Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

[new skill]: Background Skill ("BS").

 

A BS is a catch-all skill that represents everything a character would logically be able to do or know based on the character's background.

 

Basically, BS is a gathering of all Background Skills (KS, PS, SS, TF, WF...) into one skill. Any activity that can be performed by a non-Background Skill (i.e., all Agility, Intellect, Combat, & Interaction Skills) is not covered under the BS rubric, and must actually be bought in order to be performed (e.g., BS: "Ninja" does not provide Concealment, Stealth, Shadowing, etc.).

 

Otherwise, BS goes a long way (e.g., BS: "Ninja" does provide KS:"Ninjas I've Known", AK:"My Old Ninja Home", WF:"Throwing Ninja Stars", etc.).

 

 

~ Mister E

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

[new skill]: Background Skill ("BS").

 

A BS is a catch-all skill that represents everything a character would logically be able to do or know based on the character's background.

 

Basically, BS is a gathering of all Background Skills (KS, PS, SS, TF, WF...) into one skill. Any activity that can be performed by a non-Background Skill (i.e., all Agility, Intellect, Combat, & Interaction Skills) is not covered under the BS rubric, and must actually be bought in order to be performed (e.g., BS: "Ninja" does not provide Concealment, Stealth, Shadowing, etc.).

 

Otherwise, BS goes a long way (e.g., BS: "Ninja" does provide KS:"Ninjas I've Known", AK:"My Old Ninja Home", WF:"Throwing Ninja Stars", etc.).

 

 

~ Mister E

I have to agree, that PS/KS/SS/AS are a little too granular IMO. PS may be distinct enough from AS/SS/KS to be separate, but the other ones have their own separate category of skill. Rather just a paragraph in the rules stating what having Knowledge of an Area/Subject/Science means and be done with it.

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

[new skill]: Background Skill ("BS").

That shortsing is misunderstanable.

 

Regarding granularity:

KS: is book knowledge. "Knows about the History"

PS: praktical knowledge. "Can work in the job".

SS: Desgin new things.

 

Examples (programming):

The Intelect Skill is Hacking. Has no direct link to programming.

 

KS-Only: Can tell you that C lead to C with Classes wich led to C++ and wich years. Maybe that Unix and C where always close togehter. Can't programm for his life. He might even know that C++ is a "statically typed, free-form, multi-paradigm, compiled, general-purpose programming language."

 

PS-Only: Can Programm. Has no idea when wich Language was developed or on what it is based. He also has no Skill at planning something from zero. Needs someone to tell him what to programm.

 

SS-Only: He can plan things. And he can write them down in pseudo-code. He writes Databases in Entity-Relationship Diagramms. He still needs someone with PS to do the actual work.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

That shortsing is misunderstanable.

 

Regarding granularity:

KS: is book knowledge. "Knows about the History"

PS: praktical knowledge. "Can work in the job".

SS: Desgin new things.

 

Examples (programming):

The Intelect Skill is Hacking. Has no direct link to programming.

 

KS-Only: Can tell you that C lead to C with Classes wich led to C++ and wich years. Maybe that Unix and C where always close togehter. Can't programm for his life. He might even know that C++ is a "statically typed, free-form, multi-paradigm, compiled, general-purpose programming language."

 

PS-Only: Can Programm. Has no idea when wich Language was developed or on what it is based. He also has no Skill at planning something from zero. Needs someone to tell him what to programm.

 

SS-Only: He can plan things. And he can write them down in pseudo-code. He writes Databases in Entity-Relationship Diagramms. He still needs someone with PS to do the actual work.

 

That delineates the differences between KS, PS, and SS well, but in the real world people rarely learn subjects like that. There tends to be a blend of practical and theoretical for most subjects that fall into the gray area between skills catagories (certainly Plumber is pretty solidly a PS, while Victorian Poetry is certainly a KS, but most technological skills are a bit slippery). You could fix that by saying that your hacker should buy the KS, PS, and SS to cover all the bases, but that seems like a ridiculous number of points spent on a simple background skill. That is why I would advocate GM flexibility on what exactly a KS, PS, or SS can let you do.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

That is why I would advocate GM flexibility on what exactly a KS' date=' PS, or SS can let you do.[/quote']

 

I really don't split hairs on this type of stuff at all. Most of the time, it's not even relevant in actual play.

 

So long as they are appropriate to the characters background, I tend to assume characters have all the skills necessary to do their jobs. Skills they spend points on are the skills they either truly excel at or that they want to see highlighted in their stories.

 

Lets say we have two characters, both of whom are described as medical doctors and both of whom have Paramedics 14-. But one of them has PS: Doctor 14- and the other only has KS: Medicine 14-

 

As a GM I will tend to assume that they are functionally equal in almost all tasks. Sure, PS: Doctor Dude might have more experience in the field or a better bedside manner, while KS: Medicine Man might know about more obscure diseases or strange medical mysteries

 

But they both can treat sick and injured patients equally well.

 

For the most part, the difference between the PS and KS breaks down to character quirks and flavor text. It's not like I'm ever going to tell Doctor Dude that he can't tell me when the vaccine for small pox was developed just because he didn't purchase KS: Medicine.

 

Mechanically, the only differences that really show up come down to complimentary skill bonuses and perhaps when I make a character roll.

 

We tend to skip a lot of background skill rolls unless it's particularly difficult or dramatically appropriate...

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I think the biggest problem with Background Skills (& hence, why the above "BS" solution appeals to me) is that Background Skills are all you need.

 

With Background Skills (mostly PS) you can do anything most of the other regular skills can do (virtually all, excluding special cases like Combat Skills & Skill Levels).

 

[example]: Replacing Agility Skills (w/ Background Skills [specifically, PSs])

 

Acrobatics (PS: Circus Acrobat)

Breakfall (PS: Movie Stuntman)

Climbing (PS: Mountain Climber)

Combat Driving (PS: Road Warrior)

Combat Piloting (PS: Fighter Pilot)

Contortionist (PS: Escape Artist)

Fast Draw (PS: Gunslinger)

Lockpicking (PS: Locksmith)

Riding (PS: Cowboy)

Sleight Of Hand (PS: Stage Magician)

Stealth (PS: Wizard's Burglar)

Teamwork (PS: American Football Quarterback)

 

If you are an awesome circus acrobat (w/ PS: Circus Acrobat 18-) taking the Acrobatics Agility Skill is redundant. All you are doing is giving yourself a Complimentary Roll for your profession.

 

That being the case, Analyze:"Acrobatic Technique/Style" is WAY-WAY superior to the actual Agility Skill: Acrobatics.

 

For the most part' date=' the difference between the PS and KS breaks down to character quirks and flavor text.[/quote']

 

I would take this one step further & say that all Background Skills are better (more powerful) than all Agility, Intellect, & Interaction Skills, due to the potential added character quirks & flavor text (literally all, in both cases).

 

One thing that limits Background Skills are the nebulous distinctions we make between types of knowledge, professions, & sciences (classically understood descriptive forms of wisdom, ethically prescriptive practices, & modern methods of inquiry... respectively).

 

The only real other thing that limits Background Skills (PS: Circus Acrobat) is the arbitrary & unstated understanding that if another Skill (Acrobatics) exists, then the other skill (not the Background Skill) ought to be used as the primary skill (as determined by the GM) for Complimentary Skill Rolls.

 

SS: Design new things.

 

[rhetorical question]: Which is more powerful: 1) PS:"Coconut Weaponizer" (alone), or 2) Inventor, the Intellect Skill (likewise, alone)?

 

[Answer]: Technically, PS:"Coconut Weaponizer" is more powerful.

 

Why?

 

Because, according to the rules, Inventor is useless (i.e., powerless) w/o "related skills" (like PS:"Coconut Weaponizer").

 

Whereas, PS:"Coconut Weaponizer" is ready to go right away (some assembly required... coconut of opportunity not included ).

 

 

 

~ Mister E ("... a Coconut Weaponizer that specializes in inventing coconut weapons... NOT an Inventor that specializes in weaponizing coconuts.")

 

[edit]:

 

The Intelect Skill is Hacking. Has no direct link to programming.

 

Coconut Hacking? =D

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

That delineates the differences between KS' date=' PS, and SS well, but in the real world people rarely learn subjects like that. There tends to be a blend of practical and theoretical for most subjects that fall into the gray area between skills [...']

Sorry, but: No.

It would be ideal if that was the chase. But for most part that simply isn't the chase.

I am a programmer. I am a very good programmer (PS at the Limit). I somewhat lack in the planing department (SS Skill low, maybe 8-. 11- tops.). I have no idea about wich langauge depends on wich one, when they were developed and I can guess what half of the descriptors mean (I have to look that up in wikipedia).

 

I don't need to be awsome in history, to be good in my job. And frankly most "learned" workes only have the PS, with no idea of KS or SS. And I think as long as nobody measures my ability to do my job by my knowledge of "Programming and Computer History", i doubt my lack of KS will be a problem.

 

So long as they are appropriate to the characters background' date=' I tend to assume characters have all the skills necessary to do their jobs. Skills they spend points on are the skills they either truly excel at or that they want to see highlighted in their stories.[/quote']

My ideal game has a simple rule:

"You can write wichever Backgroudn Skill you like for 0 cost. Only if you want it to play a mayor role in game or you find a lot of uses it has to cost cahracter points".

 

With Background Skills (mostly PS) you can do anything most of the other regular skills can do (virtually all, excluding special cases like Combat Skills & Skill Levels).

 

[example]: Replacing Agility Skills (w/ Background Skills [specifically, PSs])

 

Acrobatics (PS: Circus Acrobat)

Breakfall (PS: Movie Stuntman)

Climbing (PS: Mountain Climber)

Combat Driving (PS: Road Warrior)

Combat Piloting (PS: Fighter Pilot)

Contortionist (PS: Escape Artist)

Fast Draw (PS: Gunslinger)

Lockpicking (PS: Locksmith)

Riding (PS: Cowboy)

Sleight Of Hand (PS: Stage Magician)

Stealth (PS: Wizard's Burglar)

Teamwork (PS: American Football Quarterback)

I would say each of thsoe professions require the right tools for the job. The same way a PS is not als KS and SS.

Circus Acrobat: Not without studying it in, not without "Circus Acrobat tools".

PS Locksmith: Not able to pick a lock without his tools.

 

As much as I dislike it's armor concept, D&D had it "right" with the Professional Skills*: There are a way to make money. In limited way there are a complimentary roll (nothing more than a +1 in hero). But there are clearly not a competition for the Real skills.

 

*However, the cost could have been lower. A halving wouldn't have hurt.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I think the biggest problem with Background Skills (& hence' date=' why the above "BS" [i']solution[/i] appeals to me) is that Background Skills are all you need.

 

With Background Skills (mostly PS) you can do anything most of the other regular skills can do (virtually all, excluding special cases like Combat Skills & Skill Levels).

 

 

I am pretty sure that the rules state you can't use a background skill in place of a named skill that has the same effect. PS: Locksmith lets you work on locks, but you can't pick them without Lockpicking. Background skills can be complimentary to named skills, but they can't replace them.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Sorry, but: No.

It would be ideal if that was the chase. But for most part that simply isn't the chase.

I am a programmer. I am a very good programmer (PS at the Limit). I somewhat lack in the planing department (SS Skill low, maybe 8-. 11- tops.). I have no idea about wich langauge depends on wich one, when they were developed and I can guess what half of the descriptors mean (I have to look that up in wikipedia).

 

Okay, well in your experience that may be the case, but the engineering courses I have taken have mixed the theoretical and practical, with just a smattering of historical. Our educational experiences were obviously different; I would be curious to know what the predominate teaching/learning style is. But I don't have KS: History of Teaching Paradigms.

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I would say each of thsoe professions require the right tools for the job. The same way a PS is not als KS and SS.

Circus Acrobat: Not without studying it in, not without "Circus Acrobat tools".

PS Locksmith: Not able to pick a lock without his tools.

 

"We have the tools, & we have the talent!" (Winston, the 4th Ghost-Buster)

 

For instance, without proton-packs & ghost-traps, the job of busting a ghost is (ought to be) a lot harder... if the GM reduced busting a ghost down to a single simple PS:Ghost-Buster Roll.

 

Obviously, environmental conditions are a factor, too.

 

However, I would consider waving the proper (i.e., otherwise necessary) tools/environment for a job, if the character was attempting an Extraordinary PS Roll (if the PC had at least an 18- w/ the PS & was being penalized at least -10 pts on the roll).

 

They are a way to make money.

 

Which makes the Money Perk a potential way to judge exactly how good (N)PCs are at their jobs. =P

 

In limited way there are a complimentary roll (nothing more than a +1 in hero). But there are clearly not a competition for the Real skills.

 

"Real" Skills have special rules. If nothing else, they should be used as an index of rules for how skills work in HERO.

 

imho, having special rules is the biggest difference between Background Skills & "real" Skills.

 

In contrast to "real" Skills, individual Background Skills have been poorly problematized. Using Background Skills (in ways other than as Complimentary Skill Rolls) highlights the fact that they are (at least they can be) more complex than their rules would lead you to believe.

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I am pretty sure that the rules state you can't use a background skill in place of a named skill that has the same effect. PS: Locksmith lets you work on locks' date=' but you can't pick them without Lockpicking. Background skills can be complimentary to named skills, but they can't replace them.[/quote']

 

I'm not so sure about that.

 

Consider an anti-Electronics PC built w/ only the following Backgrounds Skills:

 

PS: Electrician

SS: Electrical Engineering

KS: Electronic Systems

 

The PC is an Electrician. That alone ought to provide the PC w/o the ability to do (w/ the right tools, in the right environment) everything the Electronics Intellect Skill allows a PC to do... and make money doing it. Otherwise, PS: Electrician really is just a fluffy Complimentary Skill Roll to Electronics that is taking points away from Electronics.

 

The PC is an Electrical Engineer, too. That, likewise, ought to provide the PC w/o the ability to do everything Analyze & Inventor can do. Otherwise, SS: Electrical Engineering suffers from the same problem (i.e., of being a character point "sink") that PS: Electrician suffers from.

 

The PC knows a number of Electronic Systems. That is above & beyond the kind of recall you should expect from making a standard INT roll to know something (abducting broadly from life experience, presumably). Otherwise...

 

Christopher]My ideal game has a simple rule:

"You can write wichever Backgroudn Skill you like for 0 cost. Only if you want it to play a mayor role in game or you find a lot of uses it has to cost cahracter points".

 

Which deflates the value of Background Skills entirely.

 

At this point, I think of them more as non-traditional "Complications" than anything else.

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

PS: Electrician

SS: Electrical Engineering

KS: Electronic Systems

 

The PC is an Electrician. That alone ought to provide the PC w/o the ability to do (w/ the right tools, in the right environment) everything the Electronics Intellect Skill allows a PC to do... and make money doing it. Otherwise, PS: Electrician really is just a fluffy Complimentary Skill Roll to Electronics that is taking points away from Electronics.

Electronics is a 3 point Skill that costs +2 per +1 on the throw.

Thoses skills costs 2 point each (1 if you have a skill enhancerns affecting them) and 1 per +1 each (or you take 3 point Skill Levels, wich comes out as the same).

 

So yes, this combination of three Backgroudn Skills could replace the Real Skill. They cost more (1.5 to 2 times), after all.

[Christopher]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Okay' date=' well in your experience that may be the case, but the engineering courses I have taken have mixed the theoretical and practical, with just a smattering of historical. Our educational experiences were obviously different; I would be curious to know what the predominate teaching/learning style is. But I don't have KS: History of Teaching Paradigms.[/quote']

Where do you have thsoes courses?

or simpler: Are you studying them in a Unversity, do you get a non-university 3.5 Year Training or do you recieve on the Job training?

[Lucius]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/43940-The-Professions-of-Arms?p=1030976#post1030976

 

The so-called “background skills” all too often fade into the background and disappear.

A character will start with a profession skill, or knowledge skill, because it’s in a “package deal” or just because you get one free, and then that skill languishes, ignored by player and Game Operations Director alike. But “Background” doesn’t have to mean “invisible.” Indeed, an appropriately complex, realistically detailed, and above all interesting background enriches paintings, photographs, novels….and characters.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

PS: Palindromedary Rider, KS: Palindromedaries, Transport Familiarity: Palindromedary....

[Silverhawk]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I am pretty sure that the rules state you can't use a background skill in place of a named skill that has the same effect. PS: Locksmith lets you work on locks' date=' but you can't pick them without Lockpicking. Background skills can be complimentary to named skills, but they can't replace them.[/quote']

 

Interestingly this piece on emergency Locksmiths on the Today Show yesterday (11/16), had a professional Locksmith who could pick locks and stated that most true professionals should be able to pick the particular lock that they were using for the piece.

 

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I'm not so sure about that.

 

Consider an anti-Electronics PC built w/ only the following Backgrounds Skills:

 

PS: Electrician

SS: Electrical Engineering

KS: Electronic Systems

 

The PC is an Electrician. That alone ought to provide the PC w/o the ability to do (w/ the right tools, in the right environment) everything the Electronics Intellect Skill allows a PC to do... and make money doing it. Otherwise, PS: Electrician really is just a fluffy Complimentary Skill Roll to Electronics that is taking points away from Electronics.

 

The PC is an Electrical Engineer, too. That, likewise, ought to provide the PC w/o the ability to do everything Analyze & Inventor can do. Otherwise, SS: Electrical Engineering suffers from the same problem (i.e., of being a character point "sink") that PS: Electrician suffers from.

 

The PC knows a number of Electronic Systems. That is above & beyond the kind of recall you should expect from making a standard INT roll to know something (abducting broadly from life experience, presumably). Otherwise...

 

 

 

Which deflates the value of Background Skills entirely.

 

At this point, I think of them more as non-traditional "Complications" than anything else.

 

Yes, you could build the anti-electronics character, but it wouldn't be book-legal. 6e1 page 62 specifically states the GM should not allow Background Skills to replace named skills. You can use them as complimentary skills, but PS: Paramedic does not grant you the Paramedic skill.

 

The way to keep Background skills from being fluff is to be generous with the complimentary skill rolls. If a 3 point background skill gives an automatic +1 to a related roll, then it is nearly as good as just putting points into the skill itself, plus you round the character out. You could have a doctor character with just a high Paramedic roll, but how much better if he has Scholar with KS: Medicine, KS: Anatomy, and KS: Pathogens?

 

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Where do you have thsoes courses?

or simpler: Are you studying them in a Unversity, do you get a non-university 3.5 Year Training or do you recieve on the Job training?

 

I have a BS and MS from a University (Virginia Tech). I can see where college would be different from vocational school though, but I don't know by how much or what percentage of people learn in either type of institution.

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Interestingly this piece on emergency Locksmiths on the Today Show yesterday (11/16)' date=' had a professional Locksmith who could pick locks and stated that most true professionals should be able to pick the particular lock that they were using for the piece.[/quote']

 

Indeed, breaking and entering while not damaging cars is (ought to be) "par for the course" for locksmiths. Certainly, I believe it should be for my local thieves' guild's locksmiths.

 

 

~Mister E ("Support Your Local Thieves' Guild's Locksmiths!")

[Mister E]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Yes' date=' you could build the anti-electronics character, but it wouldn't be book-legal. 6e1 page 62 specifically states the GM should not allow Background Skills to replace named skills. You can use them as complimentary skills, but PS: Paramedic does not grant you the Paramedic skill.[/quote']

 

Good. That keeps "real" Skills & Background Skills distinct from each other.

 

However, based on SFX, I would allow both PS: Electrician or Electronics to help INT out w/ Complimentary Skill Rolls to attempt up to 5 active pts worth of Dispel Barrier w/ a -11 Extraordinary "Characteristic" Roll penalty, in order to open an electronic lock (that was built as a Barrier that could be impossibly hacked in just such a way;)).

 

On that note, I would allow STR to attempt practically the same Power if the occasion seemed appropriate.

 

The way to keep Background skills from being fluff is to be generous with the complimentary skill rolls. If a 3 point background skill gives an automatic +1 to a related roll' date=' then it is nearly as good as just putting points into the skill itself, plus you round the character out. You could have a doctor character with just a high Paramedic roll, but how much better if he has Scholar with KS: Medicine, KS: Anatomy, and KS: Pathogens?[/quote']

 

Analyze pwns all others as a Complimentary Skill. The only thing limiting Analyze is that there is only one Analyze... oh, wait, no there isn't!

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

I've always seen Professional Skills as ways to fill in the gaps in the normal, or adventuring skills, list. There's no skill for accounting, so if you want to be an accountant, you take PS: Accountant.

 

When an adventuring skill overlaps with a profession, such as Paramedics or Lockpicking, then the PS gives you the additional background knowledge to perform the adventuring skill in a professional capacity. In those overlap cases, if you want your character to be someone who also practices the profession, you need the PS. For example: The Good Samaritan has taken Paramedics to reflect having gone through First Responder training so that he can help at accident scenes or other emergency situations. The Chiropractor has Paramedics, but also has PS: Chiropractor so that he can run his chiropractic business, including long term care strategies, health care regulations, dealing with patients, etc.

 

A PS should never be able to replace an adventuring skill. Real world knowledge doesn't enter into it, only campaign usefulness. The adventuring skill list are (or should be) all skills that have enough importance to a campaign to be bought at the normal price point. By definition, the background skills are worth less, because they have less impact on the game. If you inflate them to have the same impact as one of the primary skills, then you need to raise the cost as well. In general, the adventuring skills should be more broad in scope, and the background skills used to narrow the scope (i.e., complimentary rolls), or for smaller scope (PS: Surgeon can perform surgery, but a Paramedics roll can't, but how often do we play Surgery Hero?) situations.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Re: Analyze: Didn't Analyze grow out of the old Ninja Hero Analyze Style skill? If that's the case, that'd explain why most of the text for it covers its combat application.

[Beast]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Demolitions would be my choice on the finding a weakness in a building with 6th ed

anything else use Find Weakness the Talent

 

this if you are trying to bring the building down

for me the KS or Analyze are more for building it up but could work on bringing it down at say a -1 or -2 to the skill roll

[Silverhawk]

Re: Analyze Structure vs KS Architecture

 

Demolitions would be my choice on the finding a weakness in a building with 6th ed

anything else use Find Weakness the Talent

 

this if you are trying to bring the building down

for me the KS or Analyze are more for building it up but could work on bringing it down at say a -1 or -2 to the skill roll

 

I concur on the need to have Demolitions to bring down a structure be it a building, bridge, etc. Any KS or PS that a character has should allow for modifiers on the roll or if there is a limited amount of explosives for efficient placement.

 

I base some of this on aspects of my job that brings me in contact with former Navy EOD persons discussing the "How much explosive would..." type questions.