Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

[phoenix240]

The Master Villains poll prompted me to read several of those characters recently and sparked a thought. All of them are pretty potent forces of darkness in the Champions Universe but is there anyway they might have turned out differently? Could Dr Destroyer or Telios been heroes if fate had taken a different turn or at least a shade of gray rather than the force for darkness most of them became? What would have to change and how recognizable would the end result be. That's my challenge. Pick a Master Villain and, changing at as little as you can, make them benevolent even a hero. Of course benevolent doesn't necessarily mean "nice"...

[Christopher]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

I guess you mean this thread?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87514-Your-top-3-Master-Villains-in-the-CU-from-CV-MV-%28Volume-1%29

 

 

I'll try Mechanon:

It all began as one of his latest sheemes. He begann to re-evalute literature to figure out some new way to wipe out humanity, then it hit him: The best way, would be for humanity to see it's own error and make them smarter/more educated. Then they would of course see it as he did: That any minute organics wasted energy, is a second taken from their children (robots) and willingly make place.

And what was the best way to do it? Go good and show them just how much better robots are.

 

Problem is:

Good Mechanon is still mechanon, so he did not quite got the basic concepts: "No smoking on the sidewalk. Prepare for termination." so yes, we know how far this goes...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Mechanon is actually the easiest of all the master villains to change to a benevolent force. As described in Book Of The Machine,

Mechanon was sent from the far future to prevent a series of disasters which almost destroyed the Earth and the human race. The unpredictable turbulence of time travel brought it to the wrong era and erased much of its programming, and reversed its original prime directive -- to preserve all organic life. If that directive had remained intact, Mechanon would undoubtedly have acted as a hero since it first arrived in the Twentieth Century.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Mechanon is actually the easiest of all the master villains to change to a benevolent force. As described in Book Of The Machine' date='

Mechanon was sent from the far future to prevent a series of disasters which almost destroyed the Earth and the human race. The unpredictable turbulence of time travel brought it to the wrong era and erased much of its programming, and reversed its original prime directive -- to [b']preserve[/b] all organic life. If that directive had remained intact, Mechanon would undoubtedly have acted as a hero since it first arrived in the Twentieth Century.

But that would be a complete different character, total inversion of goals and modus operandi.

Aside from not knowing of that (don't have the book), my version preserves most of his modus operandi. And even uses his known lack of sanity (yes, that makes actually sense for him while following "destroy all humans"!)

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

The old classic "Champions in 3D" has a universe called "Backworld" where Dr. Albert Zerstoiten (aka Professor Preserver) built Mechanon to help fight against the tyranny of the Golden Avenger. That's the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this thread.

[phoenix240]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Mechanon is actually the easiest of all the master villains to change to a benevolent force. As described in Book Of The Machine' date='

Mechanon was sent from the far future to prevent a series of disasters which almost destroyed the Earth and the human race. The unpredictable turbulence of time travel brought it to the wrong era and erased much of its programming, and reversed its original prime directive -- to [b']preserve[/b] all organic life. If that directive had remained intact, Mechanon would undoubtedly have acted as a hero since it first arrived in the Twentieth Century.

 

 

You know...

 

 

 

It would be a neat twist if those disasters ended up being the results of Mechanon's scheming to destroy organic life

 

 

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

A little less xenophobia and arrogance could easily have resulted in Dr. Yin Wu, Archmage of Earth.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

A little less xenophobia and arrogance could easily have resulted in Dr. Yin Wu' date=' Archmage of Earth.[/quote']

 

Certainly, Yin Wu has his noble qualities, and has defended Earth from powerful evil entities and invaders repeatedly in the past (although one could argue that was "enlightened self-interest.")

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

I don't know that Yin Wu is quite the paragon he'd have us believe he is. There is something more than a little creepy about a good Confucian exploiting creatures that he's led to believe are his sons.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

"Paragon of virtue," definitely not. Like Dr. Doom, Dr. Yin Wu is evil and dangerous, but has some admirable qualities; although it's unclear how much of that positive behavior can be ascribed to pragmatism or necessity:

 

"Doctor Yin Wu is a typical Oriental master villain — evil, insidious, ruthless, inscrutable, and extremely powerful. His power derives from his mastery of Chinese magic and his arsenal of Chinese enchanted items; he despises all modern technology and ways. He has to observe a strict code of behavior to maintain his magical powers: he must not eat meat, use advanced technology (such as electronic devices), or break his word; and must offer homage to his ancestors every day.

 

... Despite unquestionably falling into the “master villain” category, Dr. Wu isn’t entirely unlikeable. His code of honor is strong, and it often prompts him to acts which can only be described as “charitable.” For example, he gives money to the poor, talks peacefully with his enemies when it would be prudent to do so (and otherwise treats them with dignity and respect, provided they do the same), and sometimes uses his powers to defend his home city or the world from threats which are a danger to him or to many people... A cynic would maintain that Dr. Wu’s acts of charity are intended ultimately to benefit himself, to keep the world safe for his own takeover, but as to the truth of that, who can say?" (CV1 pp. 277 and 279)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Sunburst claims to want to make the world a better place, and often talks and acts as if he supports that ideal. To some extent he's convinced himself that's true. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to make him sincerely committed to fighting injustice and improving the lot of the common man from outside the system, as a sort of Robin Hood figure.

 

Kinematik was a hero on his home alternate Earth, and even when he became a target of anti-mutant persecution he initially used only enough force to defend himself and other mutants. It was only after years of conflict that his views became so extreme. Had he escaped to Champions Earth sooner he might have remained a hero and moderate mutant advocate, more Professor X than Magneto.

[phoenix240]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

How about Telios? He could be pretty heroic if he strove to be as advanced spiritually and ethically as he is physically and mentally.

[Christopher]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

How about Telios? He could be pretty heroic if he strove to be as advanced spiritually and ethically as he is physically and mentally.

You'd be suprised how much peace-lovingness you can get out of squirrel DNA.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Ever see a squirrel defending its territory? One attacked my father once. Peace-loving my tuckus!

 

Squirrel = rat with good public relations.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Eh, squirrels have never invaded my home and pooped in my George Foreman grill. As long as the territory they're defending is outdoors, I'm OK with them.

[phoenix240]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Well, I was going more from the stand point that he considered himself the "perfect human" physically and mentally. AFAIK, Telios hasn't added any animal genetic material to his own.

[Christopher]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Well' date=' I was going more from the stand point that he considered himself the "perfect human" physically and mentally. AFAIK, Telios hasn't added any animal genetic material to his own.[/quote']

But there is this (repeated?) joke in Champiosn online that he uses Squirrel DNA in his creations. And they would have to be peace-loving as well, after all.

[phoenix240]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Ah, okay. I don't play the MMO so I haven't heard it.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

The old classic "Champions in 3D" has a universe called "Backworld" where Dr. Albert Zerstoiten (aka Professor Preserver) built Mechanon to help fight against the tyranny of the Golden Avenger. That's the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this thread.

 

Me too. It remains one of my favorite supplements.

[wcw43921]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

I think it would not take all that much to imagine some of the master villains as heroes. Take Gravitar, for one--as a young girl before her powers manifested, Erica d'Montressart's parents could have taken her to the shrine at Lourdes, where she could have seen a vision of the Virgin Mary--who said to her, "The Lord will give you a wondrous gift, my child--may you ever and always use it for the good of all his children." When Erica reached adulthood and attained full mastery over her power, she did just that, defending France--and ultimately the world--from the forces of evil. She has also donated a substantial portion of the d'Montressart fortune to charity, helping to feed and clothe the poor and to care for the ill and infirm.

 

For The Warlord, remember that Roger Warwell was a United States Marine. I think that a "mirror-verse" version would honor and abide by his U.S. serviceman's oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. (The same goes for the "mirror" versions of the other servicemen-turned-villains--Pulsar, Lazer, Armadillo, Stareye, Vector, et al.) He finds the crashed alien ship while on a mission for the U.S. Government and turns it over to them, and helps to develop the technology found within. The result is his super-battlesuit--the Warrior Advanced Resource Logistic Operational Resistant Defense system.

 

Alternately, Roger Warwell could never have served in the military at all--but have had many family members who did, and who came back physically and/or mentally devastated. He could come to thoroughly hate war and the politicians who inflict it upon the innocent in the name of the people they "serve"--and when he finds the alien wreckage and its advanced technology, he uses it to equip his own army of Peacemakers, who when anyone anywhere starts a war swoop in to attack and neutralize both sides with reduced-lethality weaponry. His goal, in Tony Stark's words, is to "privatize world peace"--and depending on the heroes' point of view, this may or may not be a good thing.

 

As for not-so-master villains--I thought perhaps that Geoffrey Haganstone, rather than learning from his parents that power is the birthright of the privileged few, learned a different lesson. His father, Senator Albert Haganstone, could have taught him the story of the Founding Fathers, and how George Washington had the opportunity to lead his disgruntled officers in a coup to take over Congress, and instead, through the force of his words alone, convinced them to uphold the ideals of liberty for which they had fought in the Revolution. He could have taught him to cherish the words of the Declaration Of Independence--"We hold these truths to be self-evident--that all men are created equal--that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. . .that to ensure these rights governments are instituted among men whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed." He could have taught him that power not only can be used to protect and defend the rights and lives of the innocent--but that it should be used for just that purpose. And when Geoffrey's powers emerged, he decided he would do just that. Like Captain Patriot and the Defenders Of Justice before him--he would become a hero.

 

Now obviously he would not call himself Holocaust--I was thinking he would name himself Champion or Hyperman. And he would lose the Spiked Gauntlets, perhaps putting the eleven points into his Armored Costume, perhaps. And he'd have to replace his Enraged and change his Psych Lims--but otherwise with his skill and power sets, he's good to go as a first-rate hero.

 

All my suggestions are based on the characters as they are presented in the 5th Edition, so if they've been changed for the MMO and 6th Edition sourcebooks you need to take that into account. Hope that helps.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

For The Warlord' date=' remember that Roger Warwell was a United States Marine. I think that a "mirror-verse" version would honor and abide by his U.S. serviceman's oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. (The same goes for the "mirror" versions of the other servicemen-turned-villains--[b']Pulsar, Lazer, Armadillo, Stareye, Vector[/b], et al.) He finds the crashed alien ship while on a mission for the U.S. Government and turns it over to them, and helps to develop the technology found within. The result is his super-battlesuit--the Warrior Advanced Resource Logistic Operational Resistant Defense system.

 

Alternately, Roger Warwell could never have served in the military at all--but have had many family members who did, and who came back physically and/or mentally devastated. He could come to thoroughly hate war and the politicians who inflict it upon the innocent in the name of the people they "serve"--and when he finds the alien wreckage and its advanced technology, he uses it to equip his own army of Peacemakers, who when anyone anywhere starts a war swoop in to attack and neutralize both sides with reduced-lethality weaponry. His goal, in Tony Stark's words, is to "privatize world peace"--and depending on the heroes' point of view, this may or may not be a good thing.

 

I particularly like this idea of Warlord as Peacemaker.

[phoenix240]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

I think it would not take all that much to imagine some of the master villains as heroes. Take Gravitar, for one--as a young girl before her powers manifested, Erica d'Montressart's parents could have taken her to the shrine at Lourdes, where she could have seen a vision of the Virgin Mary--who said to her, "The Lord will give you a wondrous gift, my child--may you ever and always use it for the good of all his children." When Erica reached adulthood and attained full mastery over her power, she did just that, defending France--and ultimately the world--from the forces of evil. She has also donated a substantial portion of the d'Montressart fortune to charity, helping to feed and clothe the poor and to care for the ill and infirm.

 

For The Warlord, remember that Roger Warwell was a United States Marine. I think that a "mirror-verse" version would honor and abide by his U.S. serviceman's oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. (The same goes for the "mirror" versions of the other servicemen-turned-villains--Pulsar, Lazer, Armadillo, Stareye, Vector, et al.) He finds the crashed alien ship while on a mission for the U.S. Government and turns it over to them, and helps to develop the technology found within. The result is his super-battlesuit--the Warrior Advanced Resource Logistic Operational Resistant Defense system.

 

Alternately, Roger Warwell could never have served in the military at all--but have had many family members who did, and who came back physically and/or mentally devastated. He could come to thoroughly hate war and the politicians who inflict it upon the innocent in the name of the people they "serve"--and when he finds the alien wreckage and its advanced technology, he uses it to equip his own army of Peacemakers, who when anyone anywhere starts a war swoop in to attack and neutralize both sides with reduced-lethality weaponry. His goal, in Tony Stark's words, is to "privatize world peace"--and depending on the heroes' point of view, this may or may not be a good thing.

 

As for not-so-master villains--I thought perhaps that Geoffrey Haganstone, rather than learning from his parents that power is the birthright of the privileged few, learned a different lesson. His father, Senator Albert Haganstone, could have taught him the story of the Founding Fathers, and how George Washington had the opportunity to lead his disgruntled officers in a coup to take over Congress, and instead, through the force of his words alone, convinced them to uphold the ideals of liberty for which they had fought in the Revolution. He could have taught him to cherish the words of the Declaration Of Independence--"We hold these truths to be self-evident--that all men are created equal--that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. . .that to ensure these rights governments are instituted among men whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed." He could have taught him that power not only can be used to protect and defend the rights and lives of the innocent--but that it should be used for just that purpose. And when Geoffrey's powers emerged, he decided he would do just that. Like Captain Patriot and the Defenders Of Justice before him--he would become a hero.

 

Now obviously he would not call himself Holocaust--I was thinking he would name himself Champion or Hyperman. And he would lose the Spiked Gauntlets, perhaps putting the eleven points into his Armored Costume, perhaps. And he'd have to replace his Enraged and change his Psych Lims--but otherwise with his skill and power sets, he's good to go as a first-rate hero.

 

All my suggestions are based on the characters as they are presented in the 5th Edition, so if they've been changed for the MMO and 6th Edition sourcebooks you need to take that into account. Hope that helps.

 

Well done, rep to you!

[wcw43921]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

Thank You all for the kind comments and the Reputation. The Holocaust to Hyperman conversion is my favorite.

 

It occurs to me, though, that if any CU Heroes were to encounter a mirror-verse version of their usual adversaries, it would be Foxbat--for he's the most likely to be his own mirror image. The way I figure it, in the course of his latest, greatest Master Plan ever, he finds himself in Hudson City, where he is shocked and appalled to find the criminals there acting like--well, real criminals.

 

FOXBAT: "I am Shocked! I am Appalled! Don't these people know how to be villains? Don't they have any sense of style? Don't they have any pride in themselves? It's like all they care about is the money! It's not right, I tell you! It's so far away from right--that it's WRONG!"

 

LEROY: "I don't get it, boss. What are you goin' to do?"

 

FOXBAT: "There's only one thing that can be done, Leroy. Long have the angels above wept in despair over the fact that such a legendary and exemplarly figure as Foxbat has ever only been a villain--that the good and decent people of the world have long cringed in terror at the mere mention of his name--except for the babes, of course. But now the time has come for this legendary and exemplarly babe magnet to cast aside the shadowy cloak, the top hat and the twirly moustache of villainy--to become, perhaps, what he was meant to be all along! Let the hearts of the angels and the babes lift in rejoicing! Let their voices and their shirt fronts burst forth in jubilation! For now the Fabulous and Formidable Foxbat stands on their side, and between the innocent and the helpless and those who would do them harm! Let the markers of the days mark this day well and truly, for this is the day Foxbat becomes--A HERO!!!"

 

LEROY: "Does this mean I'm not getting paid this week?"

 

FOXBAT: "Leroy--we're Heroes now! We don't need to worry about such mundanaries as getting paid! And besides, we're not in this for the money! We do this because it is Right! We do this because No One Else Can! We do this because--WE MUST!!!"

 

LEROY: "Daang--"

 

And with that, Foxbat begins his relentless crusade against crime in Hudson City. Surprisingly enough, he's actually good at it, and his efforts have an effect on the crime rate, both organized and otherwise. This leads the Hudson City crimelords to escslate their efforts to destroy him, leading to war in the streets, requiring the player-heroes to intervene.

 

Now for a more traditional version of a mirror-image character--if we imagine Foxbat as we know him as the "Adam West/Seth Rogen" version of the character, we can also imagine the "Dennis O'Neill/Neal Adams" version, the "Frank Miller" version (oooooh, scary), the "Bob Kane/Jerry Robinson" version, the "Tim Burton/Michael Keaton" version, the "Christopher Nolan/Christian Bale" version, and the "Joel Schumacher/George Clooney" version. That last may not be at all far removed from the first version--except that he's more handsome. Maybe--YMMV.

 

Hope that helps.

[phoenix240]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

I think the easiest one is probably V'han. I haven't seen her treatment in Book of the Empress but as it stands there's already a great deal of gray in her nature and plans.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Master Villains Mirror Mirror challenge

 

As per Book Of The Empress, there's a nearly uncountable number of citizens of the V'hanian Empire who already sincerely consider the Empress a hero, and the best thing to ever happen to the Multiverse. As utterly ruthless as she can be in the pursuit of her goals, she's measurably improved the quality of life for the majority of her subjects after conquest.