How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

That should allow them to grow new abilities at an rate roughly comparable to the characters in the source material.

 

Well, in the source material most characters never had any growth but rather stayed the same. Characters once in a while would suddenly have a power they never displayed before, but they often never displayed it again after it was used in 1 story. So maybe they should get no experience but a Joker from a deck of cards to play whenever they suddenly need to do something like that.

 

Golden Age superhero teams would either have each hero have a separate adventure and then report back to the team, or else they would split into small teams of 2-3 and tackle the X number of menaces and then report back to the team. I can't recall any where the whole team went into action as a unit. I have all the Golden Age DC Archives and Marvel Masterworks that have been released to date so I'm pretty sure that's correct.

[csyphrett]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

How does the split team factor into your planning, Assault?

CES

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

How does the split team factor into your planning, Assault?

CES

 

I'm not totally sure of what you mean, but I'm working on the basis that each character works fairly independently of each other. In effect, each "scenario" basically consists of a set of solo adventures run in parallel.

 

Obviously this would be easier in an online game, but I think it could work in a face to face setting if the scenarios are relatively simple, and basically feed into combats. There's no particular drama in running combats where the characters are a long way away from each other, except, of course, for when they lose!

 

Like I said, easier in an online game.

[csyphrett]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

So you would have to have sets of adventures for your players. Are you planning some kind of common factor to get your players together at beginning and end?

CES

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Well' date=' in the source material most characters never had any growth but rather stayed the same.[/quote']

 

Yes and no. Even the ones that notionally stayed the same often tended to expand their range of abilities. Superman is the best known example. Green Lantern is another.

 

Of course there were cases where new abilities were explicitly gained. Wonder Woman's lasso is a classic case, even though it was quickly retconned that she had had it from the beginning.

 

Batman expanded his range of abilities pretty comprehensively, from having a rope, a civilian roadster, and operating from his apartment to a full utility belt, the Batmobile, the Batcave and of course, Robin.

 

All of this stuff can be usefully modelled through the use of experience points.

 

See the "Back to Basics" thread for some of my rough drafts of starting versions of Golden Age characters. Note the "starting versions" bit.

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

So you would have to have sets of adventures for your players. Are you planning some kind of common factor to get your players together at beginning and end?

CES

 

Yes. In many cases, there would be a common enemy behind it all, whether it's one person or a Nazi Spy Ring.

 

I'm not quite sure how to handle the Big Bad. It might be best to rotate who gets to take him out, or else have a "framing sequence" encounter where everyone converges on his hideout.

 

Strangely enough, it seems that Johnny Thunder was often the one who got to capture the bad guy in JSA cases....

[csyphrett]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Yes. In many cases, there would be a common enemy behind it all, whether it's one person or a Nazi Spy Ring.

 

I'm not quite sure how to handle the Big Bad. It might be best to rotate who gets to take him out, or else have a "framing sequence" encounter where everyone converges on his hideout.

 

Strangely enough, it seems that Johnny Thunder was often the one who got to capture the bad guy in JSA cases....

 

he was the schmoe despite being the third or fourth most powerful guy depending on how you look at it.

CES

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

he was the schmoe despite being the third or fourth most powerful guy depending on how you look at it.

CES

 

Heck, he could be THE most powerful member if he actually used his magic Thunderbolt to its full potential. But he was supposed to be the comic relief.

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Even the ones that notionally stayed the same often tended to expand their range of abilities. Superman is the best known example. Green Lantern is another.

 

Not really. They hadn't been fully formed characters until after the 1st year of publication. The writers hadn't decided what they could or couldn't do and a lot of the early stories are inconsistent with each other. After that, nothing really changed if you actually read the comics. That doesn't work in game mechanics with experience points because you don't progress for a year and then stop forever after that.

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I dunno. I still think there was enough growth to justify using xps. Apart from anything else, typical starting characters won't be able to do all the things their prototypes can do.

 

It works well enough for game purposes, anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

As far as size goes, by the mid-‘40’s, the JSA included

 

Sandman, Hourman (former member), Starman, Dr. Fate, the Spectre, Green Lantern (honorary member), the Atom, Dr, Mid Nite, Flash (honorary member), Hawkman, Johnny Thunder, Superman (honorary member), Batman (honorary member), Wonder Woman (secretary) and Red Tornado (party crasher).

 

Latecomers included Wildcat and Mr. Terrific (who only appeared once) and Black Canary (who replaced Johnny here when she phased him out of his own strip).

 

Some of that was the formula – you had to have a feature to be on the team; there were two characters from each of the four main books; if you had a full book you became an honorary member (or, in WW’c case, were introduced as secretary). When the publishers who co-operated All Star had a feud, characters from one line got replaced with those from another line, so we got Wildcat and Mr. Terrific for a single story.

 

So how do those stack up between “Mystery Man with a Gimmick” and “SuperPowered Hero”? Depends how you classify borderline cases, I guess. Wildcat and Mr. Terrific will skew percentages if you count them, given they only appeared once.

 

The better question, I’d say, is “how do you want your game to run”, not “what was the reality of the golden age comics”. Although it offers an option for those extra xp for having solo adventures – let the players choose, but be aware that the more you take, the more likely you must have achieved a solo book to have all those adventures, in which case you’re downgraded to honorary member and rarely appear

 

The JSA was the only team with a changing cast, though, but they were also the only one with a really lengthy publishing history (55 appearances - still not huge). The Seven Soldiers had 14 appearances, and All-Winners Squad appeared twice.

[Christopher]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Yes and no. Even the ones that notionally stayed the same often tended to expand their range of abilities. Superman is the best known example. Green Lantern is another.

 

Of course there were cases where new abilities were explicitly gained. Wonder Woman's lasso is a classic case, even though it was quickly retconned that she had had it from the beginning.

 

Batman expanded his range of abilities pretty comprehensively, from having a rope, a civilian roadster, and operating from his apartment to a full utility belt, the Batmobile, the Batcave and of course, Robin.

 

All of this stuff can be usefully modelled through the use of experience points.

 

See the "Back to Basics" thread for some of my rough drafts of starting versions of Golden Age characters. Note the "starting versions" bit.

At least in the TV-Comics, they tend to get "stronger". Enemies that where once the center of a story, where reduced to mook level (or at least "normal bad guy") in the epsiode finale or later fights.

It think it was that the heroes got stronger, while their adversaries stayed at their starting level.

[Darren Watts]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

In my previous GA campaign (the San Francisco one where DOJ got named), we once tried a genuine period-style adventure, where a bad guy was trying to get all the pieces of a high-tech weapon, which had been disassembled and hid by the scientists that created it. Each player got a solo adventure battling some minor henchman villain for the piece, but in each case the mastermind had slipped in and stolen it, so they had to all team up in the end to unmask the mastermind and stop him from using the assembled weapon. It was fun and all, and the players seemed to like it, but nobody thought it was fun enough to do again instead of our regular group adventures. In GAC I'll be writing extensively on the difference between Period GA (in the manner of the comics as they were actually published) versus Retro GA (stories in the GA period and influenced by the original comics, but with much more of a focus on modern superhero storytelling sensibilities like active teams, powerful supervillains, and less casual sexism and racism.) dw

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Although it offers an option for those extra xp for having solo adventures – let the players choose' date=' but be aware that the more you take, the more likely you must have achieved a solo book to have all those adventures, in which case you’re downgraded to honorary member and rarely appear [/quote']

 

I like that!

 

I doubt any player it happened to would, though.

 

Then again, maybe that's why Johnny Thunder became a full member - Flash's player was in a bad mood about him being retired!

 

Repped.

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

a genuine period-style adventure' date=' ... It was fun and all, and the players seemed to like it, but nobody thought it was fun enough to do again instead of our regular group adventures.[/quote']

 

It probably works best as an occasional thing, true.

 

Apart from anything else, there are obvious mechanical problems, due to the extreme case of splitting the party. There's a real risk that everyone ends up spending most of their time sitting around waiting for everyone else to have their turn.

 

That would be less of a problem in an online game, presumably.

 

In GAC I'll be writing extensively on the difference between Period GA (in the manner of the comics as they were actually published) versus Retro GA (stories in the GA period and influenced by the original comics, but with much more of a focus on modern superhero storytelling sensibilities like active teams, powerful supervillains, and less casual sexism and racism.) dw

 

I think the main difference is that Period GA is more Pulp-like, while Retro GA is more like "modern" superhero comics. In fact, it should be possible to lift Pulp Hero villains and plots and drop them straight into a Period GA game. At most, they might need their combat abilities slightly enhanced, but even that might only be true for the more combat oriented ones.

 

Memo to self: reread Pulp Hero.

 

I'm not sure I'd personally be all that interested in playing a Retro GA game. At that point, I'd probably just play a Silver Age one instead. (GURPS Atomic Horror is the best game oriented source I've seen for that period. There's a lot of Golden Age and Pulp hangovers though. Sadly it doesn't seem likely we'll ever see Silver Age Champions being published...)

 

Building early Silver Age characters is a bit tricky though, since they tended to resemble late GA ones more than the early kind, and are thus more complicated and harder to build on the same point totals.

 

Trying to build Supergirl is fun - she's a definitely a starting level character, except she's from Krypton. (Hint: she fights like a 15 year old girl from a very sheltered background.)

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Heh. Well, I started the thread, so I'm allowed to veer off topic...

 

There's probably a bit of a discrepancy in Silver Age characters between "DC type" and "Marvel type" characters.

 

"Marvel type" ones probably resemble standard Champions characters more than "DC type" ones. Basically, they are oriented more towards survival in a relatively combat heavy environment, while "DC type" ones are more oriented towards performing spectacular non-combat feats. The result is, that for a particular point total, "Marvel type" will tend to be superior combatants.

 

Which is more effective overall would depend on the flavour of the game.

 

There is actually a middle ground, but it requires seriously restricting the abilities of the "DC style" characters, at least to begin with. A JLA game would be viable though, particularly if a version of the extra experience for off-stage solo adventures is used.

 

That could also work for the Avengers, but the latter are more prone to include characters that don't regularly appear anywhere else.

 

EDIT: I might actually sketch up a starting version of Supergirl, just to show what's possible. I won't use this thread though - probably the Back to Basics one instead.

 

I might actually use 6E rather than 5E - it has some advantages for this kind of character.

 

She won't be able to fight her way out of a wet paper bag, but she'll be able to do most of the things she was actually shown doing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Then again' date=' maybe that's why Johnny Thunder became a full member - Flash's player was in a bad mood about him being retired![/quote']

 

Well, Johnny was probably the third most popular Super in Flash Comics (Flash being out due to All-Flash Comics and Hawkman already being in).

 

from wiki:

 

Series published in Flash Comics include:

 

The Flash - issues #1-104

Hawkman - issues #1-104

Johnny Thunder - issues #1-91

The Whip

Cliff Cornwall

Ghost Patrol

Black Canary - issues #92-104

 

Not a lot of other options (Canary replaced Johnny in the JSA when she booted out his strip from Flash Comics).

 

To the overall issue, "splitting up the party" is definitely one of those tropes that works better in fiction than in the game.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Well, Johnny was probably the third most popular Super in Flash Comics (Flash being out due to All-Flash Comics and Hawkman already being in).

 

from wiki:

 

Series published in Flash Comics include:

 

The Flash - issues #1-104

Hawkman - issues #1-104

Johnny Thunder - issues #1-91

The Whip

Cliff Cornwall

Ghost Patrol

Black Canary - issues #92-104

 

Not a lot of other options (Canary replaced Johnny in the JSA when she booted out his strip from Flash Comics).

 

To the overall issue, "splitting up the party" is definitely one of those tropes that works better in fiction than in the game.

 

I think it only really works if you have more than one GM, and/or if each player is playing 2 (or 3) PCs apiece(with one in each sub-group). Otherwise you just have half the group sitting around bored, waiting for their turn to RP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I think it only really works if you have more than one GM' date=' and/or if each player is playing 2 (or 3) PCs apiece(with one in each sub-group). Otherwise you just have half the group sitting around bored, waiting for their turn to RP.[/quote']

 

Yup - the other members of the team don't have players sitting around when the writer splits the JSA up into subteams.

 

The other approach is to run the three breakout scenarios simultaneously, such that all the players are still involved in something (and what a coincidence that combat breaks out in all three sub-episodes at the same time!).

 

I have run scenes where all the characters are engaged in combat at the same time, but in different locations. [A comic example is an old JLA where six villains attack six cities at the same time, and each of the 6 available Leaguers teleports from the satellite to a different location. Making it a little more Silver Age-y, the Elongated Man, before they leave, suggests they spice things up a bit by drawing villains from a hat rather than each going after their own traditional enemy...] Those work fairly well as the GM really only needs to run the same number of combatants he would have otherwise, but it does mean an unlucky one punch is even more likely to leave someone standing around (also prevents a lot of synergies and teamwork).

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

The other approach is to run the three breakout scenarios simultaneously, such that all the players are still involved in something (and what a coincidence that combat breaks out in all three sub-episodes at the same time!).

 

I have run scenes where all the characters are engaged in combat at the same time, but in different locations. [A comic example is an old JLA where six villains attack six cities at the same time, and each of the 6 available Leaguers teleports from the satellite to a different location. Making it a little more Silver Age-y, the Elongated Man, before they leave, suggests they spice things up a bit by drawing villains from a hat rather than each going after their own traditional enemy...] Those work fairly well as the GM really only needs to run the same number of combatants he would have otherwise, but it does mean an unlucky one punch is even more likely to leave someone standing around (also prevents a lot of synergies and teamwork).

Bingo! That's exactly how this kind of thing would have to be run.

 

As I've mentioned, I think it would work better online, rather than face to face.

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Well' date=' Johnny was probably the third most popular Super in Flash Comics (Flash being out due to All-Flash Comics and Hawkman already being in).[/quote']

 

Interesting idea: what if each title characters were drawn from represented a different player?

 

The original team would have had four players. Wonder Woman would have been a fifth.

 

The (munchkin!) player that was running the Spectre and Dr Fate obviously dropped out in 1944.

 

Incidentally, you could run a very sweet campaign using the Mort Weisinger characters from More Fun Comics. Aquaman, Green Arrow and Johnny Quick. The first two made it through to the Silver Age as backup features, and JQ made it to 1954. He'd have probably lasted longer if the Flash hadn't stolen his thunder in 1956.

 

That's a nice little line up. Basically, it's the Teen Titans: Aqualad, Speedy and Kid Flash. If you wanted another character, Superboy started off as an entirely playable character. No female characters, though. Maybe a version of Supergirl that reflects the More Fun #101 version of Superboy? There are more modern options, if you like that kind of thing.

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I just have the players have multiple characters they run, but seldom simultaneously. For instance:

 

Player 1: Hawkman, Flash

Player 2: Batman, Green Lantern

Player 3: Sandman, Wonder Woman

Player 4: Captain America, Human Torch

 

Then when I split the team to go off on missions, each player chooses which of his heroes goes on which mission. Thus:

 

Mission A: Hawkman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and Captain America go off to Florida to investigate the disappearance of the Keys!

Mission B: Flash, Batman, Sandman, and Human Torch look into a series of bizarre morgue robberies!

 

That way everyone is active in every mission, you get a good-sized team, and you get a mix of high- and low-power heroes without anyone getting screwed.

 

And you can always tell the players which hero is suitable for a mission if for some reason Green Lantern would ruin Mission A.

 

And if you need the whole team together for a climactic battle, it's not a huge deal if a player has 2 heroes, especially if the player is a good roleplayer.

 

This worked great for me when I ran a FASA Star Trek game with 4 players filling the 8 major jobs on the 1960s show.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

An online game would facilitate investigation and other noncombat scenarios in small groups or solo.

 

I've used bluebooking in face to face sessions with a split party, which can work reasonably well, but does slow down play. The same slowdown would occur online, but then it's expected.

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I guess the obvious thing for me to do is bite the bullet and run a smallish, limited duration online game along these lines and see how it goes. Say, 3-4 players, and a single, simple scenario to see if it works.

 

Time to get writing...

 

I would never, of course, think about stealing a scenario wholesale from All-Star Comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I would never' date=' of course, think about stealing a scenario wholesale from All-Star Comics. [/quote']

 

Rightly so. Thinking about it only delays getting it done. Just do it!

 

You know, that kind of structure would be great for characters of widely differing power levels. Since the Spectre has his chapter, and the Atom has his, they can each face challenges appropriate to their niche, power level and abilities.