Shadowsoul Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 For a future project I'm planning to create Package Deals and Powers for a series of unusual types of adventurers. Including a Leonardo Da Vinci style Inventor class. My question is. What kind of weapons could be made using clockwork in a Fantasy world, without using magic? They don't have to be practical enought to have been used in real life, but they should be practical enough that you could get away with using them in a High Fantasy world. I'm assuming that clockwork automata could not be used as soldiers or androids without the intervention of magic as it would be too expensive to make ones which have complex enough behaviours to actually 'fight' people. I suppose a clockwork golem could just walk towards people and smash them. My main idea so far is the 'Thresher'. A clockwork mechanism is attached to a large steel shield or wall, several metres wide, a series of sword blades, axeheads or scythe blades stick out from the front of the shield and sweep back and forth or up and down with mechanically enhanced force. The whole device is wheeled and must either be pushed be soldiers walking behind it or have its wheels run off the clockwork 'engine'. The Thresher is used to break up the enemy line, by crashing into it and chewing up anyone who gets in its way. It can also be used to clear narrow passages such as city streets or breaches in castle walls, forcing the enemy to retreat or die while protecting the soldiers behind it. Does anyone have any other ideas or thoughts on this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Cool idea. I'd like to see your final implementation of DaVinci tech. These things are all powered solely by wind. They're lightweight...maybe too lightweight to actually work using Renaissance level materials, but even with heavier materials, clockwork and wind power should be able to push them along and scare the crap out of some less-than-elite soldiers. I know DaVinci himself designed some pretty amazing clockworks with programmable behavior. If your clockwork inventor wanted to put in the time and research, he could build a mechanism that would move quickly up to a guard post, slow down and deliver some rapid stabbing/chopping/shooting (either incapacitating or driving away said guards) then move on, turning corners on a pre-programmed schedule, to attack the next place. Building reaction capabilities in rather than just pre-programming the fighting and/or navigation should be possible as well, although more complex. I think some of the best uses for realistic clockworks, though, would be assisting human crews. A clockwork siege engine could run itself up to the wall rather than needing horses or men to push it. I could easily imagine a clockwork gun crew that uses the recoil of the cannon as power to swab the barrel, measure and ram the powder, and load the ball, so the human crew only has to aim and fire. A clockwork gun carriage could harness the recoil to wind springs up so the cannon doesn't even need horses to pull it...the gunner could mount up, throw the brake off, and drive it away if the enemy got too close, or if the gun needed to be repositioned closer to the enemy. Some of these heavier-duty machines would be pretty dangerous if they became damaged, though. A cannonball crashing into a cannon with automated gun crew and carriage would release a whole lot of tension from the springs, and probably seriously injure anyone standing nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! why not start with Leo's Helicoptor and glider wings for observation and bombing the enemy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! A sword or axe with a clockwork-driven haft that increases the leverage applied to the business end on a downswing. This may involve an integrated gauntlet. A weapon with a can opener-like blade that can be used to pry open armor or drill into a target. An extensible weapon that gives a reach advantage. A shield with a sawtoothed, bladed edge driven by clockwork. Or a pincerlike shield that traps and crushes opponents' weapons (and limbs). A helm with assorted lenses and prisms that can magnify, enhance light, or provide a 360˚ field of vision. Pushing the envelope a bit, clockwork magic could be used to create mechanized creatures that could be used as drones, e.g. for surveillance or possible attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Armor with clockwork strength augmentation (although likely it should include some -DEX or -SPD or -OCV or something to reflect that it is "clunky" or "cumbersome.") Non-intelligent Automatons, ranging from the simple and entertaining (google "bluebird pistol"), to complex and terrifying (Leonardo's clockwork Knight, IIRC), but as stated above, giving them any kind of intelligence or ability to respond to various external stimuli is going to be almost impossible without crossing the bridge over to "magic." Basically, think wind-up toys with lots of sharp, pointy bits - wind them up, point them in the general direction of the enemy, and watch them... be completely avoided by anyone with half a brain, or watch them hack those without half a brain who try to attack them into ribbons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! If we go back further than Da Vinci, the ancient Greeks had several war machines that could be of interest: Archimedes' death ray and iron claw, the Helepolis siege tower and drill, various types of catapults, and so on. You could also build out clockwork versions of Icarus' wings and Talos, the bronze colossus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Do they have gun powder yet? I'm seeing fantasy bob-omb... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostDancer Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! why not start with Leo's Helicoptor and glider wings for observation and bombing the enemy Another Observer idea could be swiped from WWII Germans, who used manned kites towed by submarine, as seen at the Dayton, Ohio Air Force Museum. The manned Observer kite could be towed by coach, instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Maybe you should go look at the Clockwork and Chivalry (website here) stuff - an alternate English Civil War where the Royalists took up alchemy to gain a march while the Parliamentarians turned to clockwork mechanisation. Is a decent background to game in and the clockwork ideas should be eminently stealable... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Non-intelligent Automatons, ranging from the simple and entertaining (google "bluebird pistol"), to complex and terrifying (Leonardo's clockwork Knight, IIRC), but as stated above, giving them any kind of intelligence or ability to respond to various external stimuli is going to be almost impossible without crossing the bridge over to "magic." Basically, think wind-up toys with lots of sharp, pointy bits - wind them up, point them in the general direction of the enemy, and watch them... be completely avoided by anyone with half a brain, or watch them hack those without half a brain who try to attack them into ribbons. For the most part, probably so, but I'm sure if Davinci could design the workable clockworks he did, someone in a fantasy world could build a machine that could travel a particular path (maybe with some mechanism to help overcome navigational errors, like a bump-and-go toy car) and deploy its flesh-pureeing array of axeheads, flails, and blades at a particular point to catch anyone trapped in the room with it. It could even use them to beat down the door to get in after its intended victim. Hitting the front of it could cause a plate to go from "fast movement, no weapons" mode to "slow movement, wall of death" mode for a length of time (long enough to kill or scare away the defender). Side plates could cause it to veer in that direction and deploy weapons for a short period before moving back on its original track. All these mods don't amount to artificial intelligence, but would make something pretty fearsome. Clever characters could really mess it up, even if it's too well-armored to damage...making it swerve off the side of a bridge will be more its "chase attackers/get back on track" programming can overcome, but that just makes it more fun, IMO. The real problem with doing realistic clockworks is how realistic you want to be with it. If they're not clunky enough or too organic, they feel more magical than clockwork. If they're too realistic, you're pretty much stuck with toys, however interesting. My advice is to make any reactions the machine is capable of on its own (without human operator/crew) very mechanistic...doing the same exact movement every time, but pretty much ignore power requirements. Clockworks that are useful for any kind of heavy duty application just aren't feasible with medieval level spring steel. Allowing the magic of strong, lightweight materials opens up all kinds of possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsoul Posted January 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far. Some very interesting ideas, (and a few frightening ones). I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of the materials which might be available to inventors in a Fantasy setting. It could lead to some interesting adventures e.g. An inventor hires the party to raid a nearby band of Dark Elves and steal as much of their armour and weaponry as possible, because Dark Elf equipment makes great springs once you melt it down and reforge it. How would people respond to inventors in a Fantasy setting? Would they be feared? Lumped in with the magic users? Or respected and sought after? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Ever watch one of the Mythbusters episodes involving arrows? Their launch mechanism of choice is two high speed spinning wheels. Good clockworks could easily allow for Heavy Metal style full auto dart guns. Also, weren't the first targeting systems clockwork mechanisms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far. Some very interesting ideas, (and a few frightening ones). I'm particularly intrigued by the idea of the materials which might be available to inventors in a Fantasy setting. It could lead to some interesting adventures e.g. An inventor hires the party to raid a nearby band of Dark Elves and steal as much of their armour and weaponry as possible, because Dark Elf equipment makes great springs once you melt it down and reforge it. How would people respond to inventors in a Fantasy setting? Would they be feared? Lumped in with the magic users? Or respected and sought after? I think there would be a mixed reception just like there was in the real world. You would have certain groups very happy e.g. guildworkers of metalworking guilds and mines would see this as a huge advantage and new money making opportunity while others will not welcome the new competition. There will also be those that see the ability of the new technology to improve the quality of their troops without the expense of training them. Obviously the nobility do not like equalisers of any kind and so they might be hostile to this. Finally - there are the religious side. There may be those that take up a religious stance - the universe is clockwork and people should worship the Great Engineer which steps on the toes of current organised religions... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Ever watch one of the Mythbusters episodes involving arrows? Their launch mechanism of choice is two high speed spinning wheels. Good clockworks could easily allow for Heavy Metal style full auto dart guns. Also, weren't the first targeting systems clockwork mechanisms? Well, the first "targeting systems" were math, to be specific, and then various mechanisms which made said math easier. Including mechanisms like ornate, hand-cranked brass gears and marked risers or whatever that let you skip the math part and just move the dial to "200 yards" and fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Well' date=' the first "targeting systems" were [i']math[/i], to be specific, and then various mechanisms which made said math easier. Including mechanisms like ornate, hand-cranked brass gears and marked risers or whatever that let you skip the math part and just move the dial to "200 yards" and fire. Well, yeah.. I mean, the single easiest way they could have convinced my 16 year old self to study Trig would have been to mention that it was essential to historical gunnery. That said, I'm actually half recalling systems from the latter portion of the 19th Century, around about the turn of the century that I stumbled across whilst doing some research a few years back for some Space 1889 to Hero conversion stuff. It know it was back when I was looking hard at Hotchkiss revolving cannons and Nordenfeldt guns, to fix the time a bit. As I recall it was an early attempt to build basically a self adjusting gun mount, so you could target optically and click in your range estimate and the gun would set its own elevation and adjust for wind. OH, here's a fun link, just cause... http://www.navyandmarine.org/ondeck/1880DisappearingGuns.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassifiedTSBBR Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! How would people respond to inventors in a Fantasy setting? Would they be feared? Lumped in with the magic users? Or respected and sought after? My money is on "Lumped in with Magic Users", with a caveat that their magic can't be very good since they can't do it without their artifacts, & it's so much cheaper (presumably) than conventional magic. Which won't stop someone weaponising stuff & making a killing... ;P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsoul Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Do they have gun powder yet? I'm seeing fantasy bob-omb... Sorry, I never answered this question, did I? The idea for the project, (possibly an e-book if I'm very, very lucky and/or get my act together), is to create Package Deals and Powers for different kinds of unusual adventurers or heroes which can then be slotted into most Fantasy settings. So, some worlds will have gunpowder and others won't. But I have no objection to devices that use gunpowder; clockwork cannons and gatling guns are always fun. Devices like the one AmadanNaBriona linked to are also an interesting possibility. As long as it doesn't require electricity, petrol or modern munitions/fuel its probably alright. Just had another thought. The Murder Mill. A mobile windmill with sharpened blades. During windy conditions the blades turn and can slice through enemies. However, the blades are connected to various springs and wheels which store tension, (energy), and so can be turned even on a calm day. Other devices, such mechanical crossbows, secondary slashing blades and catapults can be run off the energy gathered by the turning blades. A stationary Murder Mill could use the wind power it gathers to power various clockwork traps and killing mechanisms inside it. Making it a perfect un-manned defence system for treasure etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Mark_I_Fire_Control_Computer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! My money is on "Lumped in with Magic Users", with a caveat that their magic can't be very good since they can't do it without their artifacts, & it's so much cheaper (presumably) than conventional magic. Which won't stop someone weaponising stuff & making a killing... ;P "Crazy Old Maurice, he's always good for a laugh!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! I really have to say that "clockwork" as a special effect to me strongly suggests that the primary power source is windup. Obviously, this being fantasy, the clockworks will somehow put out much more power than any windup spring could reasonably deliver. But I'm also amused by the idea of the clockmage frantically rewinding his clockwork poleaxe in combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! I really have to say that "clockwork" as a special effect to me strongly suggests that the primary power source is windup. Obviously' date=' this being fantasy, the clockworks will somehow put out much more power than any windup spring could reasonably deliver. But I'm also amused by the idea of the clockmage frantically rewinding his clockwork poleaxe in combat.[/quote'] "Clockwork" means exactly that - clockwork. Gears, pendulums, springs and coils that store kinetic energy, etc. "Wind-up" is just one way to store the initial energy. I would hazard a theory that current "clockwork" devices are inferior to those made by masters of the art in the past; a largely lost art. And some of the more phenomenal real-world examples of clockwork mechanisms from centuries past are quite amazing. http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/07/14/the-world-of-clockwork-robots/ The main difference between a "real world" clockwork automaton, and one that would be useful in an RPG, is that the real world examples all had very limited things they could do, and were slow and clunky and probably fragile. While we would want something a bit more functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! Another clockwork automaton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! I could easily see war machines and war vessels having capstan type arrangements for winding up big springs, or rowing machine style cranks. my brain is beginning to brew up some interesting designs... let me revisit this after I've pondered and it's not after 3 am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Re: Unleash The Clockworks Of War! In Clockwork and Chivalry there is a fantastic description of the Battle of Naseby where clockwork was used for the first time in a dramatic fashion. There were the Ironside cavalry and three Leviathons (Faith, Hope and Charity). The reason the Parliamentarians did not entirely succeed before the alchemists got their magic in place was that the contraptions ran out of power and were effectively stranded. Parliament has been co-opting wind and water mills to power winding stations where machines can be wound quickly and easily and, after Naseby, have devised mobile winding stations that are powered by prisoners and volunteers... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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