No magic?

[CrosshairCollie]

Something I've been pondering ... I tend to prefer tech-based characters over magical ones, 9 times out of 10. And my villains tend to follow suit when I run games.

 

Outside of stripping out certain types of villains, would there be any particular pitfalls to simply running a no-magic Champions game?

[Bloodstone]

Re: No magic?

 

Depends on how you do it. This could potentially kill a lot of character concepts, but the players might be just fine with that.

 

Do you want everyone to be tech based?

 

Or will there be mutants, aliens and other folks with superhuman abilities that completely bend physics but which folks simply choose not to call "magic"?

 

Oh, and Clarke's Law in 3...2...1...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: No magic?

 

Yeah, yeah, Clarke's Law. Sometimes I hate that guy ...

 

But, yeah, still aliens, mutants, and altered humans, but any altered humans would be altered by technological methods.

 

Basically, the special effect 'Magic' would not exist, is the short of it.

[Folded]

Re: No magic?

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that you're stripping out character concepts as much as you might think. A tech-based hero who used 'mystical' themes and effects would work just fine. There's a DC villain of some sort who's a time-traveler, and uses that tech to create a stage magician style. Another character with limitations on otherwise inherent powers based on his/her belief that they were 'magic' would work just fine, as well. It can look like magic without actually being magic, is the upshot.

[Escafarc]

Re: No magic?

 

... There's a DC villain of some sort who's a time-traveler' date=' and uses that tech to create a stage magician style. ...[/quote']

 

That would be Abra Kadabra

 

[Bloodstone]

Re: No magic?

 

Like I said, it potentially kills a lot of character concepts, but so long as you are up front about the setting parameters, I don't see it being a huge issue. As a player, I could personally live with it.

 

Of course, if I REALLY, REALLY had my heart set on some sort of magic, I'd probably just play an alien, extra-dimensional being or mutant with a VPP that was ultimately the result of my psionic ability to warp reality or tap into the power cosmic. Nanites and hard light construct are also a great short hand for magic that isn't really magic. Magic weapons become alien artifacts, creatures of myth are mutant bloodlines, extra dimensional beings or aliens.

 

Are you planning to use the CU as a base or will this be completely homebrew?

[casualplayer]

Re: No magic?

 

Kinda the inverse of the Mage RPG, where technology is only viable because of consensus reality and marketing. But sure, you could do everything from ruling Magic out entirely as a source of power to having vast cosmic entities veto any hocus pocus access to skeptical inquirers refusing to acknowledge Magic as Magic. Honestly most empowered people don't, and probably shouldn't, know exactly where their power stems from anyway. Most people don't get clear cut origin stories.

 

Set up your game's premise. If player doesn't want to abide by those premises, then say "Thanks for playing" and send them packing.

[Christopher]

Re: No magic?

 

Outside of stripping out certain types of villains' date=' would there be any particular pitfalls to simply running a no-magic Champions game?[/quote']

What exactly do you mean with the word "magic"?

Why exaclty is your definition of magic not just an additional Force of Nature, like Gravity?

Especially: Could magic "fields"/"effects" be produced or affected with technology?

 

And dependign on what you answered above:

Why?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: No magic?

 

Are you planning to use the CU as a base or will this be completely homebrew?

 

Not sure. Probably Homebrew with massive stealing from the CU, really. I'd have to re-write big chunks of the CU timeline (no Turakian/Valdorian/Atlantean Ages, no Takofanes, no Crowns of Krim, no Talisman or Witchcraft, etc etc) to the point where there would be more differences than similarities, I suspect.

[assault]

Re: No magic?

 

It shouldn't be any big drama. Even Doctor Fate's mentor Nabu was an alien.

 

Some concepts are harder to translate from magical to non-magical - but the early version of the Martian Manhunter had a lot in common with the Spectre.

[Clonus]

Re: No magic?

 

Something I've been pondering ... I tend to prefer tech-based characters over magical ones, 9 times out of 10. And my villains tend to follow suit when I run games.

 

Outside of stripping out certain types of villains, would there be any particular pitfalls to simply running a no-magic Champions game?

 

"Magic" is just a special effect. The major pitfall of not allowing it is that announcing it doesn't exist frequently causes people to present you with psionic characters who use gestures and incantations to help themselves concentrate. In fact I did run a game which had vampires, werewolves, a rakshasa, and a witch...but the magic SFX wasn't available. In retrospect I wondered why I bothered.

[Escafarc]

Re: No magic?

 

I would love for some of my players to come up with a magic based character or two. They also tend to avoid mentalist too. Mutants, High-tech, and Martial Artist are the most common types.

[Enforcer84]

Re: No magic?

 

Something I've been pondering ... I tend to prefer tech-based characters over magical ones, 9 times out of 10. And my villains tend to follow suit when I run games.

 

Outside of stripping out certain types of villains, would there be any particular pitfalls to simply running a no-magic Champions game?

 

Depends on your players' views, doesn't it? Probably wouldn't be too big a deal.

[dmjalund]

Re: No magic?

 

Clarke's Law. following the trials and tribulations of an ADA in a Shadowrun style world.

[Christopher]

Re: No magic?

 

"Magic" is just a special effect.

Not nessesarily. I asked above what his definition of magic was.

 

I personally get the feeling it is usually hard to adjusticate what magic SFX can do with a Power Roll or as the SFX for a VPP (as opposed th say, lightning or heat powers). A similar problem comes up with Gadgeteering.

They can, according to all sources, produce lightning, fire, cold and a dozen other SFX's. I think when talking about/forbidding magic, most GM mean this: That magic can resonable create a lot of common SFX's. I even once believed that too.

 

Until I stubeled upon Champions 6E, page 46 and the paragraph on how to handle the "Cosmic Power" SFX:

No mater what the attack looks like, if it's a fireball, lightning bolt or Laser Assault Riffle out of thin air - it's still considered Cosmic SFX. So a "Lightning Bolt" with cosmic power sfx, is still Comic power and not Ligthning. It won't trigger SFX defenses, Vulnerabilities or the like to Lightning, but will affect those targetting Cosmic SFX.

When he really want's to make a "real" Fire SFX attack, he needs "Variable SFX" on a fitting Level.

[Arc Esu]

Re: No magic?

 

The biggest pitfall to taking magic out of a Champions game is that it seems kind of random. What with the "kitchen sink" approach that most superhero universes (including the CU) use when it comes to the origins of superpowers, taking one and only one out without having a specific reason seems like you're restricting player (and villain) choice with no upside. As a player, I would wonder why the GM took out magic but nothing else, and suspect that magic did exist and would be part of some future story arc, or that maybe it would be revealed that all superpowers were magical in origin all along. Subsequently, I would be disappointed when nothing came of it.

 

That being said, all GMs have their personal preferences, and there's nothing wrong with running your game the way you want. But I think your current strategy of "just don't use many magical characters" is better than just outright forbidding them.

[Folded]

Re: No magic?

 

Actually, I can understand this from a world-creator point of view. Magic is simply a particular method of handwaving. It carries certain flavors and possibilities with it that the OP is clearly not interested in. And what sets Magic apart from High-tech, Mutant or Mentalist effect types is that Magic cannot be clearly defined. There are hundreds of different traditions in the real world alone, much less those you could add from fiction or make up. High-tech is based (ultimately) on the scientific process, though it may not have real-world scientific results. Mutants and Accidents acquire powers inherent to them, but don't represent a whole kind of power. Mentalists can be brought in with a scientific sort of basis. But Magic just sort of leaves everything open. How does the power of a Native American shaman summoning kachina interact with the abilities of Gandalf?

 

It seems to me that this is a perfectly valid thematic choice to make for a world, whether supers are there or not. As a GM, I have given out rules like 'no aliens or time-travelers', and not drawn an eyeblink from my players. And they didn't assume it was because I wanted all of the aliens and time-travelers under my control, it was just part of the campaign setting. Since Hero does bring the kitchen-sink and several other plumbing fixtures to the mix, and since any powerset can be defined along just about any SFX, why worry about it?

[Martin2]

Re: No magic?

 

In my world Aliens do not exist. Space travel is limited to just beyond current levels due to super technology and we have not met anybody yet.

 

Any written hero or villain with an alien concept either does not exist or is either a funny looking mutant or accident concept etc. Back stories have to be altered but sometimes they are not needed to be known. Its easy to change an alien to a mutant, tech or even a magic using one.

 

It is probably a similar sort of thing. I do not like aliens. I do not want to have to think of the infinate possibilities of hundred of different races that exist in Champions / DC / Marvel etc and what they are doing and why they do not invade in force or just "nuke the planet from orbit".

 

Being from Britain I am more used to folk lore and mythology (and also a D&D player and a Tolkien fan) so I could not do without magic. Even though it is not that strong in my campaign.

 

But Aliens I can do without .

[Ravor]

Re: No magic?

 

Personally I'd just make the same character and change the SFX to "extra-dimensional".

[phoenix240]

Re: No magic?

 

I'm not a big fan of comic book style magic either and I don't think banning it from your setting will have any major repercussion. Like with characters, sometimes the limitations in a setting give it more flavor. It's not any different from saying all superpowers must stem from inborn mutations or from a common event (Aberrant, for example which also has No Magic). The biggest problem is where do you draw the line. Would you accept a "Psonic" character with a nearly Cosmic Vpp powered by drawing on "psionic lifeforce" of the universe or the like? What would make that different from magic except in technically?

[Ravor]

Re: No magic?

 

That is one of the reasons why I have a hard time deciding whether any given character should be "magic" or "cosmic" in nature considering that I tend to treat my magical theory as basically the same as an extra-dimensional cosmic power wielder.

 

 

But with that said, personally I don't mind a campaign having a single or perhaps dual origin for superpowers, it adds a feel of consistancy in my opinion.

[Christopher]

Re: No magic?

 

Actually' date=' I can understand this from a world-creator point of view. Magic is simply a particular method of handwaving.[/quote']

I don't see any more logic in saying "He is from Krypton, a planet with a Red sun. So he has superpowers under a Yellow sun."

 

It carries certain flavors and possibilities with it that the OP is clearly not interested in. And what sets Magic apart from High-tech' date=' Mutant or Mentalist effect types is that Magic cannot be clearly defined. There are hundreds of different traditions in the real world alone, much less those you could add from fiction or make up.[/quote']

So far all suprmagic source materials point to one thing: Tradition is irrelevant. Magic is Magic is Magic, no matter how your Supermage has learned to manipulate it. Also note the extreme absense of Limitations in Superheroic mages (at Tops we have incantations). Not mandatory/unavoidable Limitations like "Gestures, OAF Wizards Staff, Concentration" and then some more for the most power full ones.

In superheroics the tradition is flavor/background at worst, inspiration for effects at best.

 

In my world Aliens do not exist. Space travel is limited to just beyond current levels due to super technology and we have not met anybody yet.

 

Any written hero or villain with an alien concept either does not exist or is either a funny looking mutant or accident concept etc. Back stories have to be altered but sometimes they are not needed to be known. Its easy to change an alien to a mutant, tech or even a magic using one.

 

It is probably a similar sort of thing. I do not like aliens. I do not want to have to think of the infinate possibilities of hundred of different races that exist in Champions / DC / Marvel etc and what they are doing and why they do not invade in force or just "nuke the planet from orbit".

When you main problem is, as you say "think of the infinate possibilities of hundred of different races" why do you generally forbid them? Why not simply say "you can, but simply make certain I don't have to worry why they [or their enemies] aren't invading next week".

 

I once tried to make a Alien PC as Mutant/Mad Scientists Genetic experiment. The problem is that there is more to them than just their Powers and Distinctive Features. The difference is that they have an Alien Culture. And you can't translate all of a Culture (inlculding their specific tech flavor) to a simple Mutantion/Genetic Experiment.

 

The same is true for time travellers. It's one thing to say "I don't want to deal with characters having time travel powers or with time travel availible on a broad scale" and another to say "no time travellers".

Just take the original Martian Manhunter Origin:

[...]who is pulled to earth by an experimental teleportation beam [...] constructed by Dr. Saul Erdel. [...] The shock of the encounter kills Dr. Erdel and leaves J'onn with no method of returning home

Alien with Alien culture: Check.

No Problems with Alien Invasions/relationships: Check.

 

The biggest problem is where do you draw the line. Would you accept a "Psonic" character with a nearly Cosmic Vpp powered by drawing on "psionic lifeforce" of the universe or the like? What would make that different from magic except in technically?

This is exaclty why I asked first: "What do you mean by magic?"

There is the Hero Systm Special Effect.

The various definitions on the Wikipedia (most of them have nothing to do with Magic, the Special Effect or supernatural Phenomenon)

There is the Magic in Marvel Universe

The one in the DC Universe

A lot others in a lot of different settings.

[dmjalund]

Re: No magic?

 

One possible solution to the magic problem, is to - ironically - define magic. determine what principles it is based on and what can and can't be done with it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: No magic?

 

I'm not a big fan of comic book style magic either and I don't think banning it from your setting will have any major repercussion. Like with characters' date=' sometimes the limitations in a setting give it more flavor. It's not any different from saying all superpowers must stem from inborn mutations or from a common event (Aberrant, for example which also has No Magic). The biggest problem is where do you draw the line. Would you accept a "Psonic" character with a nearly Cosmic Vpp powered by drawing on "psionic lifeforce" of the universe or the like? What would make that different from magic except in technically?[/quote']

 

Well, I'm not sure I'd buy 'psionic lifeforce' as an origin, either, without some serious explanation. But there a LOT of things spellcasters do that I wouldn't really consider kosher for a mentalist.

 

(As a tangential note, nobody else in my group except my wife knows the first thing about building HERO characters, so I have to do it. And there's nobody in the group who could use a VPP without slowing the game down to a crawl, so I'd never give them one.)

[phoenix240]

Re: No magic?

 

Well, I'm not sure I'd buy 'psionic lifeforce' as an origin, either, without some serious explanation. But there a LOT of things spellcasters do that I wouldn't really consider kosher for a mentalist.

 

(As a tangential note, nobody else in my group except my wife knows the first thing about building HERO characters, so I have to do it. And there's nobody in the group who could use a VPP without slowing the game down to a crawl, so I'd never give them one.)

 

Well, that was a hypothetical example. My point was more that it can be very difficult to draw a line between "Magic" and other sfx (Psionics, "Cosmic Power", etc). Super Powers break real world physics over their knee just by existing. Where is the Psychokinetic getting all the energy required to life tons with his mind or rearrange matter on a molecular level, for example. I'm not saying you can't ban specific sfx, not by any means but it really doesn't make things anymore "realistic" and can lead to some contention among players as it hard to define. I've run into it in my "no magic" games. Some players take any restriction as a challenge and will try to push things as much as possible.

 

That said, I say go for it. There are several supers settings without "magic" as such. Either its defined as incredibly advanced weird tech or just doesn't exist.(The Aberrant setting doesn't have Magic per se or really advanced tech either. Its all just props from Quantum/reality manipulation powers).