Religion in Science-Fiction?

[Lucius]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Um' date=' I feel like you're just making a claim here because it helps you. Because I sincerely doubt the majority of US Christians flatly denies evolution (believing in Intelligent Design, however....). Also, the candidates are definitionally a fringe group catering to fringe tastes in order to secure additional votes.[/quote']

 

One wins an election by appealing to the majority.

 

If the candidates are vocally opposing evolution, that suggests that they, at least, think this will gain them more votes than it would lose them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I wonder what their stance on palindromedaries is

[Manic Typist]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

One wins an election by appealing to the majority.

 

If the candidates are vocally opposing evolution, that suggests that they, at least, think this will gain them more votes than it would lose them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I wonder what their stance on palindromedaries is

 

Not exactly.

 

One wins an election (in the US) by appealing to a majority (sort of, electoral college yadda yadda), but one does so by playing games. Weighing and hedging, blending things to come up with the right milieu of voters.

 

For instance, if I can take position X (Evolution= false) without losing too many of my mainstream voters ("Well, he's an idiot for not believing in evolution.... but really what do I care about that? I more care about his policies on gun control and taxes!), and pickup the fringe groups on top... I can do that.

 

So all that signals is that they feel they can do that without alienating too many people, not that those people agree with them. Or, it could signal that they genuinely believe evolution is false, and are just campaigning on principle....

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Giordano Bruno was NOT an urban myth. He was a real person who was executed, as in burned at the stake, for suggesting the sun was a star like others and that other stars could harbor life-bearing planets as ours does. Look it up!

 

When was this? I have never heard that before, but I know the church hasn't had anyone burned at the stake for a long time. Maybe it's just my ignorance of how long the idea of aliens has been in popular conscious.

 

 

As for what "mainstream" Christianity denies, for starters you have evolution which the majority of Christians in the US denies which include all the GOP candidates for President. That's a bit more than a fringe group. It's not mentioned in their Bible yet it has been proven true.

 

I have never heard any of the candidates deny that evolution exists. Nor has any preacher in any church I've ever attended. The majority of Christians does not deny evolution. What we deny is the idea that it's all a random accident.

 

Part of why SF assumes that religions will die out is looking at current trends. In the past few hundred years scientific discoveries have hacked away at the authority and claims of the church. For example science has shown the universe does not need a creator and was not created as described in holy books. In most civilized parts of the world, the influence of religion has been decreasing as more people either don't take it as literally or even leave it all together. With science, people have come to expect more proof than a collection of books selected by a committee can provide. As the demand for solid evidence increases those who cannot provide it will wane in influence and size. SF also looks at past trends. The religions of the ancient Greeks and Egyptians also endured thousands of years but they have died out as well only to be replaced. Why should today's faiths be exempt from that pattern? So I guess a better question should be, why do you assume today's religion would continue to endure when so many others have faded away?

 

 

OK, that is a good point. Other religions have faded out and died away..well, not completely. I had a friend in college who was an Odinist. But the reason I believe my religion will endure is because I believe it is true. You do not, which is your opinion and you're entitled to it. But, by the same token, you have to admit that those religions were replaced by a different religion, not by a lack of religion. So, even if it's not the religions we know, what makes you so sure there won't be a belief system of some kind as long as humanity endures?

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I like your world better than the one I live in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

Yes, in the 1600s, people would be executed for such thoughts. But as the post I was operating from mentioned neitehr date nor name, but did specificly refer to extraterrestrial aliens, I assumed it must be much later. My bad.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

---snip---

 

 

 

That is all very cool.

 

The fact that you seemed to be participating in the discussion fooled me into believing that you actually were.

 

"The devil can site scripture for his own purpose! An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek." (Merchant Of Venice)

 

Interestingly enough, the above Merchant quote (supposedly composed by Shakespeare) is a reference to the logic battle between Jesus (who need no introduction) & the Devil, the "original" alien.

 

What exactly do you mean by that? How am I not participating in the conversation? As for the remarks about Nephilim, my understanding has always been that the "Sons of God" mentioned were Angels, making the nephilim half human/half angel. There is a difference between angels and aliens. and between terrestrial aliens nd extraterretrial aliens, which is what the conversation seems to be about. And maybe I'm just dense, but how is the quote from Merchant of Venice relevant? It's not as if I'm quoting Stephen Hawking to try to prove God exists.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well the major religions of today were created thousands of years ago when people knew little about the way the world worked

 

I think LDS and Scientology are pretty major.

 

 

Well if your god sent his ONLY son to Earth to save humanity' date=' who saved the aliens? The OT never mentioned aliens and the only sentient non-humans he supposedly created were angels. Aliens present a problem in that they are something your god did not create exists. [/quote']

 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that that the only sentient non-humans he created were angels. Christians could conclude that that the aliens either already had their own saviour or were still awaiting one but most of them would conclude that humanity lucked out and now had the responsibility of spreading the faith to all peoples.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I think LDS and Scientology are pretty major.

 

 

 

 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that that the only sentient non-humans he created were angels. Christians could conclude that that the aliens either already had their own saviour or were still awaiting one but most of them would conclude that humanity lucked out and now had the responsibility of spreading the faith to all peoples.

 

There you go.

[ErikModi]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

It's not mentioned in their Bible yet it has been proven true.

 

To be perfectly fair, evolution has not been PROVEN to be true. It is a Theory, well-tested but not undeniably proven, not a Law, which has been tested and undeniably proven.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Law

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

 

It is the best theory currently available, and does a very good job at hammering out what's going on, but there are anomalies it does not quite account for yet. As a scientific principle, it is still being examined and refined to "nail down" exactly what it is and how it functions, but there's nothing wrong with that, that's exactly how science works. Come up with an idea (hypothesis), test it, test it, test it again, test it some more to see if it holds up (theory), revise it or throw it out if it doesn't, and eventually come up with a complete, encompassing explanation for the phenomena in question (law.)

 

Now, there are actually very few Christians who both A) except that every word in the Bible is literal fact and the Bible covers absolutely everything. The Christians who do make such claims are what I call a "vocal minority," a relatively small group who just happen to make a big enough noise that everyone thinks there are many, many more of them. I've had long talks with devout Catholics, even one who was at one point in the Seminary to become a priest, and we've agreed a four billion year old Earth and the existence of dinosaurs millions of years before humanity does not at all conflict with Genesis. It's not in there simply because God, like any GOOD author, knows what's important to the story and what isn't. Dinosaurs don't matter to the story of early humanity, so they're left out. Likewise, extraterrestrials don't matter to the story of humanity yet, so they are left out. Unlike Tolkien, God doesn't feel the need to give us twenty pages of history that are completely irrelevant to the story at hand.

 

In fact, I don't recall Genesis mentioning the creation of Angels either, at least not in the "cliff notes" opening about the six days of creation. Angels seem to just spring up into the story, with no previous indication that they were there. So, it would follow that the creation of Angels was not an important thing in regards to the story of humanity, while our interactions with Angels are. I freely admit that I am certainly not a theologian or great student of the Bible, so I may be quite wrong on that point.

 

A few pages ago, I'd brought up a few instances of religion in Babylon 5, one of which was a brotherhood of Christian monks who traveled to Babylon 5 to meet and speak with many alien races, learning about their religions and faiths, reasoning that God was responsible for all life in the universe, and thus revealed himself to them all in different ways. Compiling all this data, learning all these "faces of God" could only bring them closer to knowing the truth of God Himself. This is one excellent way in which scholarly Christianity can make its way into the stars and adapt to the discovery of extraterrestrial life.

 

Quite simply, the reason I think that most Science Fiction leaves religion out of the equation is because most people who believe strongly in science do not believe strongly in God, or do not believe at all. It is only relatively recently that many people have moved away from the idea that science and religion are mutually exclusive. Even as a kid growing up in the 80s, it seemed as though if you accepted science as true, then you were not allowed to be religious, and if you were religious, you were not allowed to be scientific. Thankfully this is being challenged today, and one is free to believe in as much or as little as one wishes.

 

This is summed up quite excellently by a quote from the Season 4 Finale of Babylon 5:

 

Faith and Reason are the shoes on your feet, you can go farther on both than you can on one alone.

[Alverant]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Um, I feel like you're just making a claim here because it helps you. Because I sincerely doubt the majority of US Christians flatly denies evolution (believing in Intelligent Design, however....). Also, the candidates are definitionally a fringe group catering to fringe tastes in order to secure additional votes.

 

Also, perhaps you shouldn't state so emphatically to someone (after seeming to be offended by their question) to "Look it up!" You provided a vague anecdote, the onus is on you to cite it.

Research done by oneself is better than getting it spoon fed. I provided a name and as long as google is around, people should do their own work.

 

As for the majority of christians who don't accept evolution, here's a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

48% of the US population accepts evolution and even then it's "evolution plus God".

[Alverant]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I think LDS and Scientology are pretty major.

That's your right, but considering their numbers I disagree.

 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that that the only sentient non-humans he created were angels. Christians could conclude that that the aliens either already had their own saviour or were still awaiting one but most of them would conclude that humanity lucked out and now had the responsibility of spreading the faith to all peoples.

So where does the christian Bible say that God created other sentient non-humans? Granted christians COULD conclude the aliens have their own Christ (the title given to a savior). They COULD also claim aliens were created by the devil too and needed to be exterminated or saved. Given what has happened in the past 1700 years when christians have encountered non-christians, which one do you think is more likely?

[Alverant]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

To be perfectly fair' date=' evolution has not been PROVEN to be true. It is a Theory, well-tested but not undeniably proven, not a Law, which has been tested and undeniably proven.[/quote']

Unfortunately some people don't grasp or want to grasp the difference between a theory in the scientific sense and a theory as used by the layperson. It's like saying that because you're missing one piece of a 1000 peace puzzle its the same as missing 900 pieces and therefore you have no clue about what the final picture is. For all practical purposes, evolution is proven true. No better theory has come along and the current data confirms it as being true.

 

It's not in there simply because God' date=' like any GOOD author, knows what's important to the story and what isn't.[/quote']

Good authors also don't have blatant contradictions or have their books written by committee. So I guess God is not a good author. I would also say that accurate information IS important to the story but you admit that is lacking in the Bible. For example dinosaurs ARE important to the story of early humanity because if they didn't go extinct, humanity would not have evolved. Instead we have events with scientific explanations being replaced by "miracles", something a good author does not do unless they are writing fiction.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

 

Granted christians COULD conclude the aliens have their own Christ (the title given to a savior). They COULD also claim aliens were created by the devil too and needed to be exterminated or saved. Given what has happened in the past 1700 years when christians have encountered non-christians, which one do you think is more likely?

 

Neither. Based on history, the most likely reaction is that they'll missionary the heck out of extraterrestrials if given the chance. Look, I've less than no interest in getting into a wrangle about whether Christianity is factually true or internally consistent. The only relevant point is whether they'd adjust to including aliens in their world-view without abandoning their religion, and I'm quite confident they would.

[lemming]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

That's your right' date=' but considering their numbers I disagree.[/quote']

What counts as a major religion then? According to some stats I've found on the web, LDS is the 4th most populous religion in the US.

 

Both LDS & Scientology are interesting in that they came into existence in fairly recent history and could be documented outside of their church. (despite some cases of trying to bury it.)

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

To be perfectly fair' date=' evolution has not been PROVEN to be true. It is a Theory, well-tested but not undeniably proven, not a Law, which has been tested and undeniably proven.[/quote']

Wrong, so very wrong on several levels.

 

First, there is no hard and fast dividing line between a theory and a law, just a matter of popular usage. There is no process analogous to how a bill becomes a law stating how a theory becomes a law. You can speak of the theory or gravity or the law of gravity, and both usages are correct.

 

Second, evolution is a process that can be observed, documented, proven in any high school biology classroom. It is dificult to say that something observed time and time and time again has not been proven.

 

"After all, gravity is just a theory! Just because we've thrown a bocce ball out the window and it hit the ground a thousand times in a row doesn't mean it's going to this time!"

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

OK' date=' that is a good point. Other religions have faded out and died away..well, not completely. I had a friend in college who was an Odinist. But the reason I believe my religion will endure is because I believe it is true. [/quote']

Wish I could find it again to properly cite it, but I ran across a statement a few months back something like Historically scholars have divided religions into two categories, the false ones and their own.

 

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Natural Selection is a theory, Evolution is an observed empirical phenomenon(i.e., a fact).

[Alverant]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

What counts as a major religion then? According to some stats I've found on the web, LDS is the 4th most populous religion in the US.

 

Both LDS & Scientology are interesting in that they came into existence in fairly recent history and could be documented outside of their church. (despite some cases of trying to bury it.)

 

Personally I consider LDS to be a sect of christianity since its full name is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". What counts as a major religion? When they can put up a bill board and it does NOT make the national news.

[assault]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Personally I consider LDS to be a sect of christianity since its full name is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

 

The LDS churches did emerge from the Second Great Awakening movement in Christianity, which gives them some kind of claim to being Christian.

 

That said, they have also added scriptures outside of, and incompatible with, the standard Christian canon. This puts them at least into the category of heresy, and in practical terms outside Christianity completely.

 

There are comparable cases from other religious contexts. For example, groups like the Baha'i faith emerged from Islam in a similar manner. There is no meaningful way that they could be described as Moslems.

 

The Samaritans are another interesting group. The similarity of their religion to, and its common origins with, Judaism are obvious, but they aren't typically regarded as Jews.

 

But, of course, what would I know? I'm an atheist.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

The LDS churches did emerge from the Second Great Awakening movement in Christianity, which gives them some kind of claim to being Christian.

 

That said, they have also added scriptures outside of, and incompatible with, the standard Christian canon. This puts them at least into the category of heresy, and in practical terms outside Christianity completely.

 

There are comparable cases from other religious contexts. For example, groups like the Baha'i faith emerged from Islam in a similar manner. There is no meaningful way that they could be described as Moslems.

 

The Samaritans are another interesting group. The similarity of their religion to, and its common origins with, Judaism are obvious, but they aren't typically regarded as Jews.

 

But, of course, what would I know? I'm an atheist.

 

I also consider the LDS to be a denomination of Christianity. Anyone who worships Jesus Christ and believes He is the only Son of God is, by definition, a Christian. As for Baha'i, I think you're slightly off about its origin. I dated a girl in college who's family was of the Baha'i faith, and they said it was an offshoot of Judaism. But that may have been a mistake on their part. Or it could be shoddy memory on my part.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Wish I could find it again to properly cite it, but I ran across a statement a few months back something like Historically scholars have divided religions into two categories, the false ones and their own.

 

 

Nice.

[assault]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

As for Baha'i' date=' I think you're slightly off about its origin. I dated a girl in college who's family was of the Baha'i faith, and they said it was an offshoot of Judaism. But that may have been a mistake on their part. Or it could be shoddy memory on my part.[/quote']

 

The official Baha'i website.

 

But this is off topic, so I'll leave it alone from now.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Research done by oneself is better than getting it spoon fed. I provided a name and as long as google is around, people should do their own work.

 

...except that you didn't. You supplied the name LATER, in the same post where you berated him for not doing the research that he couldn't have done since you didn't cite anything except a vague description. You also seemed to take it personally that he even asked a question about it.

 

 

Physician, heal thyself!

[McCoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

The LDS churches did emerge from the Second Great Awakening movement in Christianity, which gives them some kind of claim to being Christian.

 

That said, they have also added scriptures outside of, and incompatible with, the standard Christian canon. This puts them at least into the category of heresy,

Along with Protestants, Episcopalians, and Charismatics. How many angels are we going to make dance on that pin? The extremes are (1) "Christian" is the Cathoic Church and (2) "Christian" is anyone who self-identifies as Christian. I favor the scond one.

 

And yes, I am aware of the irony of an atheist and a Buddhist trying to define "Christian,"

but sometimes it does help to take that step back and not be too close to the question.

[ErikModi]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Wrong, so very wrong on several levels.

 

First, there is no hard and fast dividing line between a theory and a law, just a matter of popular usage. There is no process analogous to how a bill becomes a law stating how a theory becomes a law. You can speak of the theory or gravity or the law of gravity, and both usages are correct.

 

And you've just proven you know nothing about science.

[assault]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Along with Protestants' date=' Episcopalians, and Charismatics. How many angels are we going to make dance on that pin?[/quote']

 

Which additional scriptures have these folks added?

 

By and large they've stayed within the realms of heresy, rather than being a new religion.

 

Of course, technically, "Christianity" = one or more of the Orthodox churches, not that schismatic Roman rubbish.... or the Copts, or....