Religion in Science-Fiction?

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Data wasn't trying to become _physically_ human and nobody was qualified to say what his mental limitations were' date=' not even Data.[/quote']

Why? He could tell you exaclty what his limits are. He knows exaclty that he could never become more than the Sum of his Parts + the Input he got.

 

You seem to have a very specific definition of Religion, that data does not seems to fullfill to your current knowledge of the character. How about you give us that definition, instead of throwing in "I see it differently"?

He might fullfill your definition in ways you never considered.

 

I like Data.

 

He had so many chances to take shortcuts (emotion-chips & cyborg-grafts) to achieve his humanity & he rejected them all as being inadequate to the task.

[...]

He treated himself as both the ends (the achievement of his own humanity) and means (the achieving of his own humanity) to himself.

Not to forget "Hide and Q": Riker was tempted by Q with Q-Powers and Data directly spoke against becomming a human through Rikers Q-powers (Riker was giving out farewell Gifts and no one took them, wich convinced him to become human again).

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Why? He could tell you exaclty what his limits are. He knows exaclty that he could never become more than the Sum of his Parts + the Input he got.

 

You seem to have a very specific definition of Religion, that data does not seems to fullfill to your current knowledge of the character. How about you give us that definition, instead of throwing in "I see it differently"?

He might fullfill your definition in ways you never considered..

 

I gave an entire list of benchmarks for religion. A religion doesn't have to have all of them, but Data's hobby didn't have any of them.

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I gave an entire list of benchmarks for religion. A religion doesn't have to have all of them' date=' but Data's hobby didn't have any of them.[/quote']

But was based in a strongly held belief without evidence, faith.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

But was based in a strongly held belief without evidence' date=' faith.[/quote']

 

Nope. He didn't believe that goal was achievable. He just figured he couldn't lose anything by trying.

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

No' date=' I see no religion at all in that. No doctrines, no prayers, no theory of the afterlife, no deity, no taboos... It's about as much a religion as someone from a ghetto who has decided to become the richest man in the world as his life goal.[/quote']

IIRC, he did express an opinion on the afterlife: that he didn't have one. Finding that his head had been buried in San Francisco in the 19th century he said something like this was proof that he would someday cease to exist, and now this was one more thing he had in common with his human friends, we are all mortal.

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Nope. He didn't believe that goal was achievable. He just figured he couldn't lose anything by trying.

Then he saw his "mother" had achieved his goal.

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Nope. He didn't believe that goal was achievable.

 

All quests are inherently Quixotic, incommensurable & unachievable, but there is still value in attempting to overcome the impossible.

 

In Data's case, well... really he was virtually human to begin with: maybe more theatrical than most people, but no less specious (in a good way).

 

He just figured he couldn't lose anything by trying.

 

Like it was all a play.

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I gave an entire list of benchmarks for religion. A religion doesn't have to have all of them' date=' but Data's hobby didn't have any of them.[/quote']

Link please.

 

Nope. He didn't believe that goal was achievable. He just figured he couldn't lose anything by trying.

He did lost his life in Star Trek Nemesis because he behaved humanly and destroyed the weapon, despite being the only who was immune agaisnt it.

 

I can't think of a higher price than your life.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I can't think of a higher price than your life.

 

Perhaps one's soul?

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Perhaps one's soul?

If you asume you have one and it will be judged by your actions in your life.

 

But even then you are still dead. Your ability to influence the world has ended, if that means you "acced to haven", fall to hell or just stop existing because your brain stops working are only unrelevant details for this.

You are DEAD.

[KawangaKid]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

If you asume you have one and it will be judged by your actions in your life.

 

But even then you are still dead. Your ability to influence the world has ended, if that means you "acced to haven", fall to hell or just stop existing because your brain stops working are only unrelevant details for this.

You are DEAD.

 

Well, in some religions they do believe that you can still influence the world after death.

 

The dead pray for the living, and in some cases intercede for them -- not just for their salvation (which is considered more important of course) but for certain events in their lives.

 

In the Roman Catholic religion, you can be elevated to sainthood if (among other things) it can be proven that three miracles can be attributed to you. Oh, but you have to be dead first, of course. "Living Saint" is just a turn of phrase for Catholics.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

IIRC' date=' he did express an opinion on the afterlife: that he didn't have one. .[/quote']

 

But his desire to learn to be "more human" had no bearing on his lack of belief in an afterlife.

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

But his desire to learn to be "more human" had no bearing on his lack of belief in an afterlife.

To the contrary, he explicitedly said learning he was mortal brought him closer to being human.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/226.htm

LAFORGE: So, do you want to talk about it?

DATA: Are you referring to the foreknowledge of my death?

LAFORGE: Yeah.

DATA: I have no particular desire to discuss the matter. Do you need to talk about it?

LAFORGE: Yeah.

DATA: Why?

LAFORGE: Data, this has got to bother you a little.

DATA: On the contrary. I find it rather comforting.

LAFORGE: Comforting?

DATA: I have often wondered about my own mortality as I have seen others around me age. Until now it has been theoretically possible that I would live an unlimited period of time. And although some might find this attractive, to me it only reinforces the fact that I am artificial.

LAFORGE: I never knew how tough this must be for you.

DATA: Tough? As in difficult?

LAFORGE: Knowing that you would outlive all your friends.

DATA: I expected to make new friends.

LAFORGE: True.

DATA: And then to outlive them as well.

LAFORGE: Now that you know that you might not?

DATA: It provides a sense of completion to my future. In a way, I am not that different from anyone else. I can now look forward to death.

LAFORGE: I never thought of it that way.

DATA: One might also conclude that it brings me one step closer to being human. I am mortal.

You have come up with an idiosyncratic and frankly offensive checklist for what constitutes "religion," claimed that none of those were present, and hand-waved away proof to the contrary.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

If you asume you have one and it will be judged by your actions in your life.

 

But even then you are still dead. Your ability to influence the world has ended, if that means you "acced to haven", fall to hell or just stop existing because your brain stops working are only unrelevant details for this.

You are DEAD.

 

Except that it's not irrelevant at all, since we're talking about what price might be higher than one's life. Your soul could be a legitimate answer to the question. You assume that death comes with it, but perhaps your life goes on as normal or even enhanced (Faustian deal, anyone?), but when the inevitable occurs... Or what if you NEVER die? You are doomed to live forever for your actions?

 

Just another way to interpret it, that's all.

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Except that it's not irrelevant at all' date=' since we're talking about what price might be higher than one's life. Your soul could be a legitimate answer to the question. You assume that death comes with it, but perhaps your life goes on as normal or even enhanced (Faustian deal, anyone?), but when the inevitable occurs... Or what if you NEVER die? You are doomed to live forever for your actions?[/quote']

I think the life ends when your brains stops working and nothign else happens. No "white light", no heaven, nothing. There might be something, or there might be nothing - but that is not important for me.

However, this is the world I life in. This is the world that matters right now. I have proof that my actions affect this world and no proof of a world beyond that.

 

All my informations indicate that the human being is by default, a good person. Every single one of us has the potential to be a Ghandi, Moter Teresa or literal living saint.

Problem is: We are just to easy to distract from our nature. Most of us are just to busy living in this world to note what really matters. They simply oversee our good nature and follow rather simple, but strong emotions. They are so tied up in them, they have a hard time even noticing it and if they do - they mostly just jump deeper into them, because they think it would help.

 

Or in short: I am good guy here and now. Not because I want to come into heaven, not because I fear hell. I simply am. Not reason whatsoever.

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I think the life ends when your brains stops working and nothign else happens. No "white light", no heaven, nothing. There might be something, or there might be nothing - but that is not important for me.

However, this is the world I life in. This is the world that matters right now. I have proof that my actions affect this world and no proof of a world beyond that.

 

All my informations indicate that the human being is by default, a good person. Every single one of us has the potential to be a Ghandi, Moter Teresa or literal living saint.

Problem is: We are just to easy to distract from our nature. Most of us are just to busy living in this world to note what really matters. They simply oversee our good nature and follow rather simple, but strong emotions. They are so tied up in them, they have a hard time even noticing it and if they do - they mostly just jump deeper into them, because they think it would help.

 

Or in short: I am good guy here and now. Not because I want to come into heaven, not because I fear hell. I simply am. Not reason whatsoever.

 

This is relatively optimistic. It reminds me of the Confucian internal conflict between Mencius & Xunzi over whether or not human nature was good (sensitive & responsible) or bad (needed work).

 

I think of human nature as being rather more prone to complications that are both comic [life] & tragic [death].

 

Humanity, to me, is essentially a good state of being that smacks of a false utopia. The problem is that it requires a suspension of disbelief to work.

 

2 solutions based on playing make believe...

 

"I abduct my abduction," is a lazy uninteresting tautology that indicates that a literal suspension of disbelief is a mere matter of abducting.

 

No one you can indicate is representative of humanity [positively all humanity].

 

Arbitrary conventions are required to maintain humanity. What can be more specious than being a human? A human is a mythical creature. Being a human is an artificial state of being that is privileged with virtual anonymity. What is a person that is not mythical? To not be mythical is anathema to humanity.

 

"I am a civil belief engineer," is analogous to indicating that a literal suspension of disbelief is a mere matter of civil belief engineering. Why not a literal suspension of disbelief? Is a false utopia too complex a thing for that to require?

 

 

~ Mister E ("You want me to make a false utopia? I am my own abduction, not a civil belief engineer!")

[Manic Typist]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I think the life ends when your brains stops working and nothign else happens. No "white light", no heaven, nothing. There might be something, or there might be nothing - but that is not important for me.

However, this is the world I life in. This is the world that matters right now. I have proof that my actions affect this world and no proof of a world beyond that.

 

All my informations indicate that the human being is by default, a good person. Every single one of us has the potential to be a Ghandi, Moter Teresa or literal living saint.

Problem is: We are just to easy to distract from our nature. Most of us are just to busy living in this world to note what really matters. They simply oversee our good nature and follow rather simple, but strong emotions. They are so tied up in them, they have a hard time even noticing it and if they do - they mostly just jump deeper into them, because they think it would help.

 

Or in short: I am good guy here and now. Not because I want to come into heaven, not because I fear hell. I simply am. Not reason whatsoever.

 

Ok.

 

But none of that has anything to do with the simple statement that a soul is worth more than a mere life. You don't have to believe in souls, of course. If souls don't exist, then the statement is meaningless really. It's false, although there could be other things still higher than life but they're probably going to be more subjective than "Well, yes, IF souls exist, then I suppose an eternity of suffering in the future outweighs a mere span of mortal years."

 

Nothing I said had anything to do with why human nature is what it is, or why people are good and what makes them bad. Simply, a life is not necessarily the highest price to pay, WHETHER OR NOT souls exist.

 

To make it more relevant to thread, how might we conceive of such a thing in a sci-fi setting? Perhaps you can offer up your consciousness, digitally downloaded into some network....hm....

[Ravor]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I think perhaps a simpler way to put it is this; Would you die in place of a family member or friend? How about a total stranger? Why or why not?

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

t's false' date=' although there could be other things still higher than life[/quote']

The end of your life is the point where you stop influencing the world in a meanignfull way. I consider what a person has done while alive more important than what may or may not happen to him in the beyond.

 

And even most "deal with the devil" stories I know are about the bad/inhuman things the "Dealmaker" does while he is still alive. Not what fate he suffers after dying.

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I think perhaps a simpler way to put it is this; Would you die in place of a family member or friend? How about a total stranger?

As a veteran, I believe that is what I agreed to do if necessary when I took my oath of enlistment.

 

Why or why not?

"Pay it forward." Others had made that promise/paid that price on my behalf, it was my turn.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

The end of your life is the point where you stop influencing the world in a meanignfull way. I consider what a person has done while alive more important than what may or may not happen to him in the beyond.

 

And even most "deal with the devil" stories I know are about the bad/inhuman things the "Dealmaker" does while he is still alive. Not what fate he suffers after dying.

 

In some stories the devil making the deal is portrayed as essentially someone who puts the dealee through their own "personal hell" by showing them that what they want isn't necessarily the same as what they need(e.g., a hedonistic life is an empty, lonely one; money only brings new problems; fame destroys your privacy; goals become meaningless and boring if there's no challenge to it, etc.) They are a mentor/teacher, in the "School of Hard Knocks" sense. In the movie "Bedazzled", the main character escaped being claimed by the Devil by finally wishing for something unselfish. (Of course, if the Devil shows up looking like Liz Hurley and offers you anything you wish for, you begin to wonder about PIS when the character doesn't wish for the obvious, instant gratification thing...)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Pis?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Pis?

 

Plot Induced Stupidity--behaving irrationally due to the needs of the plot

[Manic Typist]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Ah ya.

[Ravor]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Thank you for your service McCoy, perhaps I should have been clearer in what I meant but your answer doesn't really address the issue I'm trying to touch because when you signed up in addition to the benefits of serving you knew that there was a chance that you would be called upon to pay the ultimate price for freedom. I'm asking about who you would actually stone cold die for, not who you would risk death for. Maybe it's true that the answers to both questions are the same for you in which case I think you are perhaps a more moral person than most.