What do you think of supervillain teams?

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

For my games, I try to create some sort of connection or link to pull the teams together: a shared idelogy or "morality", ties of some sort, really compataible personalities, etc, even just a history of succeeding more together than when they are apart. I try to use more than one to give the group coherence beyond "I have 5 PCs so I need roughly 5 antagonists." I can't say I'm perfect and someone might think my groups look cheesy or ad hoc but I try.

[Duane From RI]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

The best we can do is try to tell a compelling story. If a villain group seems a bit ad hoc but it leads to a great story I for one would love it.

In the recent D&D game I've been playing the GM had us come out of a major plot arc and end up in the basement of a mansion of evil mercenaries. The fact that the mercenaries were there made perfect sense. The collection of monsters gathered by this mercenary band in preparation for their attempt to take over the city made perfect sense. I hated the whole episode because it didn't have any value to the main plot of the characters (the fate of the city is not our problem) and I wasn't compelled.

I wouldn't be compelled by "bank robbers of the week", even if the villain group had a well thought out background. It is more compelling to have pieces of that background integrate into the story. Consider Requiem and Frost. As leaders of a "crime spree" team they aren't much of a story. Suddenly bring Genocide into the picture and now maybe the non-mutant villains have to make decisions, the heroes have to decide whether to apprehend them and put them in harms way, mutant heroes are now going to make choices, and other more compelling stories.

Another genre convention - common to every genre in my opinion - is that the sh*t doesn't hit the fan until the main characters are part of the story. A villain team could be well established before the they met the campaigns heroes - maybe a well oiled machine. But now that the heroes are on stage something goes wrong for the villain team that moves the story beyond the "stop the crime spree". It doesn't matter that a well oiled machine doesn't make sense because at the moment the heroes meet them they aren't a well oiled machine. This concept works well with uber-villains, alien invaders, demonic invaders, etc.. The wheels didn't come off the machine until the heroes were there to take advantage of it. It's all part of the "weirdness magnet" convention that cuts through so many genres.

[Clonus]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

That being said, were I to use Eurostar I would make it one of their priorities to gather followers and non powered agents. Given their agenda, to unite Europe under their junta, to carry it out requires an intelligence network and a force of goons for post-takeover enforcement.

[John T]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Recently in another a member mentioned that they didn't like the concept of supervillain teams' date=' finding the idea of a long term steady team of villains silly. I hadn't heard this opinion before but that doesn't mean it's not a common one. So what do you think of Supervillain teams in general?[/quote']

Saying that the idea of a long term steady team of villains is silly is, IMO, a bit like saying the idea of the Mafia, Yakuza, Triads, etc are silly. I'm not certain of the logic behind the situation you cite, but I've run into some folks who equate "evil" with "unable to cooperate and organize".

 

Obviously, nothing could be farther from the truth.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Saying that the idea of a long term steady team of villains is silly is, IMO, a bit like saying the idea of the Mafia, Yakuza, Triads, etc are silly. I'm not certain of the logic behind the situation you cite, but I've run into some folks who equate "evil" with "unable to cooperate and organize".

 

Obviously, nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

Supervillain teams are very different from large, faceless criminal empires that operate in the shadows and, for the most part, have cell-like organizations. I was unable to get this point across earlier, but teams like EuroStar (in particular) do not operate from the shadows, are far from faceless, and definitely do not have a cell-like organization. They are a small group that must personally commit every act of terrorism or crime that they plot. They are also an incredible concentration of power that is insanely dangerous. The Ultimates, Destroyers, and Sunburst are similar, and also bear no resemblance to the mafia or other underworld groups (or even, in my opinion, something like VIPER, DEMON, HYDRA, or Dr. Destroyer's original organization).

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Truth be told, it never occured to me that supervillains *wouldn't* form teams. Given the arguments people here have made, pro and con, I can see the merits of both sides. But from a purely practical side, I prefer pitting a group of heroes against a group of similarly-powerful villains, rather than against a much-more-powerful master villain with or without a group of agent-level grunts at his disposal. Also from a purely practical side, I don't like a constantly-changing roster of members in each team, so my teams tend to stay fairly static membership-wise.

 

My supervillain teams tend to be like-minded individuals who see the benefits of greater numbers. After all, if the heroes are banding together, a lone supervillain doesn't stand much of a chance unless he's very powerful. And quite often, individual supervillains in a team have the viewpoint of someone running from a bear -- "I don't have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than you." IOW, a few of them escape while the heroes are busy capturing their teammates. Since the free supervillains often try freeing their teammates from incarceration through various means, the captured ones don't hold as much of a grudge against their non-captured teammates. Perhaps not too realistic -- but let's face it, we're talking about people who can walk on air and generate blasts of flame from their bare hands. Realism is already taking a fairly decent hit here.

 

As to power levels, I don't know that comparisons to gangs or terrorist groups are that out of line. Sure, supervillains are very powerful, but that's as compared to normal people. One could say that a lone armed gang member or terrorist is much more "powerful" than your average (typically unarmed or, occasionally, lightly-armed) civilian, and is somewhat comparably "powerful" to the police officer or soldier opposing him. All you're really doing is increasing the power level of both sides (gang member and cop, or terrorist and soldier) to supervillain / superhero levels.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Teams in gaming can seem stupid. There are hundreds of thousands of gaming groups out there with a Paladin and an Assassin as part of the same team, characters with nothing in common and every reason to be antagonistic toward each other, adventuring together solely because their players are sitting at the same table. Many GMs use villain teams as some singleminded hydra, every "head" slavishly loyal, and completely abandon the fun that can be had when the "heads" interact. Teams in genre can seem stupid as well as it has been the fashion to make teams of loners for some time now, books that are Kewl! but only run about 36 issues.

 

Eurostar has been mentioned upthread, and is both a good and bad example of a team in action. We have witnessed Eurostar both add and lose members. We have seen their methods have to evolve to accommodate the leaps in technology and finance that have occured since their introduction. I mean the old roster might knock over a bank but they aren't crashing any economies anymore until they add a hacker to the roster. They used to be the go-to team for an efficient, no-holds-barred foe but now they seem Not Iron Age edgy enough, almost quaint.

 

In my old campaign we often did side campaigns to keep things fresh and one of those side campaigns was a Villains campaign. They were a team with all the many reasons for a team to form: the Leader had manpower-intensive goals, the Speedster wanted to have fun and didn't care who got hurt, the Brick was Viking-minded and intentionally recruited to fill a hole, the Demon had absolutely no regard for life and was happy to get the chance to sow chaos, the Swordswoman was sworn to serve even a cruel master. We had some fun and the game eventually subsided as we resumed our main campaign. In one of the storylines, the hero team followed Durak to a Eurostar meeting and got real concerned when some of the descriptions of who was there sounded suspiciously like some of their villains! Since the villains were spawned by a change-of-pace campaign often the villain was the exact antithesis of the same player's heroic character. They were playing that night with a mixture of pride and dread, and some people sheepishly cheered when their villains got in a good one against their own teammates. Good times.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Supervillain teams have many of the same advantages over normal criminals that superheroes have over conventional law enforcement: access to exceptional powers, mobility and a type anonomity. Yes, they were brightly colored costumes but they can ususally take them off and blend into the normals. Its much easier for a group 4-6 individuals to conceal themselves than say, upwards of 50 people, the facilities needed to house, feed and provide for them as well maintain any vehicles and other equipment they'd need. If the Ultimates or some other groups needs to law low for awehile they can effectively vanish for quite awhiile Something that would much more difficult with a large organization.

 

I honestly feel that, given the assumptions and set up in most comic worlds, teams are superhuman criminals are a logical development. The particulars would vary but they do for superhero teams as well. Of course, mileages may vary and arguing "realism" with the comic genre is always going to be a little tricky and always subjective.

[Nothere]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Well we'll start off Meta.

 

It's a role playing game with generally 4-6 players. You tend to need Supervillian teams, As The heroes vs 1200 agents, or One overpowered villian and some red shirts while doable (Get you mind out of the gutter) can like anything else get stale.

 

Now for in game.

 

To address the various objections. I'm gonna start were everyone else has passed with Osama.

 

Most wanted man in the world, massive bounty, dozens of people knew where he was, but nobody talked. Now one of the complaints that a group like Eurostar dosen't make sence is being a limited number of people Until or Nato would just focus on anihalating them. Which sounds reasonable except for a few things. Viper, Demon, Gravitar, Dr. Destroyer, Warlord, Holocaust. Sure after Eurostar kidnaps the third group of diplomats goverments will concentrate a bit more on them, but nody wants to be the guy who loses Belgiu, because they were so focused on one terrorist.

 

And then theirs Fiacho. The man is a supergenius with a 25 pre and a persuaion of 14. The man dosen't just take a taxi somewhere, do a terrorist act, hop back in, and asked to be dropped off. He has an escape plan, and a place to hide out. True he dosen't have a network of reigious followers to cover for him. But he can convince someone to let him hide out at their mansion till the heat is off.

 

Another major complaint was that a group like Grab wouldn't work together because they try to stay under the radar. I double checked the description, and unless thats something from 6th ed it's wrong. Their thieves who dress up in costume. It's like saying bank robbers who wear disguises can't work together. And as we all know in real life they do.

 

Of course villian team stability has been questioned. And that one I kinda have to grant. Espically like with the Sinister Six. or Superman revenge squad. He keeps beating me when I work alone, so I'll get a few of his other enimies together and crush him. Well that didn't work, I might as well go back to trying it alone. Or the silly nature of the groups like the Injustice Gang. With their wildly differgent levels of power. Though why that wouldn't work confuses Batman and Superman greatly.

 

So to wrap up, I don't really see a problem with superteams. The villians aren't going to say oh no I'm standing next to another costumed villian. I'm sure to be caught now. Teamwork means you can pull off things you couldn't alone. And then there's the question of unity. There's no reason their can't be a tight knit group of people dedicate to one goal. Or a ragtag group of people who wouldn't be caught dead together and won't again cause their gonna kill the others after they pull off this one big crime. It happens in real life all the time.

[John T]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Supervillain teams are very different from large' date=' faceless criminal empires that operate in the shadows and, for the most part, have cell-like organizations. I was unable to get this point across earlier, but teams like EuroStar (in particular) do not operate from the shadows, are far from faceless, and definitely do not have a cell-like organization. They are a small group that must personally commit every act of terrorism or crime that they plot. They are also an incredible concentration of power that is insanely dangerous. The Ultimates, Destroyers, and Sunburst are similar, and also bear no resemblance to the mafia or other underworld groups (or even, in my opinion, something like VIPER, DEMON, HYDRA, or Dr. Destroyer's original organization).[/quote']

The point being that evil people do not inherently have to be fractious back-stabbers with no sense of the larger picture. Nothing prevents them from realizing that, in order to remain free in a world filled with hero TEAMS, they would be smart to form similar organizations. In general, a lone villain cannot stand up to an entire team of heroes.

 

Obviously, YMMV. Just don't grouse about it when your GM makes villain teams.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I completely agree that supervillain teams in Champions are a gaming convention to provide a challenge to a typical group of 3-4 players using "normal" superheroes. The fact they feel so gamey is one reason (along with my view of their implausibility in anything resembling the world posited by Champions, DC, and Marvel) I dislike them.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Well, since we've had some people examining the situation in detail and concluding "plausible," and others examining the same situation in detail and concluding "implausible," I believe the debate has reached a logical impasse.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Well' date=' since we've had some people examining the situation in detail and concluding "plausible," and others examining the same situation in detail and concluding "implausible," I believe the debate has reached a logical impasse. [/quote']

 

I find that highly implausible!

 

[sorry, couldn't resist]

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I completely agree that supervillain teams in Champions are a gaming convention to provide a challenge to a typical group of 3-4 players using "normal" superheroes. The fact they feel so gamey is one reason (along with my view of their implausibility in anything resembling the world posited by Champions' date=' DC, and Marvel) I dislike them.[/quote']

 

Do superhero teams feel "gamey" to you as well? If not, what are the logical reasons why superheroes would band together? Wouldn't some of those reasons also apply to criminally-inclined superhumans as well?

 

I suppose one way to think about this is, what sort of crimes are supervillains likely to want to commit? Do some of these crimes require more than one person to pull off successfully? Are there potential benefits to having superpowered accomplices?

 

Money/greed, revenge, power, thrillseeking, destruction, ideology and insanity are the "big 7" villain motivations in my view. You can then consider a partial list of possible crimes:

1. assault/property destruction/murder(for hire, for revenge, or for some other goal)

2. robbery/theft/burglary

3. "protection" rackets

4. kidnapping/human trafficking(you could probably fit in weird mind control schemes here too)

5. subversion/overthrow of government

6. genocide/mass destruction

7. miscellaneous--smuggling, fraud/trickery, harrassment/mayhem, etc.

 

Once you've got a set of motivations, and a set of possible crimes, you can then think about how individual villains might organize themselves--solo?, duo?, trio?, team?, join/form an org?

 

In the real world, we have:

1. gangs(street and otherwise)

2. "crews"(groups smaller than gangs which work together, usually at a specialty--car theft, bank robbery, con games, smuggling, whatever)

3. organized crime "families"--Triad, Yakuza, Mafia, etc.

4. terrorist groups

5. groups with the potential to become criminal/engage in criminal activities--fringe political parties, shady corporations, private military corporations, etc.

[Martin2]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

You could say why do super hero groups get together?

 

The same reason as the villains as it gets a team together to do what a solo super can not.

 

If villain groups are silly then hero groups must also be silly.

 

We all have gaming groups with mutiple heroes in them that would probably break up after the first failure due to clashes of personality. But they have a team spirit of "we will work together as this is our gaming night and fighting amongst ourselves will not work or be fun" .

 

So maybe villain teams have a similar thought (or more likely if I do not work with this bunch of crazy mad men the hero team will get me a lot easier).

 

Teams work as the team (should) be stronger then its individual parts. Thats why teams work. The problem is that hero teams work better as the GM (or comic writer)have to make it work better or he will lose his players (readers).

 

I am sure in games where the players are villains the super hero teams will also be beaten in a similar fashion and they will also have team shuffles.

 

The thing I do not get is public bases for super hero groups.

 

Fair enough they are well defended but it they can not take on a Face book call to "Trash the Champions base this Friday?". And even the secret bases are know to exist by at least 5 villains, but they decide to keep it secret so they can build up another team and have the fame of destroying it themselves!

 

So the heroes pick secret bases and so do the villains.

 

Do we have any comments from anyone runing Villain team Hero games?

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Well' date=' since we've had some people examining the situation in detail and concluding "plausible," and others examining the same situation in detail and concluding "implausible," I believe the debate has reached a logical impasse. [/quote']

 

Man, who often to internet debate fail to change any one's opinion?

 

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

Joking aside, this thread has been useful. I didn't know, hadn't considered even, that someone might have find the idea of villain teams unpalatable. Now I do and I'm aware of some of the issues can that acerbate the issue and can work to mitigate them in the future though I don't plan on abandoning the idea of super villain teams. Most of them are ideas that make for good teams in general (mainly a coherent reason to be together) so would improve my characters in general. So though no one seems to have changed their minds I'd call it a worthwhile discussion.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

What would the viable alternatives to supervillain teams be? Alternatively, for those who find the idea implausible or gamey, what might make them more plausible or less gamey?

[csyphrett]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I have used Villain teams in the past, but in the current game, all of the player characters have scattered so there's no point in unleashing a whole team against one player.

CES

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

What would the viable alternatives to supervillain teams be? Alternatively' date=' for those who find the idea implausible or gamey, what might make them more plausible or less gamey?[/quote']

 

A quick spritz of Febreeze?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

A quick spritz of Febreeze?

 

"Febreze ... my one weakness! Powers ... fading ..."

"Dude, how Silver Age can you get?"

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

I have used Villain teams in the past, but in the current game, all of the player characters have scattered so there's no point in unleashing a whole team against one player.

CES

 

It's GM-intensive setting the stage, because you have to describe every nook and cranny to make it work, but it's extremely satisfying for one PC to take on a team. The player gets a target rich environment and even if they happen to lose they get to console themselves with "It took 10 of you to take me."

 

I can't imagine not using teams as a supers GM. I mean, no VIPER Squads? No UNTIL or special forces? No mirror universe villain group of the PCs?

[PamelaIsley]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

There's a big difference between special forces, UNTIL, and even VIPER and teams like EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar, which come together once a quarter or so to commit an absurd crime, happen to contain the proper mix between tanks, gadgeteers, blasters, and skilled hand-to-hand combatants, hang out during their offtime playing bridge at the TerrorHallDromeofDoom, and who inexplicably aren't hunted down by world governments and superteams.

[phoenix240]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

What would the viable alternatives to supervillain teams be? Alternatively' date=' for those who find the idea implausible or gamey, what might make them more plausible or less gamey?[/quote']

 

Maybe villains would have a loose unground network rather than "teams". Groups come together, arrange to commit a crime, divy up and drift apart again. It would be largely informal, perhaps internet based and essentially a cell structure except even more loosely organized like illegal sex rings and some crews in the real world.

 

Edit: Actually, even a world of with supervillain teams this kind of set might exist.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams?

 

There's a big difference between special forces' date=' UNTIL, and even VIPER and teams like EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar, which come together once a quarter or so to commit an absurd crime, happen to contain the proper mix between tanks, gadgeteers, blasters, and skilled hand-to-hand combatants, hang out during their offtime playing bridge at the TerrorHallDromeofDoom, and who inexplicably aren't hunted down by world governments and superteams.[/quote']

 

Wait, wait. Are you suggesting that SOLO supervillains would somehow be less likely to be hunted down by world governments and superteams? That seems illogical to me. If anything, it would tend to suggest that said villains would cluster into groups substantially larger than superhero teams(and bigger than world governments could readily deal with), in order to better protect themselves from such a fate.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what alternative you posit, to be the focus of most adventures for your aforementioned "typical group of 3-4 superhero PCs". A more powerful solo villain? The Agency-of-the-week? Villain-plus-mooks-or-agents? a group of "super-agents"? I suppose any of those could be viable, but seems like it would tend to constrain the type of challenges to be mostly either "fighting lots of mooks/agents" or "fighting a mega-villain or master villain".