Is Kinetik a casual killer?

[Christopher]

While taking a look a the writeup of the Champions in Champiosn 6E, I noticed that Kinetik has no "Code Versus Killing".

 

Is this a error, or is he considered to be "willing to kill" because of unmentioned events in his history?

[Steve Long]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

You are correct that Kinetik has no Code Versus Killing. Make of that what you will, considering what he's like and who he works with.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

To me, lacking a Code vs Killing does not equate to a casual killer (a complication the other way). It means he has a typical bias against killing, one which can be overcome. Where the heroes with a CvK might hold back against an unknown opponent, Kinetik might strike at full power, not trying to kill the opponent but also not prepared to risk his own, or other, lives to be positive the opponent won't be killed/seriously injured. He might also kill the Joker after his third murder spree following an escape from Arkham, on the basis that it is clear his death is the only thing that will stop him, while the CvK hero will simply not take a life - that's never justified.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

I think Hugh has it about right.

 

Simplified Example:

CvK Character: "We don't kill."

Casual Killer Character: "You're a weak fool!"

 

Cvk Character: "We don't kill."

No Psych Lim Either Way Character: "Whatevs."

[RexMundi]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

To me' date=' lacking a Code vs Killing does not equate to a casual killer (a complication the other way). It means he has a typical bias against killing, one which can be overcome. Where the heroes with a CvK might hold back against an unknown opponent, Kinetik might strike at full power, not trying to kill the opponent but also not prepared to risk his own, or other, lives to be positive the opponent won't be killed/seriously injured. He might also kill the Joker after his third murder spree following an escape from Arkham, on the basis that it is clear his death is the only thing that will stop him, while the CvK hero will simply not take a life - that's never justified.[/quote']

 

This.

 

~Rex

[Lucius]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

While taking a look a the writeup of the Champions in Champiosn 6E, I noticed that Kinetik has no "Code Versus Killing".

 

Is this a error, or is he considered to be "willing to kill" because of unmentioned events in his history?

 

This is a false dichotomy.

 

It is entirely possible to have neither a casual attitude towards killing, nor a code opposing it. In fact, the vast majority of living persons fall into neither category.

 

This is like saying that someone who has not taken a vow of chastity is automatically promiscuous.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or like saying that someone who does not have a palindromedary in every tagline is morally opposed to palindromedaries

[Christopher]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

To avoid further confusion:

The tile was not supposed to be taken to literally.

 

Now back to Kinetiks missing CvK:

That Steves says that he has in fact no CvK makes we wonder why? I mean, it is very unusual for a hero to not have one considering the power they have.

Has it to do with the fact that he and his family where directly affected by the Battle of Detroit and he would rather kill the next Dr. D than letting such a thing happen again?

Is it that he simple has so little damage power, that he literally can't kill an oponent, unless he does it deliberatily/in cold blood after being knocked out?

Is it the strenght of his convition to protect his siblings? (he is the only Champion with DNCP's)

Is there something else in his past that makes him less opposed to killing than the rest of his team (Was he in the Army? Being in gang in his youth?)

[Tom]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

To avoid further confusion:

The tile was not supposed to be taken to literally.

 

Now back to Kinetiks missing CvK:

That Steves says that he has in fact no CvK makes we wonder why? I mean, it is very unusual for a hero to not have one considering the power they have.

Has it to do with the fact that he and his family where directly affected by the Battle of Detroit and he would rather kill the next Dr. D than letting such a thing happen again?

Is it that he simple has so little damage power, that he literally can't kill an oponent, unless he does it deliberatily/in cold blood after being knocked out?

Is it the strenght of his convition to protect his siblings? (he is the only Champion with DNCP's)

Is there something else in his past that makes him less opposed to killing than the rest of his team (Was he in the Army? Being in gang in his youth?)

 

Hmmm, and he had a CvK in 5e fwiw...

 

Though frankly I consider having a CvK to be the exception rather than the norm, even for heroes, and Kinetic received his powers as an adult so presumably he formulated his ideas on the subject before he had powers. Given the deaths of his parents and so many others in the Battle of Detroit, I would imagine he has a less idealistic viewpoint on subject than some.

 

In any event, given the lack of a 'stated' reason, it's GM's discretion.

[RexMundi]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

It still doesn't mean that just because he doesn't have Code vs Killing that he's all of a sudden channeling Frank Castle when the mood shifts.... CVK isn't the only thing that poofed off his translated sheet and if he is supposed to be the people safe replacement for the CU Nighthawk (whom left the team because he was to mean and or the rest of the team was to nice, or they were making fun of him for his Duck Cowl and Metal Mansiere (props to Seinfeld for that one), it doesn't make much sense sheet wise to have him be the super speed murderer of the team just because he lacks a limitation that should preclude that. He's still a Super Hero (albeit one without the old limitations of being image conscious and a good role model that sort of thing)...

 

So he should still act like a Super Hero.

 

~Rex

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Pardon my repetitiveness, but I think Tom's got it there, on all three paragraphs.

 

I definitely agree that a 20pt CvK (aka 'Nobody's killing ANYBODY') should be a rare duck. Few people have that level of commitment to anything, and a Total Psych Lim is one of those that defines a person utterly, the kind of person you call 'that guy who ...' when you can't remember his name. I've considered not allowing Total commitment Psych Lims simply because that level of attachment, being utterly unable to do otherwise or consider other options regardless of how dire the situation is strikes me as being, well, kind of crazy. It's the kind of fanaticism that can screw up a game because your PC cannot and will not, however begrudgingly, go along with a contrary plan, even if it's the only solution.

[RexMundi]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Well there are ways to get around the total commitment but not without a lot of repercussion Role Play wise. I try and make it very clear what a total commitment psych limitation IS.....

 

Kinda Hard with some players though. They don't quite get it. Then when you put it in terms they can understand they get mad at you....

 

~Rex

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

CvK and Casual Killer are both Psych Complications. Lacking both means you fall somewhere in the middle, I suspect.

[RexMundi]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

CvK and Casual Killer are both Psych Complications. Lacking both means you fall somewhere in the middle' date=' I suspect.[/quote']

 

Yeah but you run into that grey area that to some folks seem to equate to Iron Age responses to Silver Age issues. There's a lot of characters per say Now in comics that do Kill, Yet, they're still not The Punisher or The Vigilante......

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Few people have that level of commitment to anything' date=' and a Total Psych Lim is one of those that defines a person utterly, the kind of person you call 'that guy who ...'[/quote']

It's a simple "I'd rather die" or "I'd rather do nothing when forced to decide" thing. The type of things not even a EGO+20 Mind controll would get you to do. And absolutely identical to: "Kill the women you love" or "Kill your daughter/son".

 

You might have difficulty to imagine people being as opposed to killing a stranger as to kill their own loved ones, but for heroes this is something usual.

[RexMundi]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

It's a simple "I'd rather die" or "I'd rather do nothing when forced to decide" thing. The type of things not even a EGO+20 Mind controll would get you to do. And absolutely identical to: "Kill the women you love" or "Kill your daughter/son".

 

You might have difficulty to imagine people being as opposed to killing a stranger as to kill their own loved ones, but for heroes this is something usual.

 

Not really that uncommon in the real world. Ask any Military Instructor on the subject of making someone Dead, and the psych fallout from not being able to cope with such when it happens.

 

~Rex

[Tom]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Most people don't really think about dealing that level of violence -- which also tends to explain why most people don't really have a CvK. They've never considered it as a possibility/option.

 

And as Rex said, the military actually has to train people to overcome a base-level aversion to killing. Though arguably our culture's immersion in violent media and video games (etc) is considered an aid towards that goal by at least some people (did I qualify that enough?).

 

It has also been argued that at least part of the logic behind demonizing your opponent in the media is to strip away their humanity to make killing them more easily justifiable.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Yeah but you run into that grey area that to some folks seem to equate to Iron Age responses to Silver Age issues. There's a lot of characters per say Now in comics that do Kill, Yet, they're still not The Punisher or The Vigilante......

 

~Rex

 

Exactly. And gamers being gamers...well there's plenty of "Kill them" mentality to go around.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Most people don't really think about dealing that level of violence -- which also tends to explain why most people don't really have a CvK. They've never considered it as a possibility/option.

 

And as Rex said, the military actually has to train people to overcome a base-level aversion to killing. Though arguably our culture's immersion in violent media and video games (etc) is considered an aid towards that goal by at least some people (did I qualify that enough?).

 

It has also been argued that at least part of the logic behind demonizing your opponent in the media is to strip away their humanity to make killing them more easily justifiable.

 

Well qualified.

And yeah, excellent points.

 

To me, Casual Killer means you will kill someone because they've inconvenienced you...and because you can. Cop pulls you over? Dead Cop (As long as you think you can get away with it).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Well qualified.

And yeah, excellent points.

 

To me, Casual Killer means you will kill someone because they've inconvenienced you...and because you can. Cop pulls you over? Dead Cop (As long as you think you can get away with it).

 

That's more 'Likes to Kill' or 'Psychopath' to me ... but I'm picking nits again. I tend to think of it like:

0- "If he's not using lethal force, I won't ... but if he is using lethal force, I won't feel bad about using it if I NEED to, but I won't use it if it's not necessary.'

Casual Killer- "He's an enemy, he's fighting me. I have no compunction against the use of lethal force."

Likes to Kill - "I have no compunction against the use of lethal force in any circumstance. No, I would not like fries with that. *stab*"

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

To me' date=' Casual Killer means you will kill someone because they've inconvenienced you...and because you can. Cop pulls you over? Dead Cop (As long as you think you can get away with it).[/quote']

 

Agreed. The cop (or armed bystander) who has to shoot someone to defend himself or others from the immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm is not a casual killer.

 

The simple lack of a CVK does not mean a character will automatically resort to murder whenever its convenient. A casual killer is either (layman's terms here) sociopathic or psychopathic. The definition of these non-technical terms is simple. The sociopathic casual killer will do things the rest of us deem unacceptable, but s/he understands that society does not approve of casual killing and will take steps to ensure that he is not discovered or otherwise linked to his misdeeds. A psychopathic casual killer does not understand (for whatever reason) that murder is socially unacceptable, and will argue that it was necessary even in instances where the rest of us would be going "WTF?!? What the hell did you do THAT for? The guy was just jaywalking, fer crissakes!"

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

That's more 'Likes to Kill' or 'Psychopath' to me ... but I'm picking nits again. I tend to think of it like:

0- "If he's not using lethal force, I won't ... but if he is using lethal force, I won't feel bad about using it if I NEED to, but I won't use it if it's not necessary.'

Casual Killer- "He's an enemy, he's fighting me. I have no compunction against the use of lethal force."

Likes to Kill - "I have no compunction against the use of lethal force in any circumstance. No, I would not like fries with that. *stab*"

 

True, I was considering a 20 pt Casual Killer - someone who doesn't really know a better way to deal with the outside world.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Also. Since this is 6e and there is only 75 pts in complications, the need for Psych Comps is lessened. As I convert a lot of my 5e Characters I am dropping some. I'll admit to occasionally reaching for disad points in the past. But now a case could be made for the GM to say, "This is a Silver Age Game, consider the world to have a "Strong" aversion to killing."

[Epiphanis]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

I love CvK arguments. No, CvK is not uncommon in the real world.

 

A historian named S. L. A. Marshall published a famous study that posited that about 75% of American combat troops in WWII, who had been specifically trained and ordered to kill other humans, either expressly refused to do so or had only pretended to shoot at the enemy while in fact never having even tried to hit somebody, even when their own chances of survival would have been improved by such. His findings were supported and expanded on by another historian, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman; although Marshall and Grossman's methodologies were sometimes criticized, other researchers have found a lot of corroborating evidence supporting their general points, and finding that similar figures apply not only to WWII soldiers but, as nearly as available data can ascertain, to most soldiers of most sides in most conflicts they have enough data regarding to analyze. The U.S. Army had enough belief in Grossman's conclusions that it changed its training methods in an effort to overcome what it recognized as a very real and powerful resistance to kill.

[RexMundi]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

Yep. CvK is far more common then what most folks think. Most folks won't even throw a punch unless it's down to wire and even then, it's debatable. Upgrade that to ending the life of someone directly, gets far more complicated. You get the CvK thing more often in Gamer discussions because killing the badguy is part and purpose of a lot of the gaming so on that level, Gamers are for it, and deep down, a lot of gamers want to be that dangerous badass that can kill you as soon as look at you, or at least, scratch the surface of it vicariously. So they talk smack and bluster and avoid putting stuff like CvK on their sheet so no one thinks they are some wuss that got their lunch money taken from them every other day. *shrug*

 

~Rex

[Balabanto]

Re: Is Kinetik a casual killer?

 

The problem with this argument is really this:

 

Code vs. Killing has many forms:

 

And by this, I don't mean that Code vs. Killing can be hedged around, based on how you roleplay the character. The point value of CVK changes based on what TYPE of Code vs. Killing you have, and the TYPE of campaign it is.

 

If your campaign is largely based on Earth, and aliens are rare, Code vs. Killing, Humans is worth 15 points. The character will kill Alien Invaders, Giant Monsters, etc, but will not take a human life. Is a clone a human? In some games yes, in others, no. In the comics, Iron Man has this disadvantage. He won't kill human beings, but he will kill the Kree Supreme Intelligence.

 

The same disadvantage in a galactic spanning future game, where aliens are everywhere, is worth far less points.

 

By the same token, not having a Code vs. Killing doesn't mean that you're a murdering psychopath. But....

 

The problem is, that in these situations, the CVK character rarely gets to "win" the argument. As far as I've been able to see over the years, when PLAYER CHARACTERS are involved, usually, the player whose character is offended by the actions of the bad guy either goes off and kills the NPC in secret, or the character winds up being exonerated for his actions because the players want the game to continue and the GM is too nice to throw the hero who killed the NPC under the bus. I've been the CVK character in that situation and it really stinks, because you know, out of game, PC's behave differently compared to NPC's. There have been cases where heroes have tried to arrest other heroes over it, but the player argued that "Well in the real world, I'd be acquitted." "In the real world, people don't run a thousand miles an hour, shoot fire out of their fingertips, and create force bubbles."

 

That's my real issue with four color games where a couple characters have no CVK at all. It's that the CVK character never winds up being the victor in these situations.