What do you think of supervillain teams?

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Wait, wait. Are you suggesting that SOLO supervillains would somehow be less likely to be hunted down by world governments and superteams? That seems illogical to me. If anything, it would tend to suggest that said villains would cluster into groups substantially larger than superhero teams(and bigger than world governments could readily deal with), in order to better protect themselves from such a fate.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what alternative you posit, to be the focus of most adventures for your aforementioned "typical group of 3-4 superhero PCs". A more powerful solo villain? The Agency-of-the-week? Villain-plus-mooks-or-agents? a group of "super-agents"? I suppose any of those could be viable, but seems like it would tend to constrain the type of challenges to be mostly either "fighting lots of mooks/agents" or "fighting a mega-villain or master villain".

 

I'm not sure that organizations with numbers and firepower to be threats to superhero teams would garner less attention then teams of supervillains and, collectively, govornment and law enforcement would be better able to combat them directly given it would human vs human (heavily armed and trained but still).

 

Edit: Running with that idea, I think this might lead to a much more subdued setting than a traditional supers game. Super criminals are few and far between and mostly operate as quietly as possible or in burst of great destruction and violence, rampages driven by passion and/or insanity. You'd have world beaters and they're agents and groups like Viper operating more like organized crime, no uniforms, conventional weapons, trying not to attract superhuman or govornmetal attention. Scenarios might be more investigative. Finding the criminals would be the bulk of the job, battling them less so. Probably more solo heroes too. It could be interesting.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

The difference between VIPER / HYDRA and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that VIPER is a cell-like organization. Governments and superheroes routinely crush bits and pieces of VIPER and the organization continues. This is because VIPER's leaders aren't committing every single act of terrorism and crime that the organization plots in person. When EuroStar launches an attack, EuroStar shows up. When the Supreme Serpent launches an attack, a bunch of third level troopers and, maybe, a member or two of Dragon Branch show up. I think this is a major distinction, but apparently I'm the only one because I have completely failed to articulate this point with any clarity.

 

The difference between Talisman and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that Talisman, presumably, isn't building the Hall of Doom in the middle of Florida, flying around in a Death Star-like airship, or showing up in Madrid trying to wreck the Spanish economy. I just have to think that individual supervillains would be so much less conspicuous, but obviously I can't know that for a fact and some people disagree.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

One other point PamelaIsley made I wanted to address. Supervillain teams, unlike superhero teams, really DON'T have to be "tactically balanced", either by archetype or what have you. You could have an all-brick villain team, an all-EP villain team, nothing but speedsters, mentalists, martial artists, whatever. They also don't have to be "balanced" individually--could have a "glass cannon"(EP with massive EB and thin defenses), a pillow-fisted tank(brick with superhigh defense and a 40 STR), etc. It actually might be more challenging for a group of PCs if they couldn't just take one look and assume they knew everything about the other team.

 

I do tend to agree, partly, with the assertion that if Eurostar was routinely committing atrocities, the world governments and superheroes would be banding together to take them down. However, a 300 point solo supervillain could show up in a town where there are no superheroes in a 500 mile radius, and kill 10,000 people in an hour's time. It's not the aggregation of power of Eurostar that makes them a target of such an effort, it's what they do with the power they wield. Virtually any superhuman or costumed legend could run up a horrific body count in a very short period of time, simply because they're "beyond normal".

But if Eurostar runs around knocking off banks instead, and their body count is rather smallish, is that going to lead to thousands of agents and dozens of heroes trying to hunt them 24/7? Depending on how many other villains there are in the world, I'm guessing the answer is "probably not".

 

How would solo supervillains survive in a world where most superheroes are operating as teams, and where super-agents like PRIMUS and UNTIL(and even VIPER, which often hunts villains too) tend to show up in groups of 5-10 or more? And how would they pull off jobs requiring multiple people to perform(robbing a bank effectively requires a small group--even if the bank guard is no threat to Lady Blue, she can't be everywhere at once(watching the hostages, checking outside for cops, keeping the tellers from pressing the silent alarm, coercing the bank manager to open the vault(or blasting it open), or fly out carrying ten bulky bags of cash, jewelry and other valuables all by herself. It's just not logical or practical, and relying on mooks(who can't fight superheroes, or effectively run away from them) won't work too well, either.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

The difference between VIPER / HYDRA and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that VIPER is a cell-like organization. Governments and superheroes routinely crush bits and pieces of VIPER and the organization continues. This is because VIPER's leaders aren't committing every single act of terrorism and crime that the organization plots in person. When EuroStar launches an attack, EuroStar shows up. When the Supreme Serpent launches an attack, a bunch of third level troopers and, maybe, a member or two of Dragon Branch show up. I think this is a major distinction, but apparently I'm the only one because I have completely failed to articulate this point with any clarity.

 

The difference between Talisman and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that Talisman, presumably, isn't building the Hall of Doom in the middle of Florida, flying around in a Death Star-like airship, or showing up in Madrid trying to wreck the Spanish economy. I just have to think that individual supervillains would be so much less conspicuous, but obviously I can't know that for a fact and some people disagree.

 

Why would individual supervillains put themselves at risk by showing up in any city where a superhero team existed? The odds of being confronted increase dramatically, and the odds of getting caught are pretty high, too. Plus, aren't there going to be a few types of crimes that most villains are incapable of pulling off all by themselves? It would seem like at least ad hoc groupings of mutual convenience would have to happen in a world where (multiple) supercriminals exist.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

One other point PamelaIsley made I wanted to address. Supervillain teams' date=' unlike superhero teams, really DON'T have to be "tactically balanced", either by archetype or what have you. You could have an all-brick villain team, an all-EP villain team, nothing but speedsters, mentalists, martial artists, whatever. They also don't have to be "balanced" individually--could have a "glass cannon"(EP with massive EB and thin defenses), a pillow-fisted tank(brick with superhigh defense and a 40 STR), etc. It actually might be more challenging for a group of PCs if they couldn't just take one look and assume they knew everything about the other team. [/quote']

 

Almost all of the Champions villains teams are tactically balanced. That contributes to their implausibility. A villain team that had a more haphazard mix of powers would be a bit more believable, unless of course you are talking about a DC-style Injustice League, where the power levels run the gamut from a guy dressed in a purple suit to an omnipotent, ring-wearing alien. Either scenario is somewhat silly to me and finding that fine line of believability is difficult -- again, to me.

 

The rest of your post shows we come at this with completely different preconceptions.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Almost all of the Champions villains teams are tactically balanced. That contributes to their implausibility. A villain team that had a more haphazard mix of powers would be a bit more believable, unless of course you are talking about a DC-style Injustice League, where the power levels run the gamut from a guy dressed in a purple suit to an omnipotent, ring-wearing alien. Either scenario is somewhat silly to me and finding that fine line of believability is difficult -- again, to me.

 

The rest of your post shows we come at this with completely different preconceptions.

 

Well, if you could be clear about what your preconceptions are, perhaps we could come to a better understanding, or at least I would know what line of argument may be more persuasive here.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

In a setting where people regularly violate the cube-square law, the law of gravity, the laws of inertia, the laws of thermodynamics, the laws of conservation and pretty much every other law of physics, ... like-minded people gathering together strains believability.

 

Is that what I'm getting?

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Almost all of the Champions villains teams are tactically balanced. That contributes to their implausibility. A villain team that had a more haphazard mix of powers would be a bit more believable, unless of course you are talking about a DC-style Injustice League, where the power levels run the gamut from a guy dressed in a purple suit to an omnipotent, ring-wearing alien. Either scenario is somewhat silly to me and finding that fine line of believability is difficult -- again, to me.

 

The rest of your post shows we come at this with completely different preconceptions.

 

The ones that are intentionally created are tactically balanced, if their theme allows. Fiacho recruits carefully for Eurostar. The Ultimates took a look at themselves and went "Aw crap, our only ranged attack is Elmer's glue" so they added Thunderbolt (subbing for the subtracted Plasmoid but anyway.)

 

The Crowns of Krim have nothing in common other than vast power stemming from the same artifact source. GRAB's personalities mesh but their powers only sorta. PSI only has psychics so as much as they might want a brick for the team they are SOL unless they find a tactile telekinetic.

 

The Injustice League makes perfect sense if you look at some of the additions to the roster bringing insight rather than power to the mix. And if your base can fly, why not hide it in a swamp?

[csyphrett]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

It's GM-intensive setting the stage, because you have to describe every nook and cranny to make it work, but it's extremely satisfying for one PC to take on a team. The player gets a target rich environment and even if they happen to lose they get to console themselves with "It took 10 of you to take me."

 

I can't imagine not using teams as a supers GM. I mean, no VIPER Squads? No UNTIL or special forces? No mirror universe villain group of the PCs?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have used teams in various campaigns, a couple more than once. It's just in the NSU mail game that I am running, I don't have a logical reason to bring on a team.

 

At one point, two PCs took on thirty villains and took them all down in the campaign. I have had a game where only one PC was left against about twenty villains and crushed them one after the other.

 

I dont have a thing against a team, I'm just at a point where everyone took off in different directions on me and are at different points on the timeline and I can't seem to get them back together.

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Maybe villains would have a loose unground network rather than "teams". Groups come together, arrange to commit a crime, divy up and drift apart again. It would be largely informal, perhaps internet based and essentially a cell structure except even more loosely organized like illegal sex rings and some crews in the real world.

 

Edit: Actually, even a world of with supervillain teams this kind of set might exist.

 

A thing like this exists. It's called a flashmob. One guy calls all of his friends to show up to commit a robbery, then they split in different directions.

CES

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have used teams in various campaigns, a couple more than once. It's just in the NSU mail game that I am running, I don't have a logical reason to bring on a team.

 

At one point, two PCs took on thirty villains and took them all down in the campaign. I have had a game where only one PC was left against about twenty villains and crushed them one after the other.

 

I dont have a thing against a team, I'm just at a point where everyone took off in different directions on me and are at different points on the timeline and I can't seem to get them back together.

CES

 

Not to derail the thread but I wanted to say I can sympathize. Sometimes getting PCs together is like herding kittens...nuclear powered kittens at that.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

A thing like this exists. It's called a flashmob. One guy calls all of his friends to show up to commit a robbery, then they split in different directions.

CES

 

Yep, that's partially where the idea came from. And how certain kinds of traffickers work or even revolutionary undergrounds. In a worldl with the same sorts of social media and commuication as ours (or even better, perhaps some psionic set up some sort of telepathic network or something along those lines) it might be a viable alternative to permanent teams if that idea doesn't appeal.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

In my games, I assume supervillains tend to lay low when not active, sticking to their secret ids and have their facilities concealed or at least low key. There are no "Halls of Doom" or they are at least mobile and/or have sufficiently advanced stealth and security. Really in a time of drone strikes and breif case sized bombs that can blow up a block you have to wonder why superheroes make their bases public, aside from symbolism. A half dozen or less individuals with access to advanced technology and superpowers can fade pretty quickly. It's not that law enforcement doesn't try to find them, they do constantly but its hard, at least as hard as tracking down more mundane criminals. When teams strike its quick and effective. Their superior mobility allows them to get in and get out quickly. Large organizations require logistics and financing. One reason groups like Al-Queda and other terrorist groups can be predicted is that intelligence is useful, they have to move money, get supplies, etc.

 

 

A small group of powered individuals doesn't have those weaknesses. Fictional mega groups like Viper would have similar issues (and perhaps greater ones. They have small armies of operatives that are basically troops, distinctive uniforms, unique vehicles and weapons. They need to build, staff and maintain fairly extensive facilitates to house and maintain these resources. Plants, informants and information leaks would be a major issue as well as just leaving paper and electronic trails for billions of dollars in high tech, at least somewhat noteworthy equipment. In my games, groups like Viper rely much more on conventional tech and mercenaries (super and otherwise) generally. The flashier stuff is reserved for special operations that are to some extent, intended to eventually be found out or destroyed. It gives law enforcement and heroes an obvious target and a false sense of victory as a cover for the "real" business.

 

 

Its more difficult to predict, for example, when the Ultimates are going to do next. Often military level force is needed to deal with them and that takes time to deploy from centralized locations too. The local cops might arrive faster but generally can't effectively deal with several superhumans particularly coordinated ones. That leaves the best counter to super vilain teams superhero teams. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

The difference between Talisman and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that Talisman' date=' presumably, isn't building the Hall of Doom in the middle of Florida, flying around in a Death Star-like airship, or showing up in Madrid trying to wreck the Spanish economy. I just have to think that individual supervillains would be so much less conspicuous, but obviously I can't know that for a fact and some people disagree.[/quote']

 

Um... why do you assume super villain teams have to be so conspicuous? Why can't they have their headquarters in a discreet warehouse or other innocuous edifice, with concealed underground or underwater access? Why can't they travel in normal-looking unmarked vehicles, the way real criminal crews do? Conversely, since some teams include technical geniuses, why can't they have beyond-the-cutting-edge stealth technology, cloaking systems, tracking jammers, etc. for any vehicles or bases they may use? This is comic-books, after all.

 

'The Hall of Doom" is an extreme example of a very Silver Age, Super Friends-ish convention which, frankly, mainstream comics haven't indulged in in decades, except for satirical purposes. By continuing to emphasize this and "Death Star-like airships," you give the impression of holding to a rather narrow and dated conception of how comic-book villain teams operate.

 

I can certainly see one person in a colorful costume with flashy powers being less conspicuous than forty such persons. But is one really so much less conspicuous than, say, six?

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Um... why do you assume super villain teams have to be so conspicuous? Why can't they have their headquarters in a discreet warehouse or other innocuous edifice, with concealed underground or underwater access? Why can't they travel in normal-looking unmarked vehicles, the way real criminal crews do? Conversely, since some teams include technical geniuses, why can't they have beyond-the-cutting-edge stealth technology, cloaking systems, tracking jammers, etc. for any vehicles or bases they may use? This is comic-books, after all.

 

'The Hall of Doom" is an extreme example of a very Silver Age, Super Friends-ish convention which, frankly, mainstream comics haven't indulged in in decades, except for satirical purposes. By continuing to emphasize this and "Death Star-like airships," you give the impression of holding to a rather narrow and dated conception of how comic-book villain teams operate.

 

EuroStar goes out of its way to be conspicuous. It commits acts of terrorism designed to show the world how powerful it is and convince Europe to unify under its leadership. It is the villain team that is furthest out on my scale of implausibility (leaving aside DC's Injustice League incarnations).

 

The Hall of Doom appeared in the rebooted Justice League, in a non-satirical way, in 2008. I didn't realize that was a very long time ago, far in the mists of the Silver Age.

 

The War Machine flies around in a Death Star-like airship.

 

No Champions or DC villain team that I am aware of has headquarters matching your description or behaves in the way you describe. You are positing a realistic method of handling villain teams; but I've never seen them used in this way by source material.

[Clonus]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

EuroStar goes out of its way to be conspicuous. It commits acts of terrorism designed to show the world how powerful it is and convince Europe to unify under its leadership. It is the villain team that is furthest out on my scale of implausibility (leaving aside DC's Injustice League incarnations).

 

The Hall of Doom appeared in the rebooted Justice League, in a non-satirical way, in 2008. I didn't realize that was a very long time ago, far in the mists of the Silver Age.

 

The War Machine flies around in a Death Star-like airship.

 

No Champions or DC villain team that I am aware of has headquarters matching your description or behaves in the way you describe. You are positing a realistic method of handling villain teams; but I've never seen them used in this way by source material.

 

Zodiac had a headquarters in a cloaked alien spaceship accessible only by teleporter.

The Brotherhood of Evil operated off of a salvaged U-Boat

The Secret Society of Supervillains initially operated out of an underground complex underneath a superficially mundane office building.

The Female Furies just live on an alien world where they aren't villains at all.

The Injustice Society's headquarters was just never shown in exterior view, and never looked impressive on the inside. Just a conference table with no frills.

Every H.I.V.E. HQ has been an underground complex.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I wonder who is granting the zoning permits for all this underground construction?

 

I'm not making my point very well at all, because a lot of examples being used to show I'm wrong, I think prove my case that supervillain teams operate in a very unlikely manner. So I'm just out on a different limb I guess.

[Clonus]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I wonder who is granting the zoning permits for all this underground construction?

 

One of the nice things about having super powers is that powers that would be useful for digging are actually extremely common. Super strength and energy blasts mean never having to use conspicuous heavy equipment.

 

 

 

I'm not making my point very well at all, because a lot of examples being used to show I'm wrong, I think prove my case that supervillain teams operate in a very unlikely manner. So I'm just out on a different limb I guess.

 

Well here's my point. Your case is really that supervillains operate in a very unlikely manner. Yes. Yes they frequently do. It doesn't get more unlikely when a few of them band together.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I wonder who is granting the zoning permits for all this underground construction?

 

Because... you can't count on criminal groups to ignore zoning regulations, or file plans for construction A but actually build construction B and pay off bureaucrats to look the other way? Throw certain powers in the mix (e.g. mind control or mental illusions) and I think it's almost a slam-dunk that all the official paperwork could appear to be on the up-and-up.

 

I can see your points in some respects. (I've never liked that whole Hall of Doom thing myself.) And I've used certain genre conventions (like a VIPER dirigible aircraft carrier) with full understanding that I was pushing the limits of disbelief beyond the reasonable, but my players are willing to accept that sort of thing on occasion without hassling me too much.

[Clonus]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Because... you can't count on criminal groups to ignore zoning regulations' date=' or file plans for construction A but actually build construction B and pay off bureaucrats to look the other way? Throw certain powers in the mix (e.g. mind control or mental illusions) and I think it's almost a slam-dunk that all the official paperwork could appear to be on the up-and-up..[/quote']

 

Actually there an awful lot of pre-built underground installations from one government or another that are abandoned and just begging to be repurposed by the supervillains if they ever come along.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I think one thing that has to be kept in mind about comic book worlds is that while they are superficially similar to our own they are operating under very different rules. They have different histories and have developed in different ways. We can make comparisons and extropolate from how things work in our world (or how we understand them to work) but some things are going to be different due to differences in our world and the fictional and, yes, do to convention and nessescity to tell comic book stories. You can't fit everything in a comic book world into the real world because they don't take place in the real world and there are things in comic book worlds that simply have no precedent in the real world like true superhumans.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

After thinking about Eurostar a bit I find myself agreeing with what another (Clonus, I believe) mentioned earlier in this thread. That group seems like it should eventually grow into an organization unto itself or at least develop a network of resources and covert operatives. Their agenda is pretty grand and will take more than personal power to acheive, IMO, even as powerful as they are.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Wait, the Hall of Doom appeared in DC comics in 2008?

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Yes, in the Injustice League Unlimited saga in the relaunched Justice League.

 

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Hall_of_Doom

[csyphrett]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

It says new earth and super friends on the tag. The description also says hidden base which means only the members knew where it was. Are the villains not supposed to have a hidden base to go with their non-team?

CES