoE TK is the most logical approach, maybe AoE Surface to cover the area of the desired object. That could be pretty costly if you want to lift a multi-story building.

[phoenix240]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Who says lifting something with TK is less damaging for a building than lifting it normally?

 

I recall a passage about TK having an "arm span" like effect and being able to do things like lift sand, gravel, like a scoop by default. Can't recall where it was though. That said, I would say getting the TK "Effects entire object" would get the result he wanted as far as lifting and throwing went, the character could have regular TK for damaging things (if he could) or enhanced Strength.

 

Honestly, I agree with Advantage mentioned earlier. Its simple and does what he wanted: gives his Strength an advantage not present automatically in the game. But its more of a House Rule and some people really don't like those.

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Indeed, the required area is the main problem when lifting a building. In 6E even a 32m radius is a +1 Advantage.

 

Applying it to the surface is actually a bad idea, as the surface tends to be a lot bigger than just one side. For a car and in 6E this will work for certain:

Move a whole car:

Naked Advantage for up to 40 Points of STR; Area of Effect (2m Radius; +1/4); 50 AP; Only to move Objects as whole (guessed -1); 5 Real Cost

 

The TK-Armspan Rule is in the 6E APG 121. About affect whole object adn why it would not work for me:

You limit yourself that you can only affect something as whole. Like Grabbing it normally. You can't grab a building whole (not with normal human armspan; growth does not coutns here), so your would only end up not being able to move teh buildign at all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Couple of thoughts so far.

 

Comic Book Physics keeps getting brought up even though I have already cited a comic book source in both this thread and the thread I started 6 years ago specifically addressing this subject (Gladiator's first appearance in the Fantastic Four).

 

The idea is Tactile Telekinesis.

It makes no sense to me that the assembled Herodom can't agree on an Advantage to apply to STR instead of repeatedly suggesting "Telekinesis with AOE" when Telekinesis itself is technically just STR with the Ranged Advantage.

My understanding of examples of Tactile Telekinesis in the comics is that it functions like HERO TK with the Affects Whole Object and No Range Limitations. Now the debatable point is whether a Limitation (Affects Whole Object) should provide an Advantage (keeping a large object intact while lifted from an otherwise tiny point).

[phoenix240]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

The TK-Armspan Rule is in the 6E APG 121. .

 

Well, I know I didn't see it there since I haven't read that book.

[phoenix240]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Couple of thoughts so far.

 

Comic Book Physics keeps getting brought up even though I have already cited a comic book source in both this thread and the thread I started 6 years ago specifically addressing this subject (Gladiator's first appearance in the Fantastic Four).

 

The idea is Tactile Telekinesis.

It makes no sense to me that the assembled Herodom can't agree on an Advantage to apply to STR instead of repeatedly suggesting "Telekinesis with AOE" when Telekinesis itself is technically just STR with the Ranged Advantage.

My understanding of examples of Tactile Telekinesis in the comics is that it functions like HERO TK with the Affects Whole Object and No Range Limitations. Now the debatable point is whether a Limitation (Affects Whole Object) should provide an Advantage (keeping a large object intact while lifted from an otherwise tiny point).

 

FWIW in one "supers in the real world" campaign we used a +1/4 Advantage for powers in general "Comic book physics apply" as a House rule. It worked pretty well.

[Lucius]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Naked Advantage, Area Effect, on STR

 

Or

 

Flight, Usable as Attack

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, Usable as Tagline

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

Comic Book Physics keeps getting brought up even though I have already cited a comic book source in both this thread and the thread I started 6 years ago specifically addressing this subject (Gladiator's first appearance in the Fantastic Four).

AGP or Champions 6E specifially adressed those comic book physics (can't remember wich one exactly, but one of the two).

 

The idea is Tactile Telekinesis.

It makes no sense to me that the assembled Herodom can't agree on an Advantage to apply to STR instead of repeatedly suggesting "Telekinesis with AOE" when Telekinesis itself is technically just STR with the Ranged Advantage

My setiments exactly. Telekinesis without range is just Kinesis. Simply because "Tele" means on Distance(like in Tele-Vision - literally "seeing on range").

 

My understanding of examples of Tactile Telekinesis in the comics is that it functions like HERO TK with the Affects Whole Object and No Range Limitations. Now the debatable point is whether a Limitation (Affects Whole Object) should provide an Advantage (keeping a large object intact while lifted from an otherwise tiny point).

Asuming the rule of Armspan applies, Affects whole object won't help you one bit. If it does not apply, then it's getting more difficulty.

 

Well' date=' I know I didn't see it there since I haven't read that book.[/quote']

I gave you one source. You apparently had a different one. But the rule exists certainly for 6E and I doubt this one changed (this would have a mayor effect on TK-balance).

[fbdaury]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I've always kinda liked the idea of a naked Indirect advantage (+1/2) on strength, allowing the character to apply their strength evenly across the whole object, thus keeping it in one piece, or to focus all of their strength into one point on an object without affecting the whole.

[Christopher]

Re: Physical Strength that affects the whole object...

 

I've always kinda liked the idea of a naked Indirect advantage (+1/2) on strength' date=' allowing the character to apply their strength evenly across the whole object, thus keeping it in one piece, or to focus all of their strength into one point on an object without affecting the whole.[/quote']

I can't say anything about the 5E indirect, but there is nothing in the 6E Indirect that would allow it to work that way.

Indirect build as you did in 6E would allow you to circumvent blocks and other defenses with your normal Punch (must be bought extra for HTA, HKA and Martial Arts attacks). Actually HSMA has rules for a near unblockable punch build that way (the only defense is a "Block" that is built as desolidification).

It does not increases the area of your effect, just the "direction" your power works/where you can place the point of effect.

 

So that still only leaves a limited Area of Effect Advantage (either to STR or TK, works either way. it's just if it should be ranged STR or not Ranged one), but with a near useless pricing for liftign buildings, HTH-/ranged attacks built with (Object of Opportinity) Limitation or a flat +1/4 or +1/2 to overwrite the rules (wich is subject to GM approval).

 

I guess this is everything the rules have to say about that and the final dicission is up to the GM, or is there somethign we missed