Utility of 4th Ed. Supplements

[argent]

As someone with a large collection of Champs 4th Ed. books, I thought I'd ask: In your opinion, which 4th Ed. books have the greatest usefulness in 5th Ed. play?

 

A couple that occur immediately to me would be Normals Unbound (one of the best supplements done during I.C.E.'s oversight), and The Mutant File (since the standard hero has been upgraded to 350 pts, some use can now be made of the preposterously high-powered villains in that book).

 

Whatcha think?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Honestly, I think all of the 4th Ed. supplements are perfectly useful in 5th Ed. play. Not that much was actually changed from 4th to 5th. Lots of stuff was added, but there's not much that invalidates anything on a 4th Ed. character sheet.

[CBikle]

Normals Unbound is still very useful as well as 4th ed. -campaign specific books like Champions Universe and Classic Organizations.

 

A lot of pre-4th ed. stuff is also pretty good like Enemies: Villainy Unbound and Enemies III (most of the characters were never reprinted elsewhere).

[Lord Liaden]

There are a host of little changes that differentiate a 4E writeup from a 5E writeup - mostly the cost of various Powers, occasionally how something is built mechanically, or what it's called - but nothing difficult to figure out. You know, we've had a few attempts at listing the changes from 4E to 5E, but now that FREd has been on the market for almost a year, many new gamers have been drawn to the system, perhaps it would be useful to summarize the changes from 5 to 4, for people who are interested in the earlier stuff.

 

As for what I consider the most continuingly useful of the 4E books, I'd have to say: Normals Unbound (really fleshes out the supporting cast for a campaign]; Watchers of the Dragon (could be subtitled "Oriental/Martial Art/Mystical Enemies"); Dark Champions (great discussion of supers-related law, organized crime, government institutions, plus tons of neat stuff to kill people with); Kingdom of Champions and Champions of the North (for reference in international games, plus interesting NPCs); Ultimate Mentalist (much of it made it into FREd, but there's still tons more material to enhance creation and use of mentalists); Ultimate Supermage (I loved Mystic Masters, but USM just has broader and deeper utility for magic-influenced or -based campaigns); VIPER (adds so much credibility to that organization, both in a stand-up fight and as a long-term world threat); PRIMUS (what Scott Bennie did for VIPER, Shelley Crystal Mactyre did for PRIMUS).

 

I'd have to add that of the non-Champions books, the second edition of Fantasy HERO continues to provide some of the best advice and guidelines yet published for running fantasy campaigns. In that regard, the new FH due out this year will have a tough act to follow.

[Acroyear]

All you need is European Enemies.

 

Oops... I better duck and hide...

[nblade]

Originally posted by Acroyear

All you need is European Enemies.

 

Oops... I better duck and hide...

 

No you don't need to hide, but I think people would love to send CLOWN after you.

[Guest cubist]

Liaden, are you sure you're really Canadian? If you liked Champions of the North, I find that hard to believe... Personally(and just my opinion, of course) I think that CotN was the biggest missed opportunity for a good book this side of European Enemies(at least I could have salvaged a few ideas from EE).

 

Enemies Unbound(although 3rd edition) is a really useful book for some great Characters (Hey Scott- how come you never did a Canda book, what with Characters like Borealis and Destiny?). The Dark Champions stuff is good for the feel of it and not everyone from Classic Enemies wa updated, making it still very important (instead of the before-now indespensible position it held).

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by cubist

Liaden, are you sure you're really Canadian? If you liked Champions of the North, I find that hard to believe... Personally(and just my opinion, of course) I think that CotN was the biggest missed opportunity for a good book this side of European Enemies(at least I could have salvaged a few ideas from EE).

 

(Checks passport and birth certificate) Yup, I'm Canadian.

 

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, which I respect. For my part, I found Champions of the North to be a good primer on the country; I learned a few things myself. A lot of the potential for adventures in Canada was well discussed, and the characters were interesting and original, with an understated Canadian flavor. Sure, I would have done a few things differently: left more room for government-independent superheroes; given the country a more in-depth treatment (but we can't be sure how much the editor cut); picked up on a few missed opportunities (I can't believe the author didn't include Montreal's world-famous Comedy Festival when he described that city - just the thing for CLOWN to crash). On the whole, though, I thought it was very well done.

 

I've seen other posters who were very fond of CotN, while most of those who aren't disliked it for the characters' low power level. IMHO that's a rather weak criticism: it's pretty easy to increase characters' Damage Classes, Defenses, Skill Levels etc. until they're at the power level you want - much easier than trying to cut down overpowered characters.

 

Originally posted by cubist

Enemies Unbound(although 3rd edition) is a really useful book for some great Characters (Hey Scott- how come you never did a Canda book, what with Characters like Borealis and Destiny?). The Dark Champions stuff is good for the feel of it and not everyone from Classic Enemies wa updated, making it still very important (instead of the before-now indespensible position it held).

 

Third and earlier editions of Champions is a whole other post in itself; I left them out because argent was asking about 4E, but I'd be happy to talk about them. I agree that Classic Enemies still has much to recommend it, not the least of which is the detailed writeup of Stronghold. I actually like having access to the earlier writeups of characters revised in CKC, as they may contain elements that I'd prefer to apply to the new versions. For example, I find the origin of Firewing in CE to be much more compelling than the one in CKC (and that Pat Zircher costume is the bomb!)

 

I think that Scott Bennie is Canadian himself, and if so he'd certainly be my first suggestion for author of an updated Canadian Champions sourcebook. But Borealis? I'm afraid that's where he and I part company. Don't get me wrong, Borealis is a great design with a swell origin. But a radically nationalist Canadian? Quebecois maybe, but from English Canada I just can't see it.

[tenebre]

i love the ultimate mentalist

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by cubist

Liaden, are you sure you're really Canadian? If you liked Champions of the North, I find that hard to believe... Personally(and just my opinion, of course) I think that CotN was the biggest missed opportunity for a good book this side of European Enemies(at least I could have salvaged a few ideas from EE).

 

Enemies Unbound(although 3rd edition) is a really useful book for some great Characters (Hey Scott- how come you never did a Canda book, what with Characters like Borealis and Destiny?).

 

I was scheduled to do it, and then Rob Bell and I crossed wires and I ended up getting my second choice, which was VIPER.

 

Scott Bennie

[Acroyear]

Well, Viper is probably more used than COTN in most campaigns.

 

I liked COTN, though.

[RDU Neil]

I still use VIPER to this day, though would love to see the whole thing just updated.

 

I also liked CotN. As someone said, it was excellent for providing supporting cast that didn't over shadow the PCs. Heck, a main PC ended up marrying Oracle/Karen after a while.

 

We did used to joke about the claim that the Canadian Sentinels defeated Eurostar, though. We said, "Ok... there must have been 50 members at one point, and the twelve in the book are all that's left alive after the Eurostar fight."

 

Still, as Liadan (I think) said above, it's easier to ramp up power levels, than work to cut them back, like with the ridiculous Mutant File characters.

[Acroyear]

We were so put off by the crappy art and Chess themed Genocide that Mutant File went in the round file.

[RDU Neil]

We had really been looking forward to Mutant File at the time, because Storn Cook knew it was coming up... was doing the cover in fact... and Genocide was playing a significant role in the campaign. Sweet! We thought. A supplement ripe for use.

 

God it was bad. I did use some elements... but it was a struggle, and didn't really ease my work load as GM, as I hoped it would.

[Tech]

I use...

 

The following are still used in my campaign:

*2nd Ed. ENEMIES I

*2nd Ed. ENEMIES II

*ENEMIES III

*some of INTERNATIONAL ENEMIES

*some of NORMALS UNBOUND

*book with Russian teams (forgot name, had CLOWN in it)

*VIPER[/list=1]

 

I'm sure there are a few others, I just can't think of them offhand. Naturally, personally created teams/villains are part of the campaign, also.

[nblade]

Re: I use...

 

Originally posted by Tech

*book with Russian teams (forgot name, had CLOWN in it)

[/list=1]

 

I'm going to hazard a guess that it was the 4th Edition's Classic Organizations. Which does have some value.

[Tech]

Originally posted by nblade

I'm going to hazard a guess that it was the 4th Edition's Classic Organizations. Which does have some value.

 

That's the one, which brings to mind 'Classis Enemies', which I also use.

[nblade]

Originally posted by Tech

That's the one, which brings to mind 'Classis Enemies', which I also use.

 

Well many of them made it into the CKC, so it only has value if your favorite didn't make it to the CKC.

[Tech]

True. However, I prefer some of the simpler statistics, or least the pictures.

[Glen Sprigg]

I think that Scott Bennie is Canadian himself, and if so he'd certainly be my first suggestion for author of an updated Canadian Champions sourcebook. But Borealis? I'm afraid that's where he and I part company. Don't get me wrong, Borealis is a great design with a swell origin. But a radically nationalist Canadian? Quebecois maybe, but from English Canada I just can't see it.

 

As I've stated several times in the past, Borealis is the victim of propaganda spread by his arch-nemesis, Invictus. Borealis is in fact Canada's greatest hero, and the most important and powerful obstacle standing in Invictus' path to achieving Manifest Destiny and claiming Imperial rule over North America. So Invictus uses his connections (he has a LOT), and does his best to portray Borealis in a negative light. Therefore, Borealis' heroic deeds are twisted around to make him seem like an anti-American villain. Invictus even had the clout to get him written up in an Enemies book for a role-playing game as a supervillain. Now that's clout.

 

Glen

[Starcorp Man]

I'll have to add another vote in the "I liked Champions of the North," basket. I thought it had interesting takes on characters, and the low power levels allowed for improvement if you wanted it. It also presented the idea of adding points to everyman skills, which they followed up with the Fuzion champions, which I use in my campaign still.

 

Now for a long time fan of Genocide, I abhored the Mutant File, and what they did to them in 5th.

 

Other good resources, pretty much every book can be used, would just need change of cost tweaking and minor fleshing of characters, like Classic Organizations, Viper, Enemies, San Angelos.... There are very few characters you can't convert over without too much effort.

[TheEmerged]

Woot, looks like I've stumbled into the CotN fan club!

 

Personally, there are several things CotN did better than most of the supplements -- I realize I'm repeating other people a bit but let's tie 'em together shall we?

 

• Lower Power Levels. It's always easier to add a few CV or DC than remove them.
  
• Useful without overshadowing the PC's. This is related to the above but separate because it's quite easy to "short sell" a character so much they end up being cannon fodder.
  
• More interesting characters. Anybody can make Another Fire Chick. Fire Drake, on the other hand, has a job and the skills to actually perform that job (this has always been a pet peeve of mine). Several of the characters in CotN were little more than rewrites of previous characters (Leaper/Foxbat, Titanothrope/Ogre, etc) and yet with just enough of a twist to be more interesting.
  
• Better female characters than most supplements. Not that I'm going to pick on any particular supplements (High Tech Enemies, European Enemies...) but most of the female characters in CotN actually bore some resemblance to, you know, actual women. Even Ambrosia comes across better than the usual "Pinup Bait".
  

 

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RE: Normals Unbound. Actually, I'm going to dissent from some of the others here. This book is a bit of a mixed bag; some of the writeups are significantly better than others. There's a definite lack of a consistent scale with many of the writeups (Tandy West with an 8 INT is described as being more competent intellecutally than Sugar with a 10 INT, for example).

 

Having said that, at least half of this book has made guest appearances as NPC's in campaigns I've run

[Starcorp Man]

Normals Unbound was cool in that it opened up new ways to use DNPCS and Villians, I had one Character take Tandy West as a DNPC, sister and hunted by Topps. Made for interesting Role Playing, especially when impervious growing brick guy couldn't just squash him.