Beaks and Speech

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

 

If a humanoid race had a beak instead of teeth and lips, what would their speech sound like?

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Hello all,

 

If a humanoid race had a beak instead of teeth and lips, what would their speech sound like?

I've got a little bit of language training, so let's try it out for what we need lips (I asume they have tongues, otherwise they could not use 90% of the alphabeth):

A - normally

B - without lips, all you can do is a E. B next to imposible without lips

C- normally

D- normally

E- normally

F- impossible without lips, teeth and the ability to bring the lips to the teeth

G- normally

H- normally

I - again, need lips

J- normally

K- normally

L- normally

N- normally

M- based on lips

O- normally

P- lips-based

Q- normally

R- normally

S- normally

T-normally

U-normally

W-double U, so the D strikes again

X-normally

Y-lips based

Z-normally

[mayapuppies]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Cool, thank you, sir.

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Based on what I wrote, what they could repalce what with:

B - using D instead (dudle U). It's building up pressure in your mouth, then let the air "explode" out of your mouth, then humming

F- no replacement. It's a E, then bring lower lips to teeth

I - just realised you can do it with your tungue alone

M - E is the closest. It's saying E, then closing your lips fast

P - E or D. It's like B, just without the humming

W - dudle U

Y - I or U. It's U, then A, then I

[dmjalund]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

They may compensate by having a more flexible back of mouth

[McCoy]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

I've got a little bit of language training, so let's try it out for what we need lips (I asume they have tongues, otherwise they could not use 90% of the alphabeth):

A - normally

B - without lips, all you can do is a E. B next to imposible without lips

C- normally

D- normally

E- normally

F- impossible without lips, teeth and the ability to bring the lips to the teeth

G- normally

H- normally

I - again, need lips

J- normally

K- normally

L- normally

N- normally

M- based on lips

O- normally

P- lips-based

Q- normally

R- normally

S- normally

T-normally

U-normally

W-double U, so the D strikes again

X-normally

Y-lips based

Z-normally

Yet I've heard talking birds imitate P, W, Y, B and F without lips. They don't have the same mechanism to make the sounds as we do, but they manage.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Yet I've heard talking birds imitate P' date=' W, Y, B and F without lips. They don't have the same mechanism to make the sounds as we do, but they manage.[/quote']

 

It probably operates similarly to a ventriloquist. They can't make those sounds without moving their lips, but they can create close approximations, and the brain of the listener will usually reinforce that approximation by fitting in the correct word via context. For example, the word 'banjo' ... the 'b' sounds more like a hard 'g' when he says it, but if he provides context ('I just love banjo music!'), your brain will automatically substitute the 'b' sound because nothing else makes sense.

[McCoy]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

It probably operates similarly to a ventriloquist. They can't make those sounds without moving their lips' date=' but they can create close approximations, and the brain of the listener will usually reinforce that approximation by fitting in the correct word via context. For example, the word 'banjo' ... the 'b' sounds more like a hard 'g' when he says it, but if he provides context ('I just love banjo music!'), your brain will automatically substitute the 'b' sound because nothing else makes sense.[/quote']

http://youtu.be/ydg5M4C6K

 

First clip I checked. I hear clearly where she says "beer" and "bye-bye." Einstein is well known enough that I don't think that was an off-stage human providing the vocals.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Listen to either a parakeet, parrot, or other similar bird talking and you'll get what a bird-race's speech will approximate.

 

Birds have a completely different way of making all the same sounds we do.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

The first thing I thought of was not a beaked race imitating humans, but what a beaked race's language might sound like.

So, thinking of birds...

Whistles, with clicks for emphasis. Chortles. Clucks. Screeches. You can send a lot of information with those sounds.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

My mom had a parrot when I was a kid, well one when I was 5-8 or so, and another when I was 12 through 25 or so. Birds can likely make more sounds than we can, and in a further (but higher?) range or pitch or frequency or whatever; more so than not being able to properly mimic us. They do have a different 'sound' to their voice and syllables and such, but they will likely be able to speak any human word more or less understandably. I would just say they have a "Distinctive Features: Shrill Voice" or some such.

 

And re: language above, yeah, you could easily go with that - I was only speaking to what sounds they were actually capable of making.

[Lucius]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Hello all,

 

If a humanoid race had a beak instead of teeth and lips, what would their speech sound like?

 

Probably much like the speech of a nonhumanoid race with a beak.

 

So, listen to parrots, parakeets, crows, ravens, and other birds that mimic our speech, and assume that if humanoid means humansized, their speech might be deeper than an actual bird's.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pollydromedary wanna cracker

[SteveZilla]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

The first thing I thought of was not a beaked race imitating humans, but what a beaked race's language might sound like.

So, thinking of birds...

Whistles, with clicks for emphasis. Chortles. Clucks. Screeches. You can send a lot of information with those sounds.

 

Yeah.... but imo to communicate complex, abstract (or non-abstract) concepts, one needs a fully-realized language that would be more than "Whistles, with clicks for emphasis. Chortles. Clucks. Screeches".

[Sougen]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

I'd have to side with all the people who already noted that they would sound the way they sound ^^. Certainly there are certain human produced sounds that would be difficult to imitate much less reproduce. Some sounds that require the existence of dynamically mobile lips would indeed be hard ( /M, B, P, W, U, O/ for example). Depending on the nature of their nasal cavities, things that require nasality would also be hard ( /N, M, Ng/ ). Also, I'm not sure if they have uvulas, but sounds that use the uvula would likewise be hard. Then there is just the general question if their oral cavity is set up in such away as to be able to create the sound compressions needed to generate the whole host of other sounds we produce. Or if their tongue has the level of mobility as ours. And wither or not they have a great deal of control of their glottis so that they can voice and unvoice various sounds.

 

So, could they mimic human speech? Probably not too well unless they were very strange beak bearers. Could they have their own oral language, yeah, easily. There would probably be a variety of vowels, several different kinds of fricatives and perhaps the interior plosives (stops). They could even make use of various clicks and such depending on the exact nature of their mouth. And then there will also be a whole host of sounds that they could possibly make that we don't. Then there would also be issues regarding the sensitivity of their hearing. If they can greater variance in sounds than us, then they could also have the ability to make fine distinctions in sounds that we don't already do (and to be honest, human ears have a great range for detecting difference given that we can make and detect well over 100 discrete sounds).

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Looking at this video about Einstein

 

I think that he actually has Transmission Advantage on his Hearing, propably with some Mimikri Adder/Skill. They only thing he lacks seems to be a human sized brain, with wich to actually formulate sentences.

[Sougen]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

Yeah.... but imo to communicate complex' date=' abstract (or non-abstract) concepts, one needs a fully-realized language that would be more than "Whistles, with clicks for emphasis. Chortles. Clucks. Screeches".[/quote']

 

While I agree that language is the key foundation for communication of such ideas, I think it is a misnomer to think that language is define by the sounds made. English, for example, has around 35 discrete sounds (forgot the exact number). But there are languages with as few as 10 or so - heck one language has well over 100. But I find it hard to believe that English speakers have a harder time communicate than the others. What is classically considered important for something to pass the language threshold is the ability to Alter and create new "words" and thus not be limited to a generationally specific lexicon, for it to be able to reference concepts out of the 'now', thus being able to communicate about the past, the future, the here and the over their; and for it to be able to embed upon itself so as to have the ability to create infinitely complex and long streams of communication. For that reason, no animal communication has been seen to able to mach human language. Bees can talk about the "over their" but can't create new words and thus are limited to the lexicon they were given at maturation.

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

For that reason' date=' no animal communication has been seen to able to mach human language. Bees can talk about the "over their" but can't create new words and thus are limited to the lexicon they were given at maturation.[/quote']

But is that a function of ther limited ability to creat sound, or of lacking the brain parts/size needed for it?

 

Also, we have not fully analyzed Doplhin/Whale sounds yet. So don't go on makign asumptions about them talking about the past or future. And for making up new words: What exactly is a Bird doing to describe the Sound of the Bell of a Ice Mobile? Repeating them.

[Sougen]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

But is that a function of ther limited ability to creat sound, or of lacking the brain parts/size needed for it?

 

Also, we have not fully analyzed Doplhin/Whale sounds yet. So don't go on makign asumptions about them talking about the past or future. And for making up new words: What exactly is a Bird doing to describe the Sound of the Bell of a Ice Mobile? Repeating them.

 

 

It isn't the limited nature of the sounds they can produce. Again, there are animals who can produce far far more than 10 discrete sounds but have no 'language', while there are human languages that only require ten sounds. It is a matter of the brain of any given species having the resources needed to develop a language center. The evolutionary process doesn't favor language. Communication, yes. Language, no.

 

Likewise, I'm not making any wild assumptions, I am communicating accepted fact in the linguistic community. There are indeed creatures who can break some of the barriers for gaining access to actual language, but no animal has been shown to break them all. Bees can move out of the limited nature of the now and talk about far off places. This is a functional aspect of all known bees and one that is necessary for their survival. The ability to create new words inside a single lifetime isn't, though. Bees lack this because it is not normally necessary for their flourishing. These issues with being able to acquire full language are rather tough challenges.

 

As to whales and Dolphins, I know their is a lot of myth surrounding them, I know there is a lot of love for the idea of the intelligent sea brethren, but there isn't enough evidence to support the idea that they have language. Complex communication is about as far as current research has gotten. And this isn't a matter of analyzing the 'sounds' they produce, it is a matter of analyzing what other members of the species do with the sounds they hear. How does it affect their behavior and is there honest reason to suggest that the sounds communicated in the complexity that is language. That is the weak link in the Dolphin and Whale font.

 

Many animals have complex communication, none but human has been shown to have language. Something that is inherently abstract / arbitrary, capable of communicating about events that have, are, and will happen; and of the here, there, and way over there; capable of formulating, expressing, and explaining new lexicon adders inside a single lifetime, and capable of the infinitely complex string of communication. Chimpanzees were once thought to have the ability to learn human sign as a language and not mere communication - many researches tried to press the idea that they were breaking the barriers and creating new thoughts and discussing non-now events. But at the end of the day, there wasn't the evidence to support it but a lot of bias on the part of the researches to question it.

 

As to the bird example you listed, I'm not sure what you were trying to convey. Is there a specific event you are talking about?

 

PS: although I've mentioned sound and that is the standard medium by which language is thought to be conveyed through, it isn't the only one. Bees use dance and chemicals. Chimpanzees were using sign. There is far more to language than just the medium chosen to convey it.

[dmjalund]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

I'd imagine that their version of Onomatopoeia would actually sound like the things thay are talking about

[h=3][/h]

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

I'd imagine that their version of Onomatopoeia would actually sound like the things thay are talking about

My idea exactly. You don't need to find words standing in for a sound if you can just MAKE that sound. And they could easily put things like past and future tense into it via extra sounds, a certain amplitude or some other way that we humans can't figure out (with out lousy ears, that work in the totally wrong frequency areas).

[Sougen]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

You seem to operating on the idea that bird sounds are somehow extremely mysterious to us. By looking at bird heads we can know with great precision what sounds that can and can not hear. We can know with great precision what sounds they can and can not produce. And we have all the tech needed to record, measure, and analyze all those sounds with as much precision as any bird ear. But the noise being made hasn't been show to indicate discernible patters akin to language. Communication, yeah. Language, no. There is a light year of difference between the two.

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

There is a light year of difference between the two.

You mean the same distance as between a Bird and a species of Sentient beings with Beaks?

[Sougen]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

You mean the same distance as between a Bird and a species of Sentient beings with Beaks?

 

No, there is a light year of difference between animal communication and actual language.

[Christopher]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

No' date=' there is a light year of difference between animal communication and actual language.[/quote']

In the Ruleset of Hero, the difference is not to take a complication.

 

And we were talking about "how would a species of sentients with beaks" communicate, both for the rules aspect and how to modify their speech.

[Sougen]

Re: Beaks and Speech

 

In the Ruleset of Hero, the difference is not to take a complication.

 

And we were talking about "how would a species of sentients with beaks" communicate, both for the rules aspect and how to modify their speech.

 

Christopher, I do not think you and I are talking even remotely about the same thing here. I'm now quite confused why you have been quoting me at all. I have from my first post never mentioned HERO or any rules therein. I have been talking about general biology and linguistics. You have quoted me and continued forth with saying I shouldn't make assumptions about dolphins and whales to which I responded; once again without ever referencing HERO. So you'll excuse me if I'm a tad bit perplexed by this sudden move to talking about HERO.