How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

[assault]

I'm thinking about writing up, or at least sketching out, a few Golden Age scenarios. Obviously, I need to decide what size group I am writing them for. I don't have an actual group at the moment, so this is an exercise for its own sake.

 

I'm planning on creating relatively "authentic" scenarios, not Roy Thomas-style modern ones.

 

Some contemporary groups: the JSA hovered around 7 or 8 members. The Seven Soldiers of Victory and the All Winners Squad had 5 "full" members and a bunch of sidekicks. The Marvel Family had three, not counting ring-ins.

 

So, that suggests 3-8. On the other hand, the bigger the group, the more work is involved. I'm thinking of assuming 5.

 

What do people think? What would you like to see?

[csyphrett]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

The crimebusters had eight, Assault, so the three to eight members might be good. If five is the average, I don't see a problem.

 

Most GA teams were mostly masked vigilantes with maybe one/two guys who were up there.

 

The JSA had Fate and the Spectre mixed in with Sandman, Atom, and Dr. Mid-nite.

 

The crimebusters had bulletman, bulletgirl, mr scarlet and Captain marvel jr.

 

I dont know if that helps at all.

CES

[kahuna's bro]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

the all-star squadron was supposed to merge the jsa and the seven soldiers with any solo mystery-men for the war effort home front due to the jsa charter limits which seemed reasonable at the time

[csyphrett]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

the all-star squadron was supposed to merge the jsa and the seven soldiers with any solo mystery-men for the war effort home front due to the jsa charter limits which seemed reasonable at the time

They might have retconned that, but the reason given was FDR knew the war was going to happen and the JSA was out of action so he wanted a legion of heroes to draw on instead of one team

 

Plus Assault has stated he doesnt want anything like the All Stars, or the Liberty Legion, which combined all the little teams and solo heroes into one team, and use the real teams that were there.

CES

[kahuna's bro]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

i think my rsonaable limits were misinterpeted i agree the JSA or any mystery-man [as that was what they were called before the term super-hero was popularized] should limit thier membership to a resonable and manageable number while haveing good relatins with simular teams

[Bloodstone]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I like stories that feature a fairly robust cast. One of my main mega teams has roster of 18 members.

 

But in actual play I find my groups tend to operate best with 6 or less main characters, so that mega team is split into three cells of six members each.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Two comments: first, 3-8 players is likely the normative range for most rpg groups. More than 8 gets unwieldy for a GM, and less than 3 is more of a "dynamic duo" or "solo" than a team adventure.

Second, it's possible to have quite large superteams, but in practice I think the best approach to such a thing is similar to the premise in Justice League Unlimited--lots of heroes, but generally a 3-8 person "squad" is selected, based on abilities and the mission, to handle individual missions. A good way to simulate this is to have each player write up more than one character, and the GM can either ask the player which one they want to play this week, or specifically ask them to play a particular character for the scenario. A side benefit of this is that, when a mega-villain or master villain shows up, the players can each run more than one PC, and they're not bored if one of their PCs gets knocked out.

[Hermit]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Assuming this is happening during WW2...I think a good way to go might be to split up one overall team into three different teams of five, each focusing chiefly (but not exclusively) on different areas of the war. With it truly being a WORLD War, it makes sense that these heroes might try to cover as much ground as possible.

 

So you'd have fifteen heroes overall, but only juggle five at a time. Transfers between the team would be easily explained. Each team would need a field leader, the 'reliable guy' , the wiseacre, and the obligatory 'dame' plus a 5th who's personality might vary. Not hard and fast rules, but guidelines that might make it easier to whip them up. Then decide whether you want to go with the European front, the Pacific crew, or the "homeguard"(to fight the evil "Fifth Column")

 

From an American point of view, a team write up for one of the divisions might look like this.

Griffon Brigade Chiefly a mix of British and American superheroes and named because the Lion and Eagle were one in the cause, the Griffon Brigade fights chiefly in Europe against the Nazis and Italian forces. The American government had more 'masked men to draw from' and pushed hard to have an American put in charge. Under certain provisos this was granted.

 

Their membership:

(field commander) - Doctor "Doc" Liberty a true renaissance man, Doc Liberty insists on a rigorous work out program to keep his body as mighty as his brain. Couple this with the many inventions he's perfected (alas, many are too expensive or complicated for the average soldier to work) and you have a true force to reckon with. Unfortunately, while he fights like a tiger and thinks like a brain-trust of one, he doesn't always do so well with the political 'games' of the upper brass and is a bit blunt. However, years of training has allowed him an almost uncanny ability to read a man's face and other signs and tell if he is lying or not. While some might think he's too cerebral, he actually is a man of great passion, and he finds the ways Nazis twist science to be offensive beyond words.

 

(2nd in Command) - Major Oak on the other hand is VERY personable, easy going with troops, and knows when to keep his mouth shut when the brass has its collective knickers in a twist. His rank is honorary, and named after one of the more famous types of trees in England. His power is growth, and he can become a giant in a moment's notice. This also puts in in the 'strong man role', though he is cautious in crowded cities were innocents might be crushed were he to fall. Doc maybe smarter in most areas, but even Doc will admit Major Oak is more people savvy. It is rumored he shot down the name "Big Ben" when it was suggested, so the man is hardly afraid to stand up for himself. A proud citizen of the United Kingdom, he is fighting to save the land he loves.

 

(The Wiseacre)Kid Wright isn't as young as he looks. Named in honor of the inventors of man-made flight (ask any American) who he is distantly related to, Kid Wright aka "The Wingless Ace" can fly without any mechanical aid at all. Doc Liberty suspects it is a highly focused psychokinesis, others believe it is a gift from god. Kid Wright himself jokes that it's merely 3 square meals, writing mother, and thinking happy thoughts. He's the joker of the crew, and loves to keep spirits light. His good looks and sense of humor have made him a hit with the ladies to the point that some wonder if the phrase "oversexed and over here" doesn't apply to him specifically. That aside, he's a decent man who couples his jests and jibes with heartfelt moments of compassion for the folks who have to endure the hell of war.

 

(The Dame)Lady Perilous There is a legend of a coven of witches who turned back a Spanish armada with weather magic. There are tales of a lost Camelot where the body of a King rests under the care of nine mystical sisters on a mysterious island that has faded. There are stories of women so favored by God that they have been given great gifts, or perhaps it is an older faith...

 

Lady Perilous has reminded folks of these rumors, and more. As fair a maid as any out of a story book, Lady Perilous has worked what some would call magic or miracles time and time again seemingly in ways that science cannot grasp (Much to Doc Liberty's vexation). She has read portents of the future, seemingly charmed men with a gesture, and even vanished into mist if one turns their eyes away from her for but a moment. She's English, but her accent is odd for all that. She has mentioned more than once that she will stand by this team, even if it may yet mean her doom. The latter comment often followed by a blush, but she won't go into details.

 

(the other guy)The Cockerel a master of Savate with swashbuckler styling, hailing from Gascony; it is as if this young Frenchman read Dumas' work and decided to emulate d'Artagnan brash nature as a way of life. He detests running from a fight and lives to see the day his homeland is freed from "Traitors" and "Nazi filth". He does have one superpower,a brief burst of speed and heightened agility that makes him truly amazing for nearly a minute. Unfortunately it winds him afterward. He will not speak of the source of his power, but Doc Liberty suspects the poor lad was once captured by Nazi scientists and possibly experimented on.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Hermit, your idea sounds like a varient of a "Five Man Band", which I find a convenient way to organize my own fictional teams, adding others if needed (Mentor, Tagalong Kid, Sixth Ranger, Team Pet...)

[Hermit]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Hermit' date=' your idea sounds like a varient of a "Five Man Band", which I find a convenient way to organize my own fictional teams, adding others if needed (Mentor, Tagalong Kid, Sixth Ranger, Team Pet...)[/quote']

 

Oh sure, the teams are more those in the field as heroes, so plenty of room for other NPC DNPCS as called for. I originally meant to write up all three teams (An Australian Aquatic hero leading the Pacific crew and facing some bias (I saw "The King's Speech" one too many times) for being merely a 'colonial') but then my post nearly got eatten and I figured I better quit while I was ahead and only needed one example.

[Enforcer84]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Oh sure' date=' the teams are more those in the field as heroes, so plenty of room for other NPC DNPCS as called for. I originally meant to write up all three teams (An Australian Aquatic hero leading the Pacific crew and facing some bias (I saw "The King's Speech" one too many times) for being merely a 'colonial') but then my post nearly got eatten and I figured I better quit while I was ahead and only needed one example.[/quote']

 

Cat's out of the bag. Get cracking with the other 10.

[Darren Watts]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

My playtest team totals 14 heroes, not including a couple of DNPCs I throw in occasionally (Captain Patriot, who's usually off the field being Roosevelt's personal bodyguard, and Sea Hawk, who has recently reclaimed the throne of Atlantis.) That's seven players with 2 PCs each, one a powered hero defending the homefront and one a mystery man operating abroad since the Axis territories are protected by a magical "no-powers" field. Since we're now in the fall/winter of 1944, both teams are active in Europe, with the powered team now able to operate freely in France, and the nonpowered team currently on a mission to free a very special island in the Pacific (actually the home base of one of the players) from Japanese control before they figure out what it is they're holding. Usually the two teams remain separate with the entire group switching between one or the other, but a couple of times recently the whole crew has gotten together and players have been able to pick which of theirs they're using at any time. So far it's working pretty well. dw

[Enforcer84]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

*envies Darren's players*

[Darren Watts]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

The "home" (powered) team right now consists of:

Crimson Palm, the team leader, a mystic wearing only the right gauntlet of a suit of mystical armor;

Guardian Angel, a winged powerhouse who may or may not have been sent here by a higher power;

The Streak, a circus-trained speedster and practical joker;

Miss Strange, a wealthy art patron possessed by a strange extradimensional being;

Amber Wave, a WAC given GL-like force manipulation powers by the Philadelphia Experiment;

Chance, an FBI agent who is able to astrally project;

and Toy Soldier, a young teen who controls a miniature army with the magical army helmet of his dead father.

 

The "away" team (mystery men) consists of:

Justice, a former mobster given a second chance at life as a vigilante;

Agent Liberty, an acrobatic spy, Gypsy and femme fatale;

Doc Rocket, America's most brilliant inventor who uses a personal jetpack;

Spring-Heeled Jack, London's own street vigilante armed with rocket-powered jumping boots;

John Q. Citizen, mysterious method actor and master of disguise;

Synth, a biologist using gear derived from the world of nature;

and The Raven, masked hero of the jungles of the South Pacific.

 

dw

[Hermit]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I'll second Enforcer's envy

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

So the higher numbers (7 or so) seem to be appropriate for actual field teams. Bummer.

 

I'm not, of course, looking at All-Star Squadron type teams - they're simply absent from the material I am working with, which is all pre-1956.

 

OK, I'll go with 7.

 

Let's see: seven colours of the spectrum, seven deadly sins, seven virtues, numerology (& astrology), seven wonders of the world. Arch-enemies of the PCs (once established). Seven piece McGuffins.

 

Any other collection of things that fortuitously add up to seven.

 

Gangsters, saboteurs/spies, invaders, mystic threats, mad scientists, "supervillain groups" (see arch-enemies of the PCs).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Well, the real Golden Age superteams didn't actually have field teams. The JSA and Seven Soldiers of Victory format was for all the heroes to meet at the start and become aware of the threat, split up into solo adventures and meet up again at the end, so field teams weren't an issue. As the cost of paper went up and the page count went down (and many books got cancelled), the JSA moved to a structure were the whole team met at the start and the end, but smaller groups, normally 1 or two characters, appeared in the intervening chapters.

 

At DC, that model proceeded well into the Silver Age with the Justice League stories following the same format. Marvel (and DC books like Teen Titans and Doom Patrol) went with the "team operates together" model in the silver age. Anyone know whether any Atlas team books exist, and whether they followed that format? I know the Invaders were conceptualized in the '70s.

 

Anyway, if you wanted smaller field teams formed from a larger pool, the precedent for really small field teams definitely exists.

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Most GA teams were mostly masked vigilantes with maybe one/two guys who were up there.

 

The JSA had Fate and the Spectre mixed in with Sandman, Atom, and Dr. Mid-nite.

CES

 

The (historical comic book version) JSA also had Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and the Flash, so it was about 50-50 masked vigilantes and cosmic powerhouses. And Hawkman somewhere in the middle.

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Hermit' date=' your idea sounds like a varient of a "Five Man Band", which I find a convenient way to organize my own fictional teams, adding others if needed (Mentor, Tagalong Kid, Sixth Ranger, Team Pet...)[/quote']

 

This is something I strenuously avoid as all teams end up looking alike, a bunch of cliches.

[matthewcelis]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

My playtest team totals 14 heroes' date=' not including a couple of DNPCs I throw in occasionally (Captain Patriot, who's usually off the field being Roosevelt's personal bodyguard, and Sea Hawk, who has recently reclaimed the throne of Atlantis.) That's seven players with 2 PCs each, one a powered hero defending the homefront and one a mystery man operating abroad since the Axis territories are protected by a magical "no-powers" field. Since we're now in the fall/winter of 1944, both teams are active in Europe, with the powered team now able to operate freely in France, and the nonpowered team currently on a mission to free a very special island in the Pacific (actually the home base of one of the players) from Japanese control before they figure out what it is they're holding. Usually the two teams remain separate with the entire group switching between one or the other, but a couple of times recently the whole crew has gotten together and players have been able to pick which of theirs they're using at any time. So far it's working pretty well. dw[/quote']

 

That sounds like tons of fun, a hoot and a half!

[Christopher]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Most often seen in on the TV are small core teams, but quite often not all members are there. Especially the one member that could kick that bricks/desolid/mentalists butt isn't there, when you need him.

It's also quite important to have a large vareity of "associated heroes".

 

For example, teh Defenders in "Champions 6E" consist of:

Power Armor

Speedster

Brick

Blaster

Mystic

 

And has the followign "associtated" Heroes:

Dr. Silverback, scientist

Nightwind: Martial Artist, Investigator

Blockhead: Anotehr Brick

Ultratech: Gadgeteer

Crusader: Blaster wielder

Nighthawk: Ex-Member, Criminalistic expertise

The entire "Millennium City 8".

 

That way they have a good mix, but also an ally for the right job. Of course it could be difficulty to translate this to a RPG. The best idea I have to assign player an NPC instead of his usual character and let the players normal character have the XP (he made an adventure on his own).

Or you drag them around as NPC/Mr. Exposition. Just keep one thing in mind: NPC's should never come across as more powerfull than the PC's, or at least not the entire team. Even Superman, Thor, Defender and Witchcraft could have a bad day against their nemesis (because of thier know weaknesses).

[McCoy]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Well' date=' the real Golden Age superteams didn't actually have field teams. The JSA and Seven Soldiers of Victory format was for all the heroes to meet at the start and become aware of the threat, split up into solo adventures and meet up again at the end, so field teams weren't an issue. As the cost of paper went up and the page count went down (and many books got cancelled), the JSA moved to a structure were the whole team met at the start and the end, but smaller groups, normally 1 or two characters, appeared in the intervening chapters.[/quote']

Yep. Larger team splits into three small teams then comes back together. Six is a good number.

[RexMundi]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

I'm rolled with a big Roster, around 14-18 at any given time with a split of 50/50 PowerHouse's and Masked Men/Women of Mystery, hence, everyone has a Power House, and a Masked Vigilante and they can switch up as they feel it. Works well has a nice All Star Squadron feel to it has a lot of variety and adapts well to people dropping in or out because you can cover every storyline from Major Event to squads to Dynamic Duo stuff.

 

~Rex

[csyphrett]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

The (historical comic book version) JSA also had Green Lantern' date=' Wonder Woman, and the Flash, so it was about 50-50 masked vigilantes and cosmic powerhouses. And Hawkman somewhere in the middle.[/quote']

 

That was my point.

CES

[assault]

Re: How big should a Golden Age superteam be?

 

Well' date=' the real Golden Age superteams didn't actually have field teams. The JSA and Seven Soldiers of Victory format was for all the heroes to meet at the start and become aware of the threat, split up into solo adventures and meet up again at the end,[/quote']

 

Exactly. Not only didn't All-Star Squadron type conglomerations exist, the actual "teams" themselves basically operated as individuals.

 

A "typical" team adventure would basically be a bunch of solo adventures with a common theme.

 

Tricky to write, especially for a largish team, and probably better to play in an online format than face to face.

 

Not even remotely like more modern "Golden Age" stories. Hence the challenge.

 

EDIT: an additional thought - characters are assumed to be having solo adventures in addition to their "team" ones. Presumably this should be factored into the experience they receive. Maybe an extra point or two for every team adventure they play?

 

That should allow them to grow new abilities at an rate roughly comparable to the characters in the source material.