DumDum Ammunition

[Christopher]

When building a firearm, there is quite often a selection of three ammunition types with specialities avalible:

Standard Ammo.

Just what you normally load.

I hero terms, just the Weapons DC in normal Killing Damage

 

Armorpiercing Ammo:

Ammo designed to work well against protected targets.

In hero: The same amount of DC, but with an Armor Piercing Advantage

 

High Damage, Low Penetration Ammo (HDLPA):

Afaik not a official name/acronym, but something I'll be using here. This is ammunition that is espcially good at doing damage agaisnt unprotected targets, but also rather weak against armor.

Examples: Expanding/DumDum Bullets

 

Now making the last ammunition type is a problem. The only way I know of is to make the DC bigger, but apply Reduced Limitation. I hope that some genre book has some advantage for that, but I also thought about it myself. Let's see if my ideas bring us anywhere:

 

The Tradeoff:

As with any advantage, this one is a bit of a gamble: The weapon has the potential to do more damage against the right target, but less against the wrong targets.

In this case the tradeoff is: More Damage against unarmored targets, less against armored targets.

 

Abstract mechanics:

And the first thing this advantage will do, is to reduce the amount of dices you throw.

My idea is to boost the body damage before defenses, but also double any Resistant Protection that applies.

As the value of the Advantage defines how many dices you loose and you need more body before defense, the amount you boost the damage by is direclty related to how expensive the advantage is.

Also the increased body damage should affect Knockback and Stun Calculation.

It is primarily for Killing Attacks. It makes little sense for normal damage attacks.

 

For +1/4:

The amount of dices drops to 80%.

4d6 (60 Base Points; 14 avg. Body; 24 max) melt down too 3d6 (45 Base Points; 10.5 avg. body; 18 max)

So it would need just +50% to catch up (16/27).

Flat out doubling the body might be a better approach (21/36), it means in effect you get 50% more body for the same amount of DC.

On the other hand resistant Protection is doubeled.

 

For +1/2:

The amount of dices drops by 66%.

4d6 melt down too 2.5d6 (40 base Points; 8.75 avg. body; 15 max)

This time a doubling is needed just to get it close to the original (17.5/30).

A 2.5 multiplier (24 avg; 37 Max) is in effect a 70% Increase in body vs. doubeled Resistant Defenses.

 

Judging from the ways they scale, a heroic campagin with 12 DC attacks would propably be met by a 4-8 Resistant Defense.

Without armor and the +1/4 variant the damage would just be 50% higher.

With 4 armor the normal version does 10 after defense and the +1/4 with doubling does 13 Body.

With the top armor (8 Resistant Def) the normal version does 6 after defenses while the 1/4 with doubling does 5.

When 12 would be the top (a 1:1 rDEF to DC ratio), the damage would be 2 and 0 body instead.

 

 

Any thoughts about that or any pre-existing Advangates in the Setting Books about that amunition?

[phoenix240]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Int Drain!

 

What?

[Beast]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Dark Champions 5th ed covers all types of ammo

problem is you would need to run it as a agent level game where the GM and what skills,perks,talents you have determine what ammo you can get

as the points can get hairy

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Int Drain!

 

What?

What do you want to say with that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

What do you want to say with that?

 

Presumably to get someone to ask that question. Or maybe he got hit by a dum dum and doesn't know what he's saying. Dum dum. Dumb dumb. Humour. Geddit?

 

Dum dum = increased DC (or maybe Stun Multiplier) reduced Pen, doesn't it? That makes the active points higher, but the real cost similar. It may not be a perfect solution but in heroic games the point cost does not matter much.

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Presumably to get someone to ask that question. Or maybe he got hit by a dum dum and doesn't know what he's saying. Dum dum. Dumb dumb. Humour. Geddit?

That joke makes even more sense in german. Or word for dumb is "dumm" - and they are both spelled the same.

 

Dum dum = increased DC (or maybe Stun Multiplier) reduced Pen' date=' doesn't it? That makes the active points higher, but the real cost similar. It may not be a perfect solution but in heroic games the point cost does not matter much.[/quote']

That works in most systems (I even noted that as a possible solution), but maybe there is something like a Resource Pool involved.

Or what if the Gun is best built with a Multipower, each ammo type being one slot?

 

I know one Setting that has such an incredible amount of ammunition types (that can be combined), about the only way to properly built weapons is a VPP. And HDLPA is the only one of them I can't make with an advantage right now.

[Sean Waters]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

The problem is this: you want to do more damage to an unarmoured target. The only way you can increase the damage is to increase the active points. You COULD use autofire, I suppose...

 

This:

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (20 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Can only use autofire to hit single target; -0), 64 Charges (+1/2) 20 Active and Real points

 

This gets you 2x5=10 DCs of damage for 20 points. Even if you add 20 points for +10 OCV that only works out at 40 active points, which is the cost of 8DCs of damage normally AND it is less effective against armoured targets. That averages 5x2=10 Body, whereas 8DCs of killing average 9.

 

Messy, but worth considering.

[Lucius]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

The problem is this: you want to do more damage to an unarmoured target. The only way you can increase the damage is to increase the active points. You COULD use autofire, I suppose...

 

This:

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (20 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Can only use autofire to hit single target; -0), 64 Charges (+1/2) 20 Active and Real points

 

This gets you 2x5=10 DCs of damage for 20 points. Even if you add 20 points for +10 OCV that only works out at 40 active points, which is the cost of 8DCs of damage normally AND it is less effective against armoured targets. That averages 5x2=10 Body, whereas 8DCs of killing average 9.

 

Messy, but worth considering.

 

The extra OCV can even have a Limitation that it's not for determining to-hit, only to count autofire

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary prefers smart bombs to dum dum bullets

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

The problem is this: you want to do more damage to an unarmoured target. The only way you can increase the damage is to increase the active points. You COULD use autofire, I suppose...

 

This:

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (20 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Can only use autofire to hit single target; -0), 64 Charges (+1/2) 20 Active and Real points

 

This gets you 2x5=10 DCs of damage for 20 points. Even if you add 20 points for +10 OCV that only works out at 40 active points, which is the cost of 8DCs of damage normally AND it is less effective against armoured targets. That averages 5x2=10 Body, whereas 8DCs of killing average 9.

 

Messy, but worth considering.

That only works as long as the Weapon has no charges itself and I don't want to Autofire HDLP Ammo. Wich is why I think an advantage would be better.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Was wondering whether dum-dums might best be simulated by additional limited damage

 

+1/2D6 KA (only if target has less than 3rPD), +1/2D6 (only if target has 0rPD)

 

So dum-dum ammunition does not add an advantage but actually adds damage that will only be effective if the target is wearing light or no armour.

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Was wondering whether dum-dums might best be simulated by additional limited damage

 

+1/2D6 KA (only if target has less than 3rPD), +1/2D6 (only if target has 0rPD)

 

So dum-dum ammunition does not add an advantage but actually adds damage that will only be effective if the target is wearing light or no armour.

That again brings us to the "more AP required" problem.

 

But you got me thinking:

APG I has the Proportional Advantage (you get more power when a Conidtion is met).

For a +1/4 with a very common condition (target not armored) it would do 1.5 times chareracter points of effect (advantage not included.

 

Example was +10 STR, Propotional (for +1/2; doubling with Very common condition):

It gives +10 STR normally and +20 STR when the codition is met.

 

Applying the same to a 12 DC attack power:

4d6 (60 Base) becomes 2.5d6 (40 Base) with a +1/2 Advantage. Without the Advantage kicking in it does 2.5d6. With it, it does 80 Base Points of effect (I think) or 5d6+1.

I tested the math with a +1/4 variant, but thatwas mearly a +7 AP net result (a +1 for the KA).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

That again brings us to the "more AP required" problem.

 

I am not quite getting what you are aiming at here in workable terms (though everyone else seems to - I need a remedial class!)

 

So, looking at having weapons and ammo. If you have a rifle that can take three types of ammo and you want to build it so that regardless of the kind of ammo, you have the same AP?

 

So, for example, you need to build a rifle as 8D6 then add

 

1 - normal ammo - +4D6

2 - armour piercing ammo - +1/2 advantage (up to 40 AP)

3 - dum-dums - +2D6 (if <6rPD), +2D6 (if <3rPD), +4D6 (if 0 PD)

 

All of these would have similar Active Points.

 

The ammo would then be usable across a range of weapons all of which might have different amounts of base active points...

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

I am not quite getting what you are aiming at here in workable terms (though everyone else seems to - I need a remedial class!)

 

So, looking at having weapons and ammo. If you have a rifle that can take three types of ammo and you want to build it so that regardless of the kind of ammo, you have the same AP?

Exaclty that is my Aim.

 

Right now the only way to simulate HDLP Ammo is to increase the overall damage, then limit it. Considering that weapons also tend to have a lot of Limitaitons, just aiming at the Real Cost for Balancing doesn't helps.

 

I want a 12 DC Rifle having the same AP regardless of wich of the three ammo types is used. Hence an advantage that simulates "more damage overall, but less effective against armor".

[Ragitsu]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

 

What is better versus a dog-sized spider: full metal jacket, or hollow-point?

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Okay, is this to improve a piece of equipment or another power? Because if it's a piece of equipment the best thing to do is probably to get a DC or two worth of applicable skill levels and then limit it with Reduced Penetration and whatever limitations you need to make it act like ammo.

 

If it's for a power, just give it the extra DC. AP are only a rough guideline of power performance, Reduced Penetration on the whole power with some extra DCs isn not going to break anything Even if it's for a Multipower, you can put the extra DCs outside of the multipower give it lockout on the other slots in addition to the reduced penetration and it should cost about the same as a slot.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

I want a 12 DC Rifle having the same AP regardless of wich of the three ammo types is used. Hence an advantage that simulates "more damage overall' date=' but less effective against armor".[/quote']

 

I guess my question then is whether you are looking to build a weapon that is unique to the character or something that would be generally available in the game and where the ammo might be swapped between characters and used with a variety of weapons.

 

I am now presuming the former whereas all my earlier comments presumed the latter...

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

I guess my question then is whether you are looking to build a weapon that is unique to the character or something that would be generally available in the game and where the ammo might be swapped between characters and used with a variety of weapons.

 

I am now presuming the former whereas all my earlier comments presumed the latter...

 

Doc

My way to simualte a book weapon that has been loaded with AP-Ammo is rather simple:

4d6 equals 3d6, Armor Piercing.

I simply take the Active Point value the guns attack has and built an attack with Armor Piecing for the same (or slightly less) Active Points.

 

Now I would like to do the same with HDLP-Ammo. Just using an advantage to properly model this (potentially) more powerfull attack.

[Sean Waters]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

My way to simualte a book weapon that has been loaded with AP-Ammo is rather simple:

4d6 equals 3d6, Armor Piercing.

I simply take the Active Point value the guns attack has and built an attack with Armor Piecing for the same (or slightly less) Active Points.

 

Now I would like to do the same with HDLP-Ammo. Just using an advantage to properly model this (potentially) more powerfull attack.

 

Maybe that is the wrong way around. You can not increase Hero DC without increasing AP (except with the messy autofire thing). The ammo that does the most damage to an unarmoured target is dum dum. Taking these two things, then logically unmodified damage values should simulate dum dum, normal ammo should be AP and AP ammo should be AVAD, or somesuch?

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Maybe that is the wrong way around. You can not increase Hero DC without increasing AP (except with the messy autofire thing).

That AP and DC are linked is obvious, as both are based on one another.

 

I think you meant "you cannot increase the Number of dice thrown/body possible without increasing AP". I know that. I want to find a way around that Problem.

 

The ammo that does the most damage to an unarmoured target is dum dum. Taking these two things' date=' then logically unmodified damage values should simulate dum dum, normal ammo should be AP and AP ammo should be AVAD, or somesuch?[/quote']

Definitely no.

[Sean Waters]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

......

 

Definitely no.

 

Well, that is a way around the problem. Probably the only way around the problem, so you are stuck with it.

[Christopher]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

Well' date=' that is a way around the problem. Probably the only way around the problem, so you are stuck with it.[/quote']

I aim to solve it, not avoid it.

I want to be able to compare and convert between 12 DC normal, 12 DC Killing, 12 Killing with Armor Piercing and 12 DC Killing with HDLP.

 

The closest I got so far is the Proportional Advantage.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: DumDum Ammunition

 

I aim to solve it' date=' not avoid it.I want to be able to compare and convert between 12 DC normal, 12 DC Killing, 12 Killing with Armor Piercing and 12 DC Killing with HDLP.The closest I got so far is the Proportional Advantage.[/quote']If that's your goal that's cool, but I don't think it actually models ammo, even in a "cinematically realistic" way. A high velocity, armor piercing round is more DC than the average target shootiing practice round. The fact that we can use th AP Advantage and play with the numbers to make them the same DC doesn'y make that model accurate.