Help with Adding Damage

[JmOz]

Always had problems with this

 

Could someone tell me how much damage a character would do with the following combination

 

Flight 50m

HA 2d6 AP

Str 70

Passing Strike

 

Also does the rule about different multipowers affect this, as each one is in a different MP

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

6e means AP = +1/4 Advantage

 

According to Damage Adding Rules on page 99 of 6e2:

 

• 70 STR * 4/5 = 56 or +11 DC's with AP
  
• Passing Strike normally adds v/10 DC's (5 before Advantages)
  
• 5 * 4/5 = +4 DC's with AP
  

 

Total Attack = 17d6 AP

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

According to the MP (6E1 398) rules "a character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework".

 

He could still use the Damage boost from passing Strike and Flight (as the extra Damage comes from the Maneuver, not the Power itself).

But he would have to add it to his normal STR + HA, AP or his 70 STR. he can't add both.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

Always had problems with this

 

Could someone tell me how much damage a character would do with the following combination

 

Flight 50m

HA 2d6 AP

Str 70

Passing Strike

 

Also does the rule about different multipowers affect this, as each one is in a different MP

 

Is the STR in a MP? Presumably the Passing Strike isn't?

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

Is the STR in a MP? Presumably the Passing Strike isn't?

Wait, JmOz had 5E right?

 

I looked into my 5E Character Creation handbook and the Rule about a STR Slot not adding to a HA/HKA Slot is there as well so at least that part stays the same.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I know JmOz has a copy of 6e because he's posted characters using it.

Flight 50m instead of Flight 25" is a good indicator of 6e rules.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

yes it was 6th edition. I was unsure about the str (60 points in a MP) and HA in a seperate MP would interact with each other. One is part of his gravity powers, while the other is part of his density powers. Thanks for all the help everyone.

 

If you are curious, the character is Powerhouse from my Avengers:Virgina thread

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

"a character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework".

 

Anyone want to venture a thought to why this might be? Would you be able to abuse the combination more if they were in frameworks?? Is it just a game balance thing because it will surely seem odd in gameplay.

 

"Yeah, I know you can lift a building but when you are using your claws none of that strength matters...."

 

 

Doc

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

Anyone want to venture a thought to why this might be? Would you be able to abuse the combination more if they were in frameworks?? Is it just a game balance thing because it will surely seem odd in gameplay.

I woudl think "can't be used to add to powers in same or other framework" is part of the -4 or -9 Limitation you get for putting it in a Multipower.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I woudl think "can't be used to add to powers in same or other framework" is part of the -4 or -9 Limitation you get for putting it in a Multipower.

 

It's only in the same framework. If you have 60 points in your Multipower pool, why should you not be able to combine 30 points of Growth with 30 points of Density Increase and get the STR bonus from both?

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

It's only in the same framework. If you have 60 points in your Multipower pool' date=' why should you not be able to combine 30 points of Growth with 30 points of Density Increase and get the STR bonus from both?[/quote']

The Rule is simple:

If you want to add a Framework Slot to something or be added by something, is has to be bought outside of any framework. Whether it is an Aid or extra Power.

Perhaps the frameworks only stay readibly balanced as long as you don't combine them? I am certain there is a very good reason for it that I don't understand.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

So I build a character with 'non-magical' Density Increase built within a framework that also includes Desolidification. The character has a 'magic club' built inside a different framework that he can do various things with including various HA slots.

 

What game balance issue is being served by penalizing the character's total HTH damage potential as a result of spending more points on the ability to have his 'club' magically return to his hand when thrown & use his density control powers to become intangible? (The hypothetical is Thor finding Vision 'worthy' of using his hammer and getting him a copy like Beta Ray Bill did).

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

So I build a character with 'non-magical' Density Increase built within a framework that also includes Desolidification. The character has a 'magic club' built inside a different framework that he can do various things with including various HA slots.

 

What game balance issue is being served by penalizing the character's total HTH damage potential as a result of spending more points on the ability to have his 'club' magically return to his hand when thrown & use his density control powers to become intangible? (The hypothetical is Thor finding Vision 'worthy' of using his hammer and getting him a copy like Beta Ray Bill did).

Since Steve Long does not answers Game Design questions, loos like it's up to me to make sense out of it.

 

Right of the bat I would say:

You saved points with both. Multipowers are a big point saver. You pay something for the slots of course, but two Powers in a Framework are less expensive then buying them seperately. Two 60 point powers in a 60 Reserve Multipower cost 72 instead of 120 - a saving of 40%. With flexibel Slots it's still only 84 - 30% saving.

Things get better the more powers you put in it, as you amortize the Upfront Cost for the Reserve over more powers. And of coures if you apply "all Slots" Limitations, you save even more.

 

The math is different with VPP, but it still results in a net save. Comparing all the powers you can built with what you pay for it, you could come down at a 90% saving easily.

 

Lossing the ability to combine powers for a 30-90% cost saving? Sounds like you made a deal with a lot of upsides for you and now complain about the downsides.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

Perhaps the frameworks only stay readibly balanced as long as you don't combine them? I am certain there is a very good reason for it that I don't understand.

 

And there is the answer I was looking for - you don't know either. You have the same vague suspicions as me (someone at some time saw game balance issues) but no real examples to throw out. That's cool.

 

However, I wonder if anyone does have examples. It is a rule I honoured more often in the breach than in the observance and explicitly broke it for an Ultraboy style character (3rd edition - small EC of powers good enough to be heroic level character - large MP with ultra slots each of which took an EC power to superheroic levels)

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I don't see the balance issue. If the framework is unbalanced, it is unbalanced whether or not powers can combine effectively.

 

Again, if my Multipower has 60 AP, and I can use it to have 60 points of Growth or 60 points of Density Increase, where is the imbalance in being able to use it to have 30 points of each?

 

Let's expand on that. I can buy MP: 60 base and 2 Multi slots, one for Growth and 1 for DI, for 84 points. I could instead buy 3 slots, one with Growth, one with DI and the third combining 30 Growth and 30 DI, and only pay 78 points. Why is the more expensive one more unbalanced? Sure, I get a bit more flexibility, so that 6 points carries some value - IF the two can combine. But is it really unbalanced compared to the three slot option?

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I don't see the balance issue. If the framework is unbalanced' date=' it is unbalanced whether or not powers can combine effectively.[/quote']

I could not find out what you wanted to say here. If you answer a post quote it or at least drop a hint wich part you mean.

 

Again, if my Multipower has 60 AP, and I can use it to have 60 points of Growth or 60 points of Density Increase, where is the imbalance in being able to use it to have 30 points of each?

 

Let's expand on that. I can buy MP: 60 base and 2 Multi slots, one for Growth and 1 for DI, for 84 points. I could instead buy 3 slots, one with Growth, one with DI and the third combining 30 Growth and 30 DI, and only pay 78 points. Why is the more expensive one more unbalanced? Sure, I get a bit more flexibility, so that 6 points carries some value - IF the two can combine. But is it really unbalanced compared to the three slot option?

Because it is still cheaper than 60 DI + 60 Growth bought outside of a Multipower.

 

When you want full flexibility in combining, don't try to save point with a construct that limits that ability.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I could not find out what you wanted to say here. If you answer a post quote it or at least drop a hint wich part you mean.

 

 

Because it is still cheaper than 60 DI + 60 Growth bought outside of a Multipower.

 

When you want full flexibility in combining, don't try to save point with a construct that limits that ability.

Hugh's examole could be recreated using single powers with a custom version of the Lockout Limitation.

[Martin2]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

According to the MP (6E1 398) rules "a character cannot use STR bought as a slot in one Power Framework (or the STR obtained from Density Increase or Growth bought as a slot) to add damage to an HA or HKA bought as a slot in the same or another Power Framework".

 

I was not aware of that rule. But I do not see why Growth and Density increase cannot be bought together. It is probably there for some game ballance I do not understand.

 

But I will choose to ignore that rule if I think it is reasonable build.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I could not find out what you wanted to say here. If you answer a post quote it or at least drop a hint wich part you mean.

 

I don't know how I can be much clearer - if there is a balance issue, it is not caused by the possibility of powers combining when the pool is adequate to support use of both powers.

 

Because it is still cheaper than 60 DI + 60 Growth bought outside of a Multipower.

 

As well it should be - using 60 DI + 60 Growth is much more powerful than combining Growth and DI to a maximum of 60 points in total. That's why the Mulipower is cheaper.

 

When you want full flexibility in combining' date=' don't try to save point with a construct that limits that ability.[/quote']

 

Given we're discussing whether the construct should appropriately limit that ability, "don't buy it if you don't like it" doesn't seem an overly useful contribution to the discussion.

 

I don't see the point savings. The character with the 84 point MP can freely combine DI and Growth up to 60 AP, ignoring the rule whose utility is under discussion. The character who pays 78 points for three ultra slots can freely choose between 60 DI, 60 Growth and 30 of each, under the RAW. The extra 6 points is an extra price paid for extra flexibility if we remove the "no combining" rule and removes utility if not, since the character can never benefit from having flexible rather than fixed slots.

 

A Multipower with 30 points in each of Growth or DI would cost 36 points. 30 points of each of DI and Growth would cost another 60. A -1/4 limitation on each of those powers drops that to 48, the same 84 points paid for the Multipower. "Cannot use more than 60 AP total Growth and DI" seems like it should be at least a -1/4 limitation, given the character could otherwise have 90 points.

 

That's not quite as flexible as the two flex slot Multi, but it's not far off - and if the limitation is considered -1/2, we get a 76 point total cost, accounting for that reduced flexibility. If we allow the -1/4 on the Multipower and the base powers, we get a total cost of 28 + 24 + 24 = that same 76 points.

 

I note from 6e 78 that a character may also make multiple attacks with slots from different frameworks, or multiple slots from the same framework (the latter being a change from 5e). If that is not unbalanced, why is using multiple slots from the same framework, or from multiple frameworks, to augment STR inherently unbalanced? Granted, the additive effect may result in damage classes that are unbalanced, but that's easily addressed with a DC cap.

[Christopher]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

Hugh, you don't seem to listen again. This rule is not an Extra Limit to compensate for anything or prevent any inbalanced combination. It is already part of the Cost Break. It has been part of the rules for Frameworks at least since 5E (so for at least 11 years now).

 

About rebuilding the Fixed Slot Framework with Lockout:

First, lockout is designed to work mostly on powers in the same Framework. I would guess it was desinged for Elemental Controlls (as VPP sand Multipower already have rules for that).

Second: Few multipowers tend to only have two powers. And once you have three powers, the saving goes up quickly. (78 vs. 160 is 55% already) And I have seen a lot more Frameworks with 3-5 Slots than once with 2 (those are msot often Movement Power Frameworks).

 

 

In either case to get to the botom of this rule:

Has anybody a collecting going back farther than 5E, so we can see when this rule was introduced?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

As a general concept, assessing whether a rule is appropriate is not resolved by referring to the existence of the rule itself. What is the balance issue that you perceive is addressed by precluding the combination of slots in one or more frameworks where the frameworks can support those multiple slots?

 

Yes, a framework provides a cost discount. If one or more Multipowers with anywhere from 2 to 200 variable cost slots, all attacks, can freely combine those 2 to 200 attack powers into a single Combined Attack (and nothing in 6e appears to preclude this, although it was an issue in 5e), then what specific balance issue is addressed by preventing the STR from one slot for Growth and a second for Density Increase from both enhancing STR at the same time? What is unique to those abilities that enhance STR which requires this very specific rule.

 

Or could it be that this is a holdover from the 5e concept that two or more powers from the same framework could not be used in a multiple power attack (a combined attack in 6e) and should have been removed given that restriction was removed in 6e?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I think the rule needs to be made framework specific. It doesn't make sense for Multipowers for the reasons Hugh has pointed out. However, there is some cause for concern with VPP's.

 

Say you have a 60 Pool, 60 Control VPP with the "cosmic" Advantages.

It is certainly possible to build slots with (-1) in Limitation to get the Real cost down to 30. As a result, the character could use 60 Active Growth & 60 Active Density simultaneously. Because of this, I don't see a problem enforcing the rule for 2 powers within the same VPP. But there is no equivalent case to be made for Multipower.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

Christopher, where so you get the idea that Lockout is primarily meant for MultiPower or other Frameworks? It wouldn't even make sense for many fixed slot multipowers where the pool is only big enough to run one power at a time anyway (with the exception of items that can be thrown and thus not used in HtH until it is retrieved). Do you have anything to support that statement?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

I think the rule needs to be made framework specific. It doesn't make sense for Multipowers for the reasons Hugh has pointed out. However, there is some cause for concern with VPP's.

 

Say you have a 60 Pool, 60 Control VPP with the "cosmic" Advantages.

It is certainly possible to build slots with (-1) in Limitation to get the Real cost down to 30. As a result, the character could use 60 Active Growth & 60 Active Density simultaneously. Because of this, I don't see a problem enforcing the rule for 2 powers within the same VPP. But there is no equivalent case to be made for Multipower.

 

For VPP's, I'd enforce a maximum AP rule. You can have 30 DI and 30 Growth, but no more than 60 AP total. And similarly, you can't have a 12d6 Blast and a 12d6 Flash, each with a -1 limitation, and use them in a combined attack. 60 AP is your limit. I'd probably base that limit on the greater of pool and max AP from the control cost, though. If the pool is 30 points with a 60 AP maximum, they need to be able to use 60 AP, and if the pool is 60 points with a 30 AP maximum, then being able to use a lot of little powers was the whole point.

 

That said, campaign maxima in other places also need to be observed. Sure, your VPP or Multipower could have one slot of Max Defense (eg. +20/+20 resistant protection) to use when you don't wish to attack. It doesn't mean I'll allow it when your character has campaign max, or even campaign norm, defenses when not using that slot.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Help with Adding Damage

 

It seems to me that using powers from multiple MP's is primarily a game feel issue and is only imbalanced if unequally applied. If PC's get to use them that way, so do the NPC's, and vice versa. I can see how such uses could easily turn into a battle of the giants and how that would be inappropriate in some campaigns, but I see no reason to have this as a universal rule.