RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

[Derek Hiemforth]

In the standard HERO System rules, the Limitation Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2) can be applied to the Mental Paralysis version of Entangle, and the Psychokinesis version of Telekinesis. I'm considering also allowing it to be applied to Mental Illusions, Mind Control, and Telepathy, and am interested in input on whether you think the value would still be good at -1/2, or whether it should be different when applied to those Powers.

 

Of course, Mental Defense already works normally against Mental Illusions, Mind Control, and Telepathy, and this Limitation wouldn't change that. So it already "adds" to the victim's EGO in the sense that it already subtracts from the Effect Roll of the Power before seeing what level of effect the Power achieves.

 

What this would do, in essence, is allow it to help with Breakout Rolls too. Mental Defense would add, point for point, to the character's EGO for purposes of calculating his EGO Roll for Breakout Rolls. (Or if you like, you could think of it as the victim getting a Breakout Roll bonus of Mental Defense/5; same thing.)

 

Does -1/2 still seem about right for this effect? Or do you think it should be more or less of a Limitation when used in this way?

[Christopher]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

I think you have not cleary defined what this Limitation makes:

Does it mean the Mental Defense adds to the Breakout Rolls only?

Or does it also adds to Ego to determine the "Level of Effect" that was archieved*, and then to any breakout roll?

 

*Wich means it adds twice. Once for to determien waht get#s past defenses, then to determine your EGO level.

 

Also, what about advantaged mental Defense? Say 5 Double Hardened, Impenetrable Mental Defense (total of +1). Would it add +5 to the Ego or +10 (it's active points)?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

I think you have not cleary defined what this Limitation makes:

Does it mean the Mental Defense adds to the Breakout Rolls only?

 

No; as I said: "Mental Defense already works normally against Mental Illusions, Mind Control, and Telepathy, and this Limitation wouldn't change that."

 

Or does it also adds to Ego to determine the "Level of Effect" that was archieved, and then to any breakout roll?

 

Technically, it subtracts from the Effect Roll when determining the Level of Effect (exactly as it does now). But it works out the same, yes. With this Limitation, it would affect both the Level of Effect (as it does now), and Breakout Rolls (by adding to the victim's EGO).

[Christopher]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

I think you don't got what I said:

take hti target:

EGO 20, Mental Defense 5

 

And he is hit by 35 points of Mental Effect

1) Would he substract 5 from the Mental Defense, thus giving the enemy a EGO+10 result?

2) Would he substract 5 for the Mental Defense, then add the same 5 to his EGO - only giving the enemy an EGO+5 result?

 

Mental Powers are different from Entangle, as the "Defense"/Breakout characteristic is used once before the first breakout roll.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

I think you don't got what I said:

take hti target:

EGO 20, Mental Defense 5

 

And he is hit by 35 points of Mental Effect

1) Would he substract 5 from the Mental Defense, thus giving the enemy a EGO+10 result?

2) Would he substract 5 for the Mental Defense, then add the same 5 to his EGO - only giving the enemy an EGO+5 result?

 

Mental Powers are different from Entangle, as the "Defense"/Breakout characteristic is used once before the first breakout roll.

 

1 is correct. 2 is not.

 

It would act exactly as it does now. (EGO 20 and 5 Mental Defense hit with a 35 Effect Roll would give the attacker an EGO + 10 result.) But then when making Breakout Rolls, the victim's EGO would be treated as 25 (his EGO plus Mental Defense) instead of 20.

 

So this Limitation would make it so that not only would Mental Defense make a character less likely to be affected by Mental Illusions, Mind Control, and Telepathy, it would also make it easier to break free of them if you were affected.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Maybe this is a clearer way to state it (and I realized it could apply to Mind Scan too):

 

Mental Defense Adds To EGO: May be applied to Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Scan, or Telepathy. In addition to all of the normal ways Mental Defense applies to this Power, the target also adds his Mental Defense to his EGO for purposes of making Breakout Rolls.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

I hate to shut the door on any limitation, so the question becomes value. Stream of consciousness analysis...

 

It would take 3d6 of extra Mental Attack (say, Telepathy) to get an average roll of 10 points, punching through 10 Mental Defense for all purposes. That extra 10 points also imposes -2 on breakout rolls.

 

So if I could have 12d6 Telepathy, average roll 42, or 18d6, average roll 63, mental defense enhances breakout rolls, the target needs an extra 20 Mental Defense to have the same breakout roll.

 

If I have 12d6 Telepathy with this limitation, or 8d6 without, the difference is 14 points, or about -3 to the breakout roll.

 

My gut feel is that -1/2 is too high a limitation. Maybe -1/4 would be equitable. Given all the limitations imposed on Mental Paralysis already, an extra -1/2 doesn't really save as much as -1/2 on a base power does. Adding value to the target's mental defense should be worth something, so I'd be reluctant to say -0. I'd try it out at -1/4 or -1/2 and see what playtest suggests, but I lean to -1/4.

 

That's also equivalent to Reduced Penetration, which effectively also doubles defenses. This effectively doubles mental defenses, except that it won't prevent a level of effect being achieved, only change the breakout rolls.

 

Hopefully, that makes a bit of sense...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Thanks, Hugh. That's the sort of thinking I was hoping for. My gut reaction was -1/4 too. Let's see how a straight 12d6 Telepathy (60 points) compares to a 15d6 Telepathy with Mental Defense Adds To STR at -1/4 (also 60 points).

 

12d6 = 42 Effect Roll. On a target with 20 EGO and 10 points Mental Defense, that's an EGO + 10 effect with normal Breakout Rolls, or a >EGO effect with -2 on Breakout Rolls.

 

15d6 = 52 Effect Roll. On a target with 20 EGO and 10 points Mental Defense, that's an EGO +20 effect and Breakout Rolls (effectively) at +2, or an EGO +10 with normal Breakout Rolls (the -2 from extra effect and +2 from Mental Defense counter each other), or a >EGO effect with a net -2 on Breakout Rolls.

 

So the 15d6-with-the-Limitation version is superior. The Breakout Roll penalties just counteract the bonuses, but the Level of Effect can be higher. Yes, there are also potentially drawbacks to the Active Cost being higher, but in terms of usage, it's clearly better than the unmodified Power at the same Real Cost. That suggests to me that it's not worth even a -1/4 Limitation if it works like this.

 

Maybe an alternate possibility would be keeping it at -1/2, and having Mental Defense add point-for-point to the Breakout Roll itself (rather than adding to EGO). Most of the time, I think that would have the end result of making such powers practically worthless against characters with Mental Defense. That's certainly a meaningful Limitation, and I can easily imagine plenty of Special Effects appropriate for it. But I would have to wonder if it might be too unbalancing. (Though Mental Powers generally hose characters unequipped to deal with them anyway, so...)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

I'm -- almost -- of the opinion that Mental Defense should already do that, and that it should already get that cost break (call it 3 for 2 points or 1 per point with a mandatory -1/2 or whatever). I know it works as limited EGO plus one point of defense against Mental Blast, but it seems like that resistance against Mental Blast might not be worth that much.

 

Why this didn't come up during the SETAC discussions I'll never know.

 

Non-rhetorical question, because I just realized I don't actually know the answer: What does Mental Defense do that EGO doesn't, and vice versa?

 

Edited to add: Derek, it looks like you're proposing that a Limitation against the Power ought to add functionality. That looks kinda screwy, but see my previous paragraph about "it should already do that" and "it should already get that cost break".

[Christopher]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Maybe this is a clearer way to state it (and I realized it could apply to Mind Scan too):

 

Mental Defense Adds To EGO: May be applied to Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Scan, or Telepathy. In addition to all of the normal ways Mental Defense applies to this Power, the target also adds his Mental Defense to his EGO for purposes of making Breakout Rolls.

Better call it "Mental Defense Adds to Breakout Roll". While the Breakout Roll is a Modified Ego roll, it's a seperate roll in its own right (for example, it something seperate for the 2 points Skill Levels).

 

I'm -- almost -- of the opinion that Mental Defense should already do that, and that it should already get that cost break (call it 3 for 2 points or 1 per point with a mandatory -1/2 or whatever). I know it works as limited EGO plus one point of defense against Mental Blast, but it seems like that resistance against Mental Blast might not be worth that much.

 

Why this didn't come up during the SETAC discussions I'll never know.

 

Non-rhetorical question, because I just realized I don't actually know the answer: What does Mental Defense do that EGO doesn't, and vice versa?

When we only look at default Mental Powers, it only works as limited Ego. However, what about Cumulative Powers? Cumulative is especially usefull for Powers that need to archieve a certain result number - like mental powes and Dispel. Here it is worth a lot more than just a little bit more Ego.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Edited to add: Derek' date=' it looks like you're proposing that a Limitation against the Power ought to add functionality. That looks kinda screwy, but see my previous paragraph about "it should already do that" and "it should already get that cost break".[/quote']

 

Yes, but it's adding another application to a different Power... not the Power the Limitation applies to.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Yes' date=' but it's adding another application to a [i']different[/i] Power... not the Power the Limitation applies to.

 

D'oh! :facepalm: I misread the original post. The Limitation is applied to the attacking Power, not the Mental Defense.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Right, it's a Limitation on a Power that makes it easier to shrug off for those possessing Mental Defense, not an Advantage on the Target's Mental Defense itself.

 

This is one of those times that I'd think the SFX of the Mental Defense might need to be considered. If one's MD is defined as, say, a powered armor helmet that erects a jamming field, I'd think that a Mental Power that cracks through it should probably get the full effect of however many points penetrate the defense. But if the MD is defined as "Indomitable Willpower" or somesuch I can see it aiding breakout rolls more naturally.

[Christopher]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

This is one of those times that I'd think the SFX of the Mental Defense might need to be considered..

One of the times? You say that for practically all instances for mental defense ever noticed on the board

 

And like all times, I disagree. The guy with the pwoer armor helmet paid the some price and unless some specific limitation says so, he should get the full effect. You get what you pay for, worry about the special effects and in game description later.

Perhaps this power armor guys also had a thing in his armor that detects the manipulation (or a manipulation) and actively stimulates his brain to counter it, thus helping him with breakout rolls for powes with just this limitation?

[Ndreare]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Maybe this is a clearer way to state it (and I realized it could apply to Mind Scan too):

 

Mental Defense Adds To EGO: May be applied to Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Scan, or Telepathy. In addition to all of the normal ways Mental Defense applies to this Power, the target also adds his Mental Defense to his EGO for purposes of making Breakout Rolls.

I would value this as a -1/4 lim.

[Enforcer84]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

...at the risk of sounding like an idiot...

 

what does RFC stand for? Sorry I've been seeing it around and beyond "Remanded For Consideration" I am clueless.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Request For Comment.

[Enforcer84]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Ah! Thanks Derek!

[Sean Waters]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

What you are suggesting is that you double the effect of Mental Defence against that power (MD works just like more EGO for every mental power other than Mental Blast anyway). How much of a limitation that is depends on both how common mental defence is and how much is commonly bought, so it is art rather than science.

 

Say you have a 60 point mental illusions, and apply this at -1/4. You save 12 points. To be 'fair' most opponents will need to average 12 Mental Defence for it to balance (at least that is one way to look at it).

 

The difference between this and allowing defences to affect Psychic Entangles is that the PE does not naturally have a common defence (no one buys 'Extra STR just for breaking out of entangles'...well someone probably does but not many people).

 

It is SORT of analogous to Reduced Penetration, but that only works against Body and that is a -1/4. I am not sure I would allow the limitation to give a cost break at all, even though I absolutely see that it IS limiting in many situations. In a Psychic Campaign, it is definitely worth a cost break. In many other campaigns, maybe not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

At the same time, Sean, in many games BOD is a limited threat to begin with as most characters have sufficient defenses/rDEF that they rarely or never take BOD anyway. All the STUN still goes through normally.

 

That -1/4 for Mental Illusions means that a target with no mental defense takes exactly the same effects as before. Let's assume that's a 13 EGO target. 42 average roll means 29 points of effect, so if we're going for Ego +20, his breakout roll takes a -1 penalty (11-), and an EGO +10 effect means he needs a 9-. Give him 5 Mental defense and he goes to a 12- (13- with the limitation), or a 10- (11- with limitation). That's a significant increase to the likeliness of successful breakout. [it also shows how difficult it is to achieve and maintain a mental power - even with 60 AP and a modest Ego, breakout shouldn't take very long.]

 

What's the spread between AVAD - Mental Defense (reduces effect) and NND - Mental Defense (no effect if you have mental defense)?

[Christopher]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

The difference between this and allowing defences to affect Psychic Entangles is that the PE does not naturally have a common defence (no one buys 'Extra STR just for breaking out of entangles'...well someone probably does but not many people).

Martial Escape, +15 STR vs. Grabs.

And according to the Grab rules, this also effects escaping entangles (wich are for most part an autonomous grab).

[Sean Waters]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

At the same time, Sean, in many games BOD is a limited threat to begin with as most characters have sufficient defenses/rDEF that they rarely or never take BOD anyway. All the STUN still goes through normally.

 

That -1/4 for Mental Illusions means that a target with no mental defense takes exactly the same effects as before. Let's assume that's a 13 EGO target. 42 average roll means 29 points of effect, so if we're going for Ego +20, his breakout roll takes a -1 penalty (11-), and an EGO +10 effect means he needs a 9-. Give him 5 Mental defense and he goes to a 12- (13- with the limitation), or a 10- (11- with limitation). That's a significant increase to the likeliness of successful breakout. [it also shows how difficult it is to achieve and maintain a mental power - even with 60 AP and a modest Ego, breakout shouldn't take very long.]

 

What's the spread between AVAD - Mental Defense (reduces effect) and NND - Mental Defense (no effect if you have mental defense)?

 

I think the difficulty is that you can buy +1 to your breakout roll for 2 or 3 points (I can not remember which), but the person buying the power saves 12 points on a 12d6 mental illusions (or whatever) attack. Hmm. Not sure what my point is there...possibly that you are saving more points than your opponents would have to spend to have the same effect.

 

I agree that the limitation is significantly limiting against a character with mental defence but I also think that the actual limitation is difficult to accurately cost.

 

I would not object if someone came to me and said they wanted this as a -1/4, but I would say that I would want to review it when I see the effect in play. In a game with a significant portion of adversaries having mental defence it may well make the power virtually useless. Breakout rolls are already the bane of most mentalist's lives.

[Sean Waters]

Re: RFC: Mental Defense Adds To EGO on Mental Illusions/Mind Control/Telepathy

 

Martial Escape, +15 STR vs. Grabs.

And according to the Grab rules, this also effects escaping entangles (wich are for most part an autonomous grab).

 

Good point well made: I had not thought of that.