Christopher Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? That movie bothered me. Let's say you've been given god-like powers. Omniscience is one of the alleged properties of god. Wouldn't the first thing one should do be to use the godlike omniscience to foretell the consequences of ones actions or inactions ? I agree with Major Tom: Just because you have the STR of superman, doesn't means you know how to use it to the same effect. Or that you even know you have a active ability (Heatvision) and how to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Which was sort of the point. He felt his wisdom was superior to God's. Anyone else caught off guard by that movie? I went in expecting just another Jim Carrey comedy, and it was FAR more serious than I'd ever anticipated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Well, I think one of the limitations we have as humans is that, however good we may be at imagining/conceiving of omnipotence, we're really not nearly as good at imagining/conceiving of omniscience. A being who knows everything, is capable of holding an infinite number of ideas simultaneously, and thinking at levels we can't even imagine--it's beyond us. I could maybe conceive of a 130 year old with a 300 IQ, every savant trick/talent in the world(lightning calculator, total recall, speed reading, etc.), who's fluent in 50 languages and has the equivalent of instant access to google/wiki--as well as 5 Ph.Ds in diverse subject matter, has travelled all over the world and practiced a dozen different professions--and think of that being as "effectively nigh-omniscient", but a being with intellect and knowledge beyond what any human could ever achieve--well, that's beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Add to this, the ability to think beyond time. (after all , time is part of the universe and Gof created the universe, therfore he must exist outside his creations - including time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusterBoy Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? How about the return of sun worship? There's such a Church (set up by an astronomer turned priest who's gotten hold an abandoned space station) in Transhuman Space. The founder is sincere, but some of his congregation take it very seriously. Others see the joke. I have no fear that human beings will stop believing in God in the future. We are after all, a compulsively religious species. How this belief and worship systems manifest themselves after we move out into the cosmos I do not pretend to have the wisdom to guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Well, if you're going to worship something in nature, you could do a lot worse than the Sun, you know. It binds the solar system together with its gravity, and is the source of (nearly) all life on Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted September 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Black Hole worship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Black Hole worship. Or He Who Resides in The Darkness. All Black Holes lead to Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Omnipotence and Omniscience are mutually exclusive That movie bothered me. Let's say you've been given god-like powers. Omniscience is one of the alleged properties of god. Wouldn't the first thing one should do be to use the godlike omniscience to foretell the consequences of ones actions or inactions ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Hawk Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Omnipotence and Omniscience are mutually exclusive Omnipotence implies Omniscience. Omniscience implies Omnipotence. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? So you have the power to see all things that not can but WILL happen. Do you have the power to change your mind? If no then you are not Omnipotent. If you have the power to do anything you please exactly when it pleases you then you will not be able to know ahead of time what is going to happen next, much less for all eternity. If you knew that doing this will cause that which you'd need to correct then the correction is a limiting factor Omnipotence implies Omniscience. Omniscience implies Omnipotence. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I'd refer back to my earlier post--we really have a deeply limited intuitive/empathic capacity to understand what omniscience would really mean. We certainly couldn't assume that our definitions for metaphysical concepts such as good and evil would be remotely useful or meaningful to an omniscient being, who could literally see all the permutations and outcomes of the "butterfly effect". And don't get me started on omnipresence... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? So you have the power to see all things that not can but WILL happen. Do you have the power to change your mind? If no then you are not Omnipotent. If you have the power to do anything you please exactly when it pleases you then you will not be able to know ahead of time what is going to happen next' date=' much less for all eternity. If you knew that doing this will cause that which you'd need to correct then the correction is a limiting factor[/quote'] I think that is a logical fallacy myself. Someone once presented to me the idea that, if God knows exactly what we will do in every decision we ever make, then we do not actually have free will. I say that just knowing what someone will do does not "bind them" to doing it; you have predicted their actions but their actions are still their own. I think the same is true here - God could have all the power he wants to change things, and still decide not to, for reasons that we probably cannot comprehend. But then I'm agnostic and really don't care one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? And don't get me started on omnipresence... I want to someday build Omnipresent Man from the Basic Instructions web comic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Omniscience can best be classified as a "Santa Claus Gambit". something thrown out to stymie improper behavior in exchange for a promised reward to be given at a later date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Omniscience can best be classified as a "Santa Claus Gambit". something thrown out to stymie improper behavior in exchange for a promised reward to be given at a later date. No; that may indeed be your perception of it, and we certainly can't argue whether omniscience is possible or not at any scientific level... but to make the claim that "omniscience" is what you say it is... is simply a slight on those who believe in it as "real." Omniscience means "knowing everything" and is, quite simply, beyond our non-omniscient understanding I would think. Again, I'm agnostic, so don't care, but hate when any discussion of religion becomes an excuse to throw insults at anyone who might hold a different opinion than your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? No; that may indeed be your perception of it, and we certainly can't argue whether omniscience is possible or not at any scientific level... but to make the claim that "omniscience" is what you say it is... is simply a slight on those who believe in it as "real." Omniscience means "knowing everything" and is, quite simply, beyond our non-omniscient understanding I would think. Again, I'm agnostic, so don't care, but hate when any discussion of religion becomes an excuse to throw insults at anyone who might hold a different opinion than your own. Fair enough, but I find the notion of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to be insulting to my intelligence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? We know what we know & nothing else (neither more, nor less). It is impossible to otherwise know what we know (as God is supposed to do). If God knows more (or less) than us, then God doesn't know what we know. God knows something different. If God doesn't know what we know, then God isn't God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Fair enough' date=' but I find the notion of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence to be insulting to my intelligence[/quote'] ...how do you feel about unicorns and quantum entanglement, in that case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted September 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Now, I kinda want to be a Cleric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? ...how do you feel about unicorns and quantum entanglement' date=' in that case?[/quote']Agnostic! The real question should be, what manner of religions may exist in a science fiction setting and how do they affect the story. Let's suppose we have as the predominant religious belief in a work of fiction is Ethical Monotheism and their tenets are The Seven Noahide Laws. That's it, no holy book, no regular meeting day, no unifying symbol. When presented with Pascals Wager they denounce it as "sucking up" which is a most unethical thing to do! Such a religion could in fact be a lot of fun in a story, particularly if it was opposed to a some manner of apocalypse cult that believed that all manner of behavior is permissible given that they've received a direct revelation that the Universe is Going to End in Fire soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? So you have the power to see all things that not can but WILL happen. Do you have the power to change your mind? If no then you are not Omnipotent. If you have the power to do anything you please exactly when it pleases you then you will not be able to know ahead of time what is going to happen next' date=' much less for all eternity. If you knew that doing this will cause that which you'd need to correct then the correction is a limiting factor[/quote'] OR having the Omniscience to know the full consequences of His actions and inactions, He ran all the simulations, all of them, then made the free-will choice to start the universe in such a way as to lead to what He has determined is the Best of All Possible Worlds. Lighten up, we are talking fiction here. And not only fiction, a Jim Carrey movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Soldier Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? OR having the Omniscience to know the full consequences of His actions and inactions, He ran all the simulations, all of them, then made the free-will choice to start the universe in such a way as to lead to what He has determined is the Best of All Possible Worlds. Lighten up, we are talking fiction here. And not only fiction, a Jim Carrey movie. I must admit that I've never been able to make it all the way through a Jim Carey movie without wandering off to find something more interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Carman Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? We know what we know & nothing else (neither more, nor less). It is impossible to otherwise know what we know (as God is supposed to do). If God knows more (or less) than us, then God doesn't know what we know. God knows something different. If God doesn't know what we know, then God isn't God. I suspect that this also is a logical fallacy, or just playing games with word definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? ...and we know what Jesus said the the Fallacies [boom-tish] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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