Detect Evil in your superhero game...

[GoldenAge]

I have a new character in Epic City (see sig) whose main power is to Detect Evil.

 

Now, the power seems to fit the concept. He's a priest, so I guess he has the ability to look deeply into one's soul to determine a person's true nature (if it's EVIL).

 

Okay, Epic City is a campaign fraught with shades of gray. On any occasion a person (and often heroes) can manifest evil (be it through thoughts, intentions or actions). To understand a person's true nature in such a black and white context seems ludicrous to me.

 

Now, add to that the potential campaign ruining strength of such a simple detect. In almost every circumstance where a person is hiding an evil intent the OC would immediately root out the potential for deception. Take the scene from The Dark Knight where the hostages were really agents and the agents disguised hostages... No fun now because it's obvious to the character with a simple Detect Evil that the hostages are... well, evil. So many more clever ruses could so easily be uncovered.

 

Is this worse (better?) than Telepathy?

 

Am I thinking too hard about this, or is there real potential for this power to ruin a campaign (or, at the very least, make the GM too often contrive ways to make it fail)???

[Christopher]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I once considered the drawbacks of the Detect Evil in D&D (had a Paladin Power Gamer) and here is what I got:

Not every enemy is evil.

The fake hostages could very well just do their job (be mercenaries). Perhaps they even have a small, sick child at home and need the money or have some other, non-evil motivation. In Saw the persumed villian was actually just another victim of the real villian.

The same way animal intelligence beings taht want to eat you aren't evil. They are just following instincts. And that mugger is not interested in doing harm to you, he really only wants your money.

 

Sometimes people are evil, but not the villian.

That baker that beats his children and wife? Righteous evil, but most likely not the villian.

 

Lies aren't evil:

If they were, every unsaid thruth would trigger his sense and every single person would register as evil.

 

So it boils down to two things:

It either only detect people that a totally corrupted (the Joker, Two-Face, Dr. Destroyer, Talisman) or it is so wide that it will detect everybody, inlcuding your Image in the mirror and your housecat.

[Clonus]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I have a new character in Epic City (see sig) whose main power is to Detect Evil.

 

Now, the power seems to fit the concept. He's a priest, so I guess he has the ability to look deeply into one's soul to determine a person's true nature (if it's EVIL).

 

Okay, Epic City is a campaign fraught with shades of gray. On any occasion a person (and often heroes) can manifest evil (be it through thoughts, intentions or actions). To understand a person's true nature in such a black and white context seems ludicrous to me.

 

Now, add to that the potential campaign ruining strength of such a simple detect. In almost every circumstance where a person is hiding an evil intent the OC would immediately root out the potential for deception. Take the scene from The Dark Knight where the hostages were really agents and the agents disguised hostages... No fun now because it's obvious to the character with a simple Detect Evil that the hostages are... well, evil. So many more clever ruses could so easily be uncovered.

 

Well the obvious issue with any Detect ability is the question of false positives. Not every evil person is a criminal. Some of them despite their spiteful and malicious disposition are too careful for that. And not every criminal can fairly be described as evil. And there's a long line of Marvel characters would would ping as evil despite being fairly bog-standard heroes who just happen to be The Son of Satan, Ghost Rider, or a vampire detective. Without the Analyse ability you can't tell the difference between a dirty finger and a dirty fingerprint. Even when you correctly identify the bad guys, that doesn't mean you'll know what their scheme is. Yes, it does make one particular kind of scheme the one where really bad people pose as innocents, difficult to pull off in the same sense that danger sense makes it hard to arrange an ambush. But you know if you really felt like messing him up, you could just have robots posing as hostages. It's not the kind of trick you want to pull and have it work again and again. Really it might not be a bad idea to hand the character such a revelation.

 

You do need to be clear on just what is being detected. Is it current intent, negative traits on the character sheet, or something supernatural?

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I once considered the drawbacks of the Detect Evil in D&D (had a Paladin Power Gamer) and here is what I got:

Not every enemy is evil.

The fake hostages could very well just do their job (be mercenaries). Perhaps they even have a small, sick child at home and need the money or have some other, non-evil motivation. In Saw the persumed villian was actually just another victim of the real villian.

The same way animal intelligence beings taht want to eat you aren't evil. They are just following instincts. And that mugger is not interested in doing harm to you, he really only wants your money.

 

Sometimes people are evil, but not the villian.

That baker that beats his children and wife? Righteous evil, but most likely not the villian.

 

Lies aren't evil:

If they were, every unsaid thruth would trigger his sense and every single person would register as evil.

 

So it boils down to two things:

It either only detect people that a totally corrupted (the Joker, Two-Face, Dr. Destroyer, Talisman) or it is so wide that it will detect everybody, inlcuding your Image in the mirror and your housecat.

Well, I'm trying to avoid the nightmare of determining the motivation of every single being in my campaign, so your first option may be the way to go... But the power still ruins cool Joker disguises or Lex Luthor plots instantly (or, at the very least, warns the OC of the potential of mischief).

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Well the obvious issue with any Detect ability is the question of false positives. Not every evil person is a criminal. Some of them despite their spiteful and malicious disposition are too careful for that. And not every criminal can fairly be described as evil. And there's a long line of Marvel characters would would ping as evil despite being fairly bog-standard heroes who just happen to be The Son of Satan, Ghost Rider, or a vampire detective. Without the Analyse ability you can't tell the difference between a dirty finger and a dirty fingerprint. Even when you correctly identify the bad guys, that doesn't mean you'll know what their scheme is. Yes, it does make one particular kind of scheme the one where really bad people pose as innocents, difficult to pull off in the same sense that danger sense makes it hard to arrange an ambush. But you know if you really felt like messing him up, you could just have robots posing as hostages. It's not the kind of trick you want to pull and have it work again and again. Really it might not be a bad idea to hand the character such a revelation.

 

You do need to be clear on just what is being detected. Is it current intent, negative traits on the character sheet, or something supernatural?

 

Yah, there is even a member on his team (Darkshard) that would set off the detect. :-/

 

Y'see, my game is very complex and has legacy characters that are over 20 years old. I'm running primary, secondary, tertiary (and more) plots all at the same time. I'm worried that such a power would force me to snub the OC to make things work (thus pissing him off), reveal sleeper plots and agents that I planted years ago or even, simply put, lessen the need for investigation and intuition.

[RexMundi]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

It's not that bad really. No more powerful then Danger Sense. Which in a world without Alignments, is a better way to structure it. It can still be set up as a Detect though that does the same thing with a few tweaks that allows for the Joker/Luthor plots to work, without blowing the character concept at the same time.

 

~Rex

[Tasha]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I would really only let this detect evil on things like Demons, Devils, Necromancy things that are mystically(Magically) evil.

 

Some Villains would detect evil ie the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Black Paladin, Shadow Destroyer (but maybe not our Dr Destroyer) etc.

 

I wouldn't allow the player to turn it into a "Villain Detector". Doing that would really hose any adventure where subterfuge is required (ie badguy infiltrates Hero Bases support staff)

[Christopher]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Some Villains would detect evil ie the Crowns of Krim' date=' Takofanes[/quote']

Those two would be like staring into the sun. So when they are around, perhaps the Medium used for the detect is overcrowded, the same way sounds can be hard to hear in a factory hall. That way he may never notice that someone is evil (when meeting him in person for the first time) and the sense may not work along Clairsentience.

 

One thing to remember is, that there are things blocking every detect. And it does not needs to be a lead sheat. Just having a certain gem on your person cloud be enough to fool the detect.

 

And of course there are Sense affecting powers. Talisman could very well have a spell to conceal her presence (or the shape shift she uses include fooling that sense). Someone like Lex Luthor is certain to have something for every ocassion (a piece of Kryptonite, or that magical anti-detection amulet). So once people know of this power it can be overcome. Or perhaps they are just carefull in that matter (run into someone with such a power already).

 

What can help a lot in this matter, is to force him to use the simulated sense rule for this sense. Mental Group should be fitting. That way people like Menton could shield themself from being looked to deep into their minds/souls.

Maybe the characters understanding of the power is flawed? He thinks it is looking into the souls of others, but in reality it is only a intuitive form of mind scan (a detect based on the Mental Sense Group).

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

And of course there are Sense affecting powers. Talisman could very well have a spell to conceal her presence (or the shape shift she uses include fooling that sense). Someone like Lex Luthor is certain to have something for every ocassion (a piece of Kryptonite' date=' or that magical anti-detection amulet). So once people know of this power it can be overcome. Or perhaps they are just carefull in that matter (run into someone with such a power already).[/quote']

I agree with this... But in a setting like Epic City the players might call baloney on me when established characters, who never have before, start showing up with profs vs. detect evil. The player would have to build some sort of rep before folks started worrying about that specific power. By that time, they might all be in Stronghold!

 

What can help a lot in this matter, is to force him to use the simulated sense rule for this sense. Mental Group should be fitting. That way people like Menton could shield themself from being looked to deep into their minds/souls.

Maybe the characters understanding of the power is flawed? He thinks it is looking into the souls of others, but in reality it is only a intuitive form of mind scan (a detect based on the Mental Sense Group).

Good idea... I look into Simulated Sense! Thanks!

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

i think the power should be an equivelent to spider-sense ie a premonition of evilbut he can't tell exactly from who

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I would really only let this detect evil on things like Demons, Devils, Necromancy things that are mystically(Magically) evil.

 

Some Villains would detect evil ie the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Black Paladin, Shadow Destroyer (but maybe not our Dr Destroyer) etc.

 

I wouldn't allow the player to turn it into a "Villain Detector". Doing that would really hose any adventure where subterfuge is required (ie badguy infiltrates Hero Bases support staff)

And who, in their right mind, wants to be hosed!!!???!!!

 

In fact, a major part of our last adventure (Return of the New Reich) was the unexpected return of a lost hero (ARC) who was thought to have sacrificed himself to close a portal that linked our dimension with the realm of the evil hoards of the Emerald Dragon... Very, very heroic. Arc's return was celebrated by all and he was brought back into the fold. Unfortunately for our team. Arc blamed them for abandoning him in that other dimension, forever destined to battle wave after wave of Dragon Ninja.

 

On top of that, after Arc's return he had first been discovered by the New Reich! The evil Mengela, using Arc's anger towards his former friends, performed subtle psychic surgery on him and effectively brainwashed Arc into becoming BLITZKRIEG!!! Together Arc (now Blitzkrieg) and the insidious New Reich concocted a plan to have Blitzkrieg infiltrate the Epic Alliance under the guise of Arc. His mission: to destroy the Epic Alliance from within!!!

 

It was a very effective part of the Return of the New Reich thread that probably wouldn't have worked in the presence of a Detect Evil power.

[phoenix240]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I agree with this... But in a setting like Epic City the players might call baloney on me when established characters, who never have before, start showing up with profs vs. detect evil. The player would have to build some sort of rep before folks started worrying about that specific power. By that time, they might all be in Stronghold!

 

Well, the PC might not be te first character EVER to have this power. Its entirely possible that it hasn't come up before as a major issue (it didn't involve the PCs) before. Another question is how is the Player defining "Evil"? Acts against established secular or religious laws? A specific moral code? That would be pretty important in determining what the power could detect and how much it might give things away.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

i think the power should be an equivelent to spider-sense ie a premonition of evilbut he can't tell exactly from who

 

So a modified Danger Sense as RexMundi suggested in post #6?

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Well' date=' the PC might not be te first character EVER to have this power. Its entirely possible that it hasn't come up before as a major issue (it didn't involve the PCs) before.[/quote']

 

That assumes that many of my major villains/NPCs walk around prepared for any contingency. Hardly realistic (even in a comicbook context)

[Christopher]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

It was a very effective part of the Return of the New Reich thread that probably wouldn't have worked in the presence of a Detect Evil power.

The question is if he was really evil. It could very well have been "Righteous Fury". So unless the Sugery left Evil traces or he was totally transformed into a evil Nazi by then, he might not have been detected.

Maybe they couldn't even completly brainwash him before he broke up with his team (by betraying them), or they took care not to overdoo it right now (because with to much hatred, he might not have been able to hide his intentions long enough). Of course, if he escaped his former allie they might have completed the procedure.

[Orion]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I have had one character with something similar to Detect Evil. Rather than detecting all evil in an area, it only works on one person at a time, and he had to concentrate on that person. Most of the time, he had to be holding, or at least touching them. An inner voice then informed him whether this person deserves death or not. It doesn't tell what they did, only if they had crossed the threshhold. As far as he knew, the voice was always right, but this worries him. He hopes the voice is using good criteria in making the determination, and really hopes it isn't his own twisted mind making this stuff up. Rather than stating it out as a power, it was just noted on the character sheet, and the GM would let me know how evil the person was if I asked. I'm actually surprised he never used this against me, as it was an obvious plot opportunity.

[Clonus]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

I would really only let this detect evil on things like Demons, Devils, Necromancy things that are mystically(Magically) evil.

 

Some Villains would detect evil ie the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Black Paladin, Shadow Destroyer (but maybe not our Dr Destroyer) etc.

 

I wouldn't allow the player to turn it into a "Villain Detector". Doing that would really hose any adventure where subterfuge is required (ie badguy infiltrates Hero Bases support staff)

 

Unless they use a robot. Or plant a comic-book style post hypnotic suggestion in a real support staff member. Or recruit a misguided idealist. Or coerce a basically good guy in such a way that he knows that he and his family will die if he doesn't go along. I mean plans like that do require that you research your targets first and plan for how they can use their abilities to foil you. Although actually I think it could be interesting to make the scenario one about what happens _after_ the characters detect the infiltrator assuming. If Jarvis starts pinging as evil...how do they find out what the deal is? Has he been replaced by a shapeshifter or mirror universe twin and does the real Jarvis need rescuing? Is he under an evil spell that needs lifting? Has he just gone nuts?

 

If it's a new hire of course, one could just decline to hire the minion of evil who just applied, but that doesn't mean the characters shouldn't be interested in who sent him and why. The investigation of that can have points of interest, and if they fail to investigate, the _next_ infiltrator will be that robot/misguided idealist/coerced family man because villains can learn from experience.

[RexMundi]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

So a modified Danger Sense as RexMundi suggested in post #6?

 

It's easier to tweak and control, Fits Comic book themes I can think of (same could be said for a Telepathy Build too ala Nightman from the Ultraverse), can be useful in other ways which will blunt perceived "issues" with certain players, and fit well into the campaign.

 

Otherwise this is what's going to happen.....

 

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html

 

~Rex.....says Whisper runs out to get a sheet of lead foil.......

[megaplayboy]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Well, to Detect something, you have to define the scope and parameters of what that something is. "Evil", in human culture, is an abstract moral-ethical concept. It can refer to a thought, a state of mind, an intent, or an act or pattern of conduct. In a comic book or fantasy setting, it can also refer to a state of being or inherent nature of an object or place(an evil sword, an evil forest, etc.). So, that's 6 or 7 different things that "evil" could be, already. Then, however many of these things fall into the scope of what "evil" is(i.e., qualitative definition), you also have to consider the relative magnitude of the "evil"(i.e., a minor lie or petty theft, versus mass torture and murder(i.e., a sort of quantitative definition). You could further refine this by duration(a fleeting thought, versus an ongoing obsession), type("mundane"(ordinary human immoral/unethical thoughts and acts), "depraved/ruthless/psychotic"(sociopaths, serial killers, master villains), "supernatural"(undead, demons, etc.), "cosmic"(Cthulhu, Darkseid)), and "purity"(i.e., is the person/place/thing slightly, somewhat, half-, mostly, almost completely, or completely evil?).

So, Detect Evil Thoughts/Detect Evil State of Mind/Detect Evil Intent/Detect Evil Act/Detect Evil Being/Detect Evil Presence could all be separate, or you could combine them into one Large Group of Things. "Discriminatory" would give you just general information("That guy just had an evil thought", "There's something evil watching us from behind those trees"), while "Analyze" would permit you to get pretty detailed information with a good PER roll(and maybe Analyze:Evil might be a good complementary skill, permitting a closer analysis of evil people/beings and some advantage in interaction/combat with them).

If you want a more comprehensive ability, add "Good" to the set of things detected. You can then do things like say "Well, this demon's state of being is about 60% evil, but their state of mind and intent appear to be somewhat good and mostly neutral, with just a hint of evil. It's a judgment call as to whether to believe them/accept their offer of assistance."

[RexMundi]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Here's some other issues as well though. An eclectic group of folks sitting at a table that for the most part, have differing views of certain things, let's say Evil. Now, you toss Religion into that mix as well.

Depending on the Religion you have some fairly clear cut examples of Moral and Natural Evil and how that relates to the top of the food chain in the perspective Religion.

It gets Far Far more layered and complex then, and even worse, Muddled and Obfuscated, by folks whose natural inclinations color and warp what they are actually trying to present. It's one of the reasons I tend not to allow folks to make overtly Religious characters unless they have a solid grasp of the "facts" of that particular religion. Without that knowledge base said character becomes a parody, and that tends to play out badly in a lot of games.

 

Then you have to factor in the campaign itself, and it's "truths" and then you've got to adapt that to the rest of the table so to speak, and their own perceptions. Sure you can write down "This is What Evil Is!", but that will eventually end up as a giant argument as everyone starts splitting hairs to get the maximum benefit. Hence, It's better to do an end run around the OOC stuff, by structuring the Mechanic to fit the Effect that you want to get on the loosest terms possible. Head off that hair splitting argument before it can happen.

 

That's why I rolled with a Danger Sense set up. Danger is almost as relative to interpretation as Evil, so it's a functional Mechanic (even if it Is built basically on the detect set up), that's understood by the vast majority of HERO players, does what the player wants it to do for his Character, but allows the GM to have their fudge factor without having to crack out the "Well the Power as Written works THIS way but for this Case it doesn't" stick ....Going with the Danger Sense model leaves the definition of Evil, in the Hands of the GM, but still keeps the "ability to detect it" in the hands of the player so their concept remains unadulterated.

 

~Rex

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

The question is if he was really evil. It could very well have been "Righteous Fury". So unless the Sugery left Evil traces or he was totally transformed into a evil Nazi by then, he might not have been detected.

Maybe they couldn't even completly brainwash him before he broke up with his team (by betraying them), or they took care not to overdoo it right now (because with to much hatred, he might not have been able to hide his intentions long enough). Of course, if he escaped his former allie they might have completed the procedure.

If I have to work this hard to thwart (screw?) a character's power I might as well take it away.

[RexMundi]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

If I have to work this hard to thwart (screw?) a character's power I might as well take it away.

 

Yeah but that can be construed badly. It's not really that hard, and besides, it's no more unbalancing then Danger Sense. I'd say let it fly, just define and execute is all.

 

~Rex

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

~Rex.....says Whisper runs out to get a sheet of lead foil.......

[GoldenAge]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Well' date=' to Detect [i']something[/i], you have to define the scope and parameters of what that something is. "Evil", in human culture, is an abstract moral-ethical concept. It can refer to a thought, a state of mind, an intent, or an act or pattern of conduct. In a comic book or fantasy setting, it can also refer to a state of being or inherent nature of an object or place(an evil sword, an evil forest, etc.). So, that's 6 or 7 different things that "evil" could be, already. Then, however many of these things fall into the scope of what "evil" is(i.e., qualitative definition), you also have to consider the relative magnitude of the "evil"(i.e., a minor lie or petty theft, versus mass torture and murder(i.e., a sort of quantitative definition). You could further refine this by duration(a fleeting thought, versus an ongoing obsession), type("mundane"(ordinary human immoral/unethical thoughts and acts), "depraved/ruthless/psychotic"(sociopaths, serial killers, master villains), "supernatural"(undead, demons, etc.), "cosmic"(Cthulhu, Darkseid)), and "purity"(i.e., is the person/place/thing slightly, somewhat, half-, mostly, almost completely, or completely evil?).

So, Detect Evil Thoughts/Detect Evil State of Mind/Detect Evil Intent/Detect Evil Act/Detect Evil Being/Detect Evil Presence could all be separate, or you could combine them into one Large Group of Things. "Discriminatory" would give you just general information("That guy just had an evil thought", "There's something evil watching us from behind those trees"), while "Analyze" would permit you to get pretty detailed information with a good PER roll(and maybe Analyze:Evil might be a good complementary skill, permitting a closer analysis of evil people/beings and some advantage in interaction/combat with them).

If you want a more comprehensive ability, add "Good" to the set of things detected. You can then do things like say "Well, this demon's state of being is about 60% evil, but their state of mind and intent appear to be somewhat good and mostly neutral, with just a hint of evil. It's a judgment call as to whether to believe them/accept their offer of assistance."

 

megaplayboy, thank you. You truly have a gift for gab. In one paragraph you've nailed all my fears.

 

Rex, the religion thing takes it to a "ho nudda lebel" that I'd prefer to avoid at all costs (we already did the Angel Ascendant thread in 2009)

[RexMundi]

Re: Detect Evil in your superhero game...

 

Right but I just got done reading all the old Epic Shadowline St. George Stuff again ..... It can be worked up easily enough, and I know the visuals the player was describing last week, and trust me THAT stuff is GM gold. It's an easy fix to set it up so everyone's happy.

 

It's the other Powers that character has that needs more work, heh. Granted I got a jump on those as well. Anyway back to converting the Phalanx stomper...Phalanx Stomper can one Shot Blaastar.

 

~Rex