Alcamtar Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I think what Ragitsu meant was that there are "weak" believers who only say "there must be a god"' date=' because "science can't explain X" (yet).[/quote'] Possibly, but I've never known any such. That's an atheistic supposition that drives believers crazy, just like the reverse supposition ("atheists reject the clear evidence of a god because they don't want to believe in a god") drives atheists crazy. Both suppositions falsely assume the "other" is like oneself and reasons the same way. But they are apples and oranges, I think for the most part they cannot understand each others' reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Going to war has nothing to do with it. Opressing people with Religion/Tradition/Pseudo-Religious "Higher cause" as justification is what we are takling about. You just contradicted yourself, since going to war has everything to do with it. War is one of the oldest tools of oppression. However, all I was really saying was that just because a religion advocates non-violence or whathaveyou, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so when believers get involved. This was to address the authority/Authority religion issue that was raised, and I feel, resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Ironically, a SF religion is inherently an irreligious secular parody of religion that has nothing to do with science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Greek - they kinda made their gods to make their deeds the acceptable norm. Their gods and the roman ones (who copied them practicall 1:1), are the only gods I know of who are examples on adultry and homosexuality. If you are actively looking for other examples, check Egyptian and Sumero-Babylonian. Lucius Alexander Just don't look at the palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? There's rather a long list of pantheons of deities who engaged in scandalous behavior. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Norse, Sumerian, Chinese(Monkey King ring a bell?), Japanese, Aztec, etc. Keep in mind that mythmakers not only want to explain things, they want to tell entertaining stories. If the gods are perfect in every way, why is the world imperfect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Like Founding Fatherism hasn't risen to a religion at times. Indeed. We even have nine high priests who regularly hold seances to determine the will of The Founding Fathers. On the topic: How does the rest of the group feel about the Traveller world generation system that weighted religiously dominated systems as repressive hell holes, and technocracies as bastions of freedom and light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Religious regimes have had a nasty tendency to be unpleasent in the extreme - I can think of a few counterexamples, but only a few. So I'm okay with that aspect. On the other hand, Technocracies have spanned the gamut, with no weighting towards good or bad that I can see - not, to be fair, that technocratic regimes have been all that common. So I'd say that weighting was more the developers' wishful thinking than evidentiary supported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Indeed. We even have nine high priests who regularly hold seances to determine the will of The Founding Fathers. On the topic: How does the rest of the group feel about the Traveller world generation system that weighted religiously dominated systems as repressive hell holes, and technocracies as bastions of freedom and light? I guess this is based on the perception of the "Dark Ages" and goes through various other gamign systems (just take a look a Sid Meiers Civilisation series and Alpha centauri where Fundamentalists always where bad researchers). There is some tendency for Fundamentalists regimes to be highly regulated and highly conservative. I think that often Fundamentalism has simialarities to a police state with the ruling "believing" party trying to get everyone and his dog to get to heaven, even if it kills them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Greek - they kinda made their gods to make their deeds the acceptable norm. Their gods and the roman ones (who copied them practicall 1:1)' date=' are the only gods I know of who are examples on adultry and homosexuality.[/quote'] If you are actively looking for other examples, check Egyptian and Sumero-Babylonian. Lucius Alexander Just don't look at the palindromedary And Hindu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Religious regimes have had a nasty tendency to be unpleasent in the extreme - I can think of a few counterexamples' date=' but only a few. So I'm okay with that aspect. On the other hand, Technocracies have spanned the gamut, with no weighting towards good or bad that I can see - not, to be fair, that technocratic regimes have been all that common. So I'd say that weighting was more the developers' wishful thinking than evidentiary supported.[/quote'] Insufficient sampling. Religious regimes have had the entire history of human civilization to prove they are, as human institutions, possessed of humanity's flaws. Technocratic regimes just need more time to prove they too, as human institutions, possess humanity's flaws. Its also includes a gross generalization. Every religion is different and I suspect, were you to do a detailed and in depth study, they too would show a great deal of variance in whether they tipped the scales towards general benevolence and welfare - or are detrimental to the human condition (and spirit). It also assumes an argument ad homimen (which includes appeals to popular prejudices). In this case: that religion, which is merely one form of philosophy, has a uniquely saprogenic effect compared to other forms of philosophies, or ideologies. In my experience human belief, fervor, and destructive faith is in no way unique to religion. Numerous economic, political, and purely political ideologies have led leaders (and their followers) to implement abominable regimes. Indeed, how many of the great speculative dystopias focus on political, economic, or secular philosophical systems of thought that produce results wholly destructive to the human animal and spirit? Religion has no monopoly on ideologically idiotic implementation of belief on a social or governmental level. I doubt, when the chips are cashed in, it will even have a controlling interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravor Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Personally I believe that it's also showmanship that plays towards the audience, most gamers that I know tend to shy away from religion in general, but in reality the "athiest" nations of history have been at least every bit as bloody as anything religion has inspired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Somebody rep Vondy for saying the stuff I'd like to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Somebody rep Vondy for saying the stuff I'd like to. When he would write something I can understand without having to research half the words he uses, I think about it. Perhaps we need to properly name what we mean: I ususally spooke of practiced fundamentalism, the same way I spoke of practiced communism. Every possible goverment form could in theory be the prefect one. Democracy, Communism, Fundamentalism. The problem is: Humans are stupid. Ususally to stupid to get the government working the way it is envisioned. Practiced Democracy tends a little bit less to be opressive, simply because the Ruling party isn't fixed. But inpropper application (like in Russia, when one controlls the media) can lead to a pseudo-Democracy that's actually just a practiced "one-party-state". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I also suspect that the religion's attitude towards the use of violence has an impact on whether it might become an oppressive force in a society. I don't particularly think Quakers, Bahai, or Unitarians are terribly threatening in this regard, just to name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I also suspect that the religion's attitude towards the use of violence has an impact on whether it might become an oppressive force in a society. I don't particularly think Quakers' date=' Bahai, or Unitarians are terribly threatening in this regard, just to name a few.[/quote'] Only when religion means "interpretation of the holy text's at any given time by any large neough group". The currently common interpreatations of the bible is basically "be nice to each other". But it is the very same religion who spawned the Inquisition, was the force/legitimation behind the crusades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) and the persecution of every group not close enough to the mainstream religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#History). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? On the topic: How does the rest of the group feel about the Traveller world generation system that weighted religiously dominated systems as repressive hell holes' date=' and technocracies as bastions of freedom and light?[/quote'] I like it, but then, I'm a tech-loving atheist. On a more serious note, I think it was made that way in order to represent the books Traveler was based upon. I can't think of any scifi from the 1950-70s that showed religious governments in a good light. I'm sure there were some, but I can't remember any. Showing techs as enlightened and doing the best for humanity was rather common though - science had a better reputation then than it does now, imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I also suspect that the religion's attitude towards the use of violence has an impact on whether it might become an oppressive force in a society. I don't particularly think Quakers' date=' Bahai, or Unitarians are terribly threatening in this regard, just to name a few. [emphasis added'] Richard Milhous Nixon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Carman Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Only when religion means "interpretation of the holy text's at any given time by any large neough group". The currently common interpreatations of the bible is basically "be nice to each other". But it is the very same religion who spawned the Inquisition, was the force/legitimation behind the crusades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) and the persecution of every group not close enough to the mainstream religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#History). Let's not start howling too much about the evils of the crusades (of which there was plenty) as the Muslims do. The latter are quite loath to acknowledge that the crusades were at least partly in response to 5 or 6 centuries of consistent Islamic aggression, overrunning once-largely Christian lands in the Middle East and North Africa, and making significant inroads into Europe before they were finally stopped and kicked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Richard Milhous Nixon Can you say "outlier", boys and girls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted October 7, 2011 Report Share Posted October 7, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Can you say "outlier"' date=' boys and girls?[/quote'] Not really. Every religion and government we know of has had one thing in common, they were practiced by human beings. My point is that there is nothing so good, so beautiful, so perfect in its simplicity that humans can't screw it up. Yes, I did take my meds today, why do you ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Miles Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Richard Milhous Nixon Nixon was not a practicing Quaker. He pretty much was a Quaker in name only. I was raised as a Quaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Nixon was not a practicing Quaker. He pretty much was a Quaker in name only. I was raised as a Quaker. so he was a QINO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravor Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Indeed. We even have nine high priests who regularly hold seances to determine the will of The Founding Fathers. On the topic: How does the rest of the group feel about the Traveller world generation system that weighted religiously dominated systems as repressive hell holes, and technocracies as bastions of freedom and light? The "feudal technocracy" government type gets a tech boost as I see it, not because it's so much more progressive but because that's the actual imperial government, giving them more of a connection to interstellar society. I would not incidentally assume that every religiously dominated society is a Traveller theocracy, since after all, every Traveller theocracy has to have maxxed out population, which makes no sense. Thus I see no reason why I couldn't have a religiously based oligarchy, or a democracy where religion is so powerful that it determines the outcome of elections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted October 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Huh. How DOES a Muslim pray in space? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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