Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

[Christopher]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Ok I figured out the displacement thing. You would need to displace 5' date='600 meters by swinging the mass around and around for 1 second.[/quote']

Or less meters in fewer time. You need way more than one second (as haymakered maneuver it is 2 seconds at lesat) to build up the speed/take the position.

 

Bigwolfe:

regrding 4) Yes, that is the stated intent of this rule. Give them a chance to make throws like in the comic books (throw the bomb into orbit). I think the "realistic" (it is in quotation marks in the rules!) means "comicbook realistic with some roughly applied physics". It could very well be that Steve long totally ignored gravitation and only went for distance. The same way we totally ignore aerodynamics in normal and "realistic" throws (wich can be big enough to varporize what you throw at certain speeds)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

That's a good point. Escape velocity may not have been considered at all. Anyone know if the math works out distance-wise if it were figured as a regular/horizontal to the ground throw?

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

I don't mind trying to capture the comic book aspects of throwing things into orbit. My problem is whenever someone attaches the word "realistic" and then totally screws the pooch on conservation of energy. My calculations indicate that a 70STR brick could throw a 63g object into orbit - say a large gem or an amulet. That's pretty cool and quite reasonable. My problem with the tables was that a 70 STR brick, something that is quite common in a 14+DC campaign, could throw a man into orbit. I'm sitting there thinking that didn't make sense and now I know it doesn't.

So now, if a player in my campaign own APG, makes a 70STR brick and then tries to uncork "realistic" on me - I have the math to refute the printed rules. They don't sulk or feel like I am GM fiat-ing them.

[Susano]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

So, once again I ask, what would be the estimated minimum STR to hit a pitched baseball into orbit?

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Today's baseball weighs 142g to 149g.

Raw kinetic energy to reach orbit is 9,345,280 joules.

Assuming a bat that can handle this amount of energy, assuming a perfect hit, and assuming perfect transfer of energy (which is probably only possible with a bat made of the densest materials like uranium). Assuming to ignore drag and air resistance.

A person with 78 STR can generate the necessary amount of joules. Since a person with 83STR generates twice as many joules, I'd say a person with 83STR can hit a baseball into orbit even with some inefficiencies.

[Susano]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Today's baseball weighs 142g to 149g.

Raw kinetic energy to reach orbit is 9,345,280 joules.

Assuming a bat that can handle this amount of energy, assuming a perfect hit, and assuming perfect transfer of energy (which is probably only possible with a bat made of the densest materials like uranium). Assuming to ignore drag and air resistance.

A person with 78 STR can generate the necessary amount of joules. Since a person with 83STR generates twice as many joules, I'd say a person with 83STR can hit a baseball into orbit even with some inefficiencies.

 

Wow, well, I guess the character I'm thinking off must have something other than an 83 STR to do what she did.

[gojira]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

That's a good point. Escape velocity may not have been considered at all. Anyone know if the math works out distance-wise if it were figured as a regular/horizontal to the ground throw?

 

This is where I'd go with it. Figure how fast/far you can throw an ordinary object, then translate that into an orbital mechanic. Most supers have speed 4-6, which is a 2 to 3 second phase. So you need to be able to throw an object 22 to 33 km in your phase to reach anything close to escape velocity.

 

QUERY: Escape velocity implies a complete escape from Earth's gravity, yes? You are effectively moving an infinite distance away. Does it matter that most satellites orbit at around 100 miles above the Earth?

 

Besides that point, there's both a horizontal and a vertical component. You need to escape Earth's atmosphere (~100 miles up) or the friction will bring you down quickly, and still have enough horizontal velocity to KEEP ORBITING. Fun fun.

[Christopher]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

I don't mind trying to capture the comic book aspects of throwing things into orbit. My problem is whenever someone attaches the word "realistic" and then totally screws the pooch on conservation of energy.

Looked over it again. With the sole exception of the Rules headline and the table every single time the word realistic is used, it is written in Quotation Marks.

Since we can certainly say that Steve long is not citating, using written speech, a literal title or name I think it is this use:

Quotation marks can also be used to indicate a different meaning of a word or phrase than the one typically associated with it' date=' and are often used to express irony

So realistically this "realistic" means something other than you would normally say is realistic. I think we should petition Steve Long to from now on NEVER again use "realistic" and instead write comicbook realism or something more fitting.

[Susano]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Escafarc]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Please, the cat-girls are starting to lose their hair.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Please' date=' the cat-girls are starting to lose their hair.[/quote']

 

That's fine by my, I like bald...

catgirls.

[Christopher]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

You keep using that word' date=' I don't think it means what you think it means.[/quote']

That does not changes the fact, that the ' "Realistic" throwing Rules ' are anything but realistic.

[Susano]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

That does not changes the fact' date=' that the ' "Realistic" throwing Rules ' are anything but realistic.[/quote']

 

Well, so much for my attempt at levity.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

"Realistic" literally or not, I have players that love to cite published material and get quite sulky if you poo-poo them without having better reason than GM fiat. This exercise has allowed me to determine that a published table is totally bogus, I have determined the more correct formula, and I can even explain how the writer of the tables blew their physics roll.

I thus restore both dramatic sense and common sense. I don't have to fiddle with things like arm movement speed, air resistance, aerodynamics, aim or anything else if it dramatically helps to chuck a 149g baseball into orbit with an 78 to 83 STR. Furthermore since I have properly calcualted the energies involved, common sense indicates that they can give it go.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

I think the tables in the APG, while clearly not realistic, do model most comic-books a lot better the default throwing table, and probably also better than an accurately calculated table would.

 

That said, I see the value in having a "realistic" table that more closely approaches the realistic, so I threw one together in a Excel spreadsheet.

 

It recalculates each of the APG tables with proper formulas, and includes an extra line where you can insert a Lift value in tons and get the derived values. As in the APG, the results of the first table are in kg and the second table is in meters.

 

The second table breaks down a bit for lower strengths and higher weights; for instance, a 40 STR brick supposedly can't lift 10 tons, but he can apparently throw them over a meter. I recommend treating any value of 2 meters or less as being effectively 0.

 

I also included fields where you can modify three constants. "Gravity 1" and "Gravity 2" are both set to 10 m/s^2 by default, matching the value that appears to have been used in the APG; you can change them both to 9.8 or 9.807 if you want "better" calculations. Likewise, changing "Escape Velocity" to 11186 will be more accurate.

 

Or, just for extra fun, you can leave Gravity 1 alone, and just change Gravity 2 and Escape Velocity to match the values for a different planet. That will tell you how far a brick can throw something on Mars, or the Moon. It doesn't take atmospheric differences into account, of course. Here are some values you can use:

 

Moon: 1.6, 2380

Mercury: 3.7, 4250

Venus: 8.9, 10460

Mars: 3.7, 5027

Jupiter: 24.8, 59500

Saturn: 10.4, 35500

Uranus: 8.7, 21300

Neptune: 11.2, 23500

Pluto: .66, 1229

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

BTW: I really want to thank Andrew for chiming in a time or two on this topic. When I went into it I knew that conservation of energy was being violated "to the best of my knowledge". In other words I couldn't be sure. I had to be reminded of some of the other equations for Work (namely work=force times distance) and see them on a page. It took me a long time to realize that if you apply 11,200 m/s^2 for exactly 1 meter, you will cover that meter in far, far less than 1 second. Without Andrew's help I never would have seen it.

Thank you very much.

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Captain America throwing a twelve pound three foot diameter frisbee hard enough to catch a missile in flight.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

He did that in the book' date=' also. Black Tom ended up with half of Jugg's powers and neither one liked it much.[/quote']

 

Actually what happens is he shares the power with Black Tom first. Rogue defeats them by draining them...after he recovers(and all the power reverts back to Juggie), he tosses it into space to keep anyone else from ever having "his" power again.

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

...and then the Super-Skrull finds it.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

As an aside, I think back on the scene in the Capt America movie where he chucks the HYDRA agent from the water onto the dock. Based on my recollection of the height of the dock and where the HYDRA lands, I calculate that Capt America can throw a 12 pound shield at 67mph. Now that seems reasonable speed from most of the comics, but I don't see how you can take a missile unless you have levels with Deflection out the Ying-Yang.

Now in my opinion Capt America has levels with his shield out the Ying-Yang but I'm not sure of that many.

In HERO System, the truth is that Deflection stops bullets as equally as it can stop laser beams as easily as it can stop a throwing knife. So speed of the incoming attack doesn't matter to the Deflection the power. At some point its going to come down to a balance between dramatic sense and common sense.

Sense Capt America is the epitome of drama, I'd go with it.

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Except that the missile was moving away from Cap at an upward ballistic trajectory.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

"Realistically", would a human sized arm chucking something into space cause a lot of waste heat?

[Christopher]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

"Realistically"' date=' would a human sized arm chucking something into space cause a lot of waste heat?[/quote']

From the movement of the arm, or the Air Resistance of the moving object?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

From the movement of the arm' date=' or the Air Resistance of the moving object?[/quote']

 

The former is what I was actually had in mind, but now i'm interested in the latter as well.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

For an "orbital" throw, wouldn't you be looking at orbital speed instead of escape velocity? An acceleration of 3-6000m/sec/sec would be sufficient.

4 million divided by 18 million, equals roughly .2 kg(about half a pound). If you allow the 70 STR person to push, then you can quadruple the weight, and they can throw around a kilo into space. 6E Grond, at peak STR(120, with pushing), should be able to hurl a 200kg object into orbit.