megaplayboy Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookay. Can we steer the thread back towards Religion and Science-Fiction? Sure. One way to look at it is, historically and culturally speaking, what has been the practical purpose served by organized religion? Which of these purposes would remain relevant in a sci-fi setting? Once you have the answer to that, then you have a range of parameters for coming up with futuristic belief systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? So, it basically boils down to: "My science can prove a deity doesn't exist" "Your science could NEVER be that advanced" and so forth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? [bold & underline emphases added by me] I assume that God is everything' date=' unlimited, universal, contained by nothing...[b'] etc.[/b] Logically, God is the set of all things... the one (and only) omni-predicated "being". I assume this is the identity of God in order to test it with a solution that includes my own identity. Except that you seem to have confused omnipresence ("God is everywhere") with pantheism ("God is everything / everything is God"). Okay, sure, yeah. This really is BS wordplay. But I think there is something worth salvaging. As an ontological argument (i.e., talking about what exists), the distinction (between what & where) is irrelevant on this level for what I'm trying to explicate. Regardless, let me attempt to fix it: I assume that God is everywhere, unlimited, universal, contained by nothing... etc. Logically, God is the set of all points... the one (and only) omni-predicated "setting". I assume this is the locality of God in order to test it with a solution that includes my own locality. Extrapolate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? So, it basically boils down to: "My science can prove a deity doesn't exist" "Your science could NEVER be that advanced" and so forth? I'm not sure whether you're responding to me. My point is that, historically, religion has had the purpose of 1. explaining the unexplainable 2. providing a sense of common purpose to a community of believers 3. providing a moral framework for societies 4. acting as the "glue" holding a particular community together 5. being a source of support and comfort for those in need It seems like all of those purposes might still exist in a futuristic/sci-fi setting, so the parameters for creating fictional faiths in a SFRPG setting are very broad, indeed. You could even have alien faiths which have yet other social purposes in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Could we get back onto the topic, which it was not Religion vs. Science. It was asking to discuss Religion in Science-Fiction. I see absolutely nothing to preclude the idea that modern Earth religions wouldn't continue on to the stars, in fact, if you had slow non-FTL colonization coupled with the very current proliferation of private space flight, could lead to private colonization (ala The Pilgrims.) I can guarantee that we would have people leaving this planet for the freedom to practice their religion in a society that was mandated by social contract to be based on those religious ideals (just like the Pilgrims.) Now, this would be even more prevalent with an FTL based space travel society because the greater pool of planets on which to draw from. This would even possibly lead to greater speciation of humanity due to the isolation of populations to 10,000-30,000 people. I am rather surprised that this isn't explored more in SciFi. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Could we get back onto the topic' date=' which it was [b']not[/b] Religion vs. Science. It was asking to discuss Religion in Science-Fiction. I see absolutely nothing to preclude the idea that modern Earth religions wouldn't continue on to the stars, in fact, if you had slow non-FTL colonization coupled with the very current proliferation of private space flight, could lead to private colonization (ala The Pilgrims.) I can guarantee that we would have people leaving this planet for the freedom to practice their religion in a society that was mandated by social contract to be based on those religious ideals (just like the Pilgrims.) Now, this would be even more prevalent with an FTL based space travel society because the greater pool of planets on which to draw from. This would even possibly lead to greater speciation of humanity due to the isolation of populations to 10,000-30,000 people. I am rather surprised that this isn't explored more in SciFi. TB Well, if you have STL travel and communication, then schisms in such religious sects(that is, between sects on different planets) would be likely inevitable over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Regardless, let me attempt to fix it: I assume that God is everywhere, unlimited, universal, contained by nothing... etc. Logically, God is the set of all points... the one (and only) omni-predicated "setting". I assume this is the locality of God in order to test it with a solution that includes my own locality. Extrapolate. No, God is not the set of all points, God is located at the set of all points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Could we get back onto the topic' date=' which it was [b']not[/b] Religion vs. Science. It was asking to discuss Religion in Science-Fiction. "Religion vs. Science" is a facet of "Religion in Science-Fiction". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? "Religion vs. Science" is a facet of "Religion in Science-Fiction". But it isn't the whole jewel, which this thread had become. So, I personally am more interested in discussing how religion would be used IN SciFi, speculate. Nothing in this thread so far has been speculative, it is has just been rehashing contemporary philosophical arguments. Which have a place in forward looking speculation, it isn't the sum total of what this topic should be framed as. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I'm not sure whether you're responding to me. My point is that, historically, religion has had the purpose of 1. explaining the unexplainable 2. providing a sense of common purpose to a community of believers 3. providing a moral framework for societies 4. acting as the "glue" holding a particular community together 5. being a source of support and comfort for those in need Religion can and has been used to validate the "status quo". Most forms of subjugation have a "it is so because god/the heaven defined it that way". So it is a powerfull intrument of opressive governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravor Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? True, but on the upside it also has been a great uplifting factor and source of strenght and preverence for people throughout the ages and I doubt that will ever change either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? True' date=' but on the upside it also has been a great uplifting factor and source of strenght and preverence for people throughout the ages and I doubt that will ever change either.[/quote'] I'm on record as believing it has been demonstrated that humans have a need for religion, possibly gene deep, and even in an athiestic culture something will be elevated to a de facto religion. I think South Park showed this well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Could we get back onto the topic' date=' which it was [b']not[/b] Religion vs. Science. It was asking to discuss Religion in Science-Fiction. I see absolutely nothing to preclude the idea that modern Earth religions wouldn't continue on to the stars, in fact, if you had slow non-FTL colonization coupled with the very current proliferation of private space flight, could lead to private colonization (ala The Pilgrims.) I can guarantee that we would have people leaving this planet for the freedom to practice their religion in a society that was mandated by social contract to be based on those religious ideals (just like the Pilgrims.) Just to nitpick, but the Pilgrims didn't come to the US to practice their religion in peace: they had already left the UK years before they made the trip to the US to practice their religion in peace in Holland. They just couldn't get rich (or even upper middle-class) in Holland. There was no available land and most of them worked as tradesmen. They went back to the UK and arranged passage to the US as a commercial deal - in other words, they moved with the very American goal of making money. We have a pretty good idea of what they were thinking and worrying about through all those years since much of their correspondence is preserved. Not all (or even most) of the 100 settlers in their fleet were puritans: the fleet was supposed to go to Virginia to join the existing (non-puritan) colony there. They only ended up at Cape Cod due to a mixture of accidents, bad weather and incompetent seamanship. So they're probably not a great example of religious migration. On the other hand, your basic point is still sound - the Mormon trek to Utah is a decent example. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? No' date=' God is [i']not[/i] the set of all points, God is located at the set of all points. K... Saying, "located at," is redundant. Just 'at' is simpler. To be clear, I'm now making a distinction between being a set (group) & being at a set (local... like a movie set or a jewel set)... A set (local) of all points may be called, "an infinite set (local)." Subject: God Copula: is Predicate: at an infinite set (local). Even when talking about location, the issue is still an ontological matter of being located. ~ Mister E ("I asked WHERE (not what) is the point.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? But it isn't the whole jewel, which this thread had become. So, I personally am more interested in discussing how religion would be used IN SciFi, speculate. Nothing in this thread so far has been speculative, it is has just been rehashing contemporary philosophical arguments. Which have a place in forward looking speculation, it isn't the sum total of what this topic should be framed as. TB It doesn't have to be, as it still concerns the topic. And by the way, no one's forcing anyone to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Religion can and has been used to validate the "status quo". Most forms of subjugation have a "it is so because god/the heaven defined it that way". So it is a powerfull intrument of opressive governments. It can and has also been used to reject and defy the status quo. Many rebellions have a "God wills it!" justification. So it is also a powerful instrument of resistance to authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Too true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Compare/consider the distribution of characteristics (between the subjects & predicates) that is going on in the following four (AEIO) statements: A: (a universal affirmation) "God is omni-predicated." E: (a universal negation) "God is not omni-predicated." I: (a particular affirmation) "Part of God is omni-predicated." O: (a particular negation) "Part of God is not omni-predicated." "A" refers to all of God & part of everything that is omni-predicated. The characteristics of the subject are distributed to the predicate. "E" refers to all of God & all of everything that is omni-predicated. The characteristics of the subject are distributed to the predicate & the characteristics of the predicate are distributed to the subject . "I" refers to part of God & part of everything that is omni-predicated. No characteristics are distributed. "O" refers to part of God & all of everything that is omni-predicated. The characteristics of the predicate are distributed to the subject. The consequences of "A": If you talk about God, you know you are likewise talking about something that is omni-predicated. However, if you talk about something that is omni-predicated, you do not know (whether or not) you are likewise talking about God. The consequences of "E": If you talk about God, you know you are not likewise talking about something that is omni-predicated. Furthermore, if you talk about something that is omni-predicated, you know you are not likewise talking about God. The consequence of "I": If you talk about God, you do not know (whether or not) you are likewise talking about something that is omni-predicated. Furthermore, if you talk about something that is omni-predicated, you do not know (whether or not) you are likewise talking about God. The consequence of "O": If you talk about God, you do not know (whether or not) you are likewise talking about something that is omni-predicated. However, if you talk about something that is omni-predicated, you know you are not likewise talking about God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? It can and has also been used to reject and defy the status quo. Many rebellions have a "God wills it!" justification. So it is also a powerful instrument of resistance to authority. I would disagree, somewhat. As far as I can see, in my studies of history, religion has all but never been used to attack authority, but rather, to supplant it. Those few rebellions that not only attacked the current authority but also authority itself are usually also ones that reject religion as a strong motivating force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I would disagree' date=' somewhat. As far as I can see, in my studies of history, religion has all but never been used to attack authority, but rather, to [i']supplant [/i]it. Those few rebellions that not only attacked the current authority but also authority itself are usually also ones that reject religion as a strong motivating force. It depends a little on how much you cling to "I believe in a God" as religion. For me every "in the name of a higher cause" counts. The Original Nazism has for me the aspects of a "Racial Religion" and all applications of Communism I know of also have religious aspects (despite being atheistically on the surface). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Actually, I agree with you as to communism being a religious-styled philosophy. The Nazis used religion, but it wasn't their big thing - but then, they didn't have a successful revolution either, they were voted into power using the existing system. However, certain revolutions - the American and French are notable, but not singular - attacked not merely the government, but the very basis of authority existent to that time. Such revolts tended to be opposed to religion, commonly because the religion supported the Ancien regime, but also often due to philosophical opposition to religion, or at least in it;s organized form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I would disagree' date=' somewhat. As far as I can see, in my studies of history, religion has all but never been used to attack authority, but rather, to [i']supplant [/i]it. Those few rebellions that not only attacked the current authority but also authority itself are usually also ones that reject religion as a strong motivating force. Well, I was speaking about authority, as in a particular authority in a given time. I agree with you regarding religion and rebellions against Authority. I'd suspect that any religion that was in rebellion against Authority itself (i.e. was basically "anarchistic") probably wouldn't be interested in getting organized enough to seek to supplant the Authority. Then again, Buddhists can go to war too, so I'm baffled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Then again' date=' Buddhists can go to war too, so I'm baffled.[/quote'] Going to war has nothing to do with it. Opressing people with Religion/Tradition/Pseudo-Religious "Higher cause" as justification is what we are takling about. Examples: European Monarchy was more or less covered by the church. It was "mandated by god" that things where as they should be and everybody thinking different was a problem/propably got to hell. China - Confucianism was banned for almost 200 Years, until the ruling class figured out how to justify their ruling with it. Japan - direct descendancy from the heaven Egypt - same here too Greek - they kinda made their gods to make their deeds the acceptable norm. Their gods and the roman ones (who copied them practicall 1:1), are the only gods I know of who are examples on adultry and homosexuality. Hitler - he saw himself as "the Messias of the German people and the Arian race". Practiced Communism - for the "good of the working class", we have to supress the working class and free thinking In each of these chases the Monarch/Ruling party based/bases their legitimation on a higher cause. Be it "god says so" or "our self defined higher cause". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? alfully close to "we hold these truths to be self evident" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? alfully close to "we hold these truths to be self evident" Like Founding Fatherism hasn't risen to a religion at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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