Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Anyone got any idea what happens when a SPD 5 character starts dodging on Segment 3' date=' gets hit with a SPD drain anyway, and does not take his next action until Segment 6? Do the dodge bonuses stop when he gets his new phase or stop when he would have had his old one?[/quote']

 

I dunno... there's just something deeply counter-intuitive to me about the idea of a guy s l o w i n g d o w n' date=' but not only remaining [i']harder[/i] to hit, but remaining harder to hit for a longer period of time...

Like I said earlier:

The lower speed is never an advantage. It means you are stuck with your action a lot longer.

Why that is a penalty is epscially obvious with a Block. Let's take a action sequence between Segments 4 and 8. The character is attack 4 times in this sequence and has to Block for this entire time.

 

SPD 6 guy:

Block in Segment 4:

Two Block attempts, one at -0 and one at -2

Block again in Segment 6:

Two Block attempts, one at -0 and one at -2

 

SPD3:

Block in Segment 4:

One Block at -0.

One at -2.

One at -4.

One at -6 (read: -20%, -40%, -60%).

 

Where is the advantage?

The 1 END spend less? How exactly does this compare to all the advantages?

 

 

Let's take a more extreme example:

SPD 6 vs. SPD 3 guy.

S6 forces S3 to abort his Phase in Segment 4.

S6 then goes on and takes a recovery in Segment 6. He stands there, with half-dcv, no contstant defense powers, no CSL and half called shot penalties. And he get's his entire REC in STUN and END back. S3 guy can do nothing to prevent it.*

 

If the fight as S6 vs. S6 or even S5 vs S6, taking a Recovery in mid-combat is a lot less likely.

 

 

Other approach:

S3 guy acts before S6 in Segment 4.

S6 does something that force S3 to abort his phase in segment 8.

That means S3 can't abort again before Segment 8, his DEX and can't act (as opposed to react) again before Segment 12.

On Segment 6 S6 could choose to hit him with an AoE, and S3 could do nothing to avoid it. S6 could do any maneuver or attack that does not involve a OCV vs. DCV contest and S3 could do nothing to avoid it.

S6 could even choose to take three Recoveries in Sequence (Segments 6, 8 and 10), and S3 could do nothing to prevent it.*

 

 

*This isn't a bug. It's the "he is toying with you" area. The enemy can dispatch you "effortlessly" - not because he needs so little damage output, but because he has the leisure time to recover any END he spends. And you have literally no chance to bring down his STUN, because he can recover it at his leisure.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I understand the idea that a lower SPD is less advantageous than a higher SPD, but the issue is when the CV modifiers end. If it is 'when you next had an opportunity to take a phase, well, that can lead to oddness too. For example a SPD 4 character (acting on segments 3, 6, 9 and 12) would be well served, if he wanted to Haymaker, by delaying his segment 3 action to segment 4. Then he gets normal CV up until he takes the action (which resolves on segment 5) and on segemnt 6 he loses his DCV modifier, so if he wants to Haymaker again he is better off delaying until segment 7. if all his actions are Haymakers then he only spends 8 out of the 12 segments with a -5DCV (as opposed to all of them). By delaying he makes himself less vulnerable.

 

Then we have dodge oddness. Same character, SPD 4. Takes an action on segment 3 then aborts to a dodge on segment 4. When does his increased DCV end? If the answer is 'when he takes his next phase, that is not until segment 9, so by taking an aborted action i.e. being forced to act in haste, he is getting more segments of protection. Or is it segment 6 when he would have been able to take his next action if he had not aborted, or is it 'after 3 segments', which is how long he dodges for if he takes actions 'on time'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

COMPLETE ASIDE: What does happen to a SPD 4 character who Haymakers on a delayed segment 5? He starts the action which resolves on segment 6. Does he lose his next phase? Can he delay it? Does the action resolve then he immediately gets another action?

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I understand the idea that a lower SPD is less advantageous than a higher SPD' date=' but the issue is when the CV modifiers end.[/quote']

When you next take your phase, including:

Delaying your phase (at the point you woudl normally take it).

Aborting to something else.

Taking it early - Hip-Shoot, that other optional APG maneuver, "going first because of succcessfull block".

Just taking it when it normally happens.

 

For example a SPD 4 character (acting on segments 3' date=' 6, 9 and 12) would be well served, if he wanted to Haymaker, by delaying his segment 3 action to segment 4.[/quote']

A haymaker is not something you do just in normal combat.

You do them in very limited timeframs of opportunity - when your target is stunned, entangeled or the like. Any delay makes it only more likely to be interrupted by someone else. More likely the enemy is able to abort again.

While it is a possible exploit, it's popably unuseable in actual gameplay.

 

Then he gets normal CV up until he takes the action (which resolves on segment 5) and on segemnt 6 he loses his DCV modifier' date=' so if he wants to Haymaker again he is better off delaying until segment 7. if all his actions are Haymakers then he only spends 8 out of the 12 segments with a -5DCV (as opposed to all of them). By delaying he makes himself less vulnerable.[/quote']

And with higher SPD he would not have to delay to be less vulnerable. He would simply be. Wich also means less chance for things to go wrong.

 

Then we have dodge oddness. Same character' date=' SPD 4. Takes an action on segment 3 then aborts to a dodge on segment 4. When does his increased DCV end? If the answer is 'when he takes his next phase, that is not until segment 9, so by taking an aborted action i.e. being forced to act in haste, he is getting more segments of protection. Or is it segment 6 when he would have been able to take his next action if he had not aborted, or is it 'after 3 segments', which is how long he dodges for if he takes actions 'on time'.[/quote']

As above:

When he takes his next phase in Segment 9.

Or when he aborts to something else. Once he can again abort in Segment 6.

 

No oddness detected.

 

COMPLETE ASIDE: What does happen to a SPD 4 character who Haymakers on a delayed segment 5? He starts the action which resolves on segment 6. Does he lose his next phase? Can he delay it? Does the action resolve then he immediately gets another action?

I think the rules (haymaker or extra Time rules) have something on "delayed phase/extra phase" attacks that last into your next phase for for characters with SPD 7 or more.

Too lazy to look them up now, but they propably use the "no two phases in teh same segment" base rule, so the phase is lost.

 

As for delaying:

You execute the Haymaker until after the last DEX in the next Segment. You cannot take your phase that segment, if you are still executing the one from the previous segment!

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Steve has recently answered several questions regarding the modification of Speed. What is apparent from this is that a character must act on the phase that his current speed dictates immediately from the adjustment. He can choose to hold an action or pass the phase but they must have it. CV Modifers remain ineffect to the character next phase(see previous post on this thread for further details).

 

This meaning that a character with speed 5 who acts in phases 3,5,8,10 & 12 was reduced to speed 3 which act in 4,8 & 12 would act in this manner; If the character aborted to Dodge in segment 4 to avoid a drain but was still struck reducing their spd to 3 the CV modifiers from the dodge maneuver would remain in effect until his phase in Segment 8.

 

However the reverse would be true also. A character with spd 3 who performs a Haymaker in Segment 4 and then his spd is boosted to 5 would act again in segment 5. Their CV modifiers would reset on their next phase which is 5 instead of 8.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Steve has recently answered several questions regarding the modification of Speed. What is apparent from this is that a character must act on the phase that his current speed dictates immediately from the adjustment. He can choose to hold an action or pass the phase but they must have it. CV Modifers remain ineffect to the character next phase(see previous post on this thread for further details).

 

This meaning that a character with speed 5 who acts in phases 3,5,8,10 & 12 was reduced to speed 3 which act in 4,8 & 12 would act in this manner; If the character aborted to Dodge in segment 4 to avoid a drain but was still struck reducing their spd to 3 the CV modifiers from the dodge maneuver would remain in effect until his phase in Segment 8.

 

However the reverse would be true also. A character with spd 3 who performs a Haymaker in Segment 4 and then his spd is boosted to 5 would act again in segment 5. Their CV modifiers would reset on their next phase which is 5 instead of 8.

 

Point of order, if you are SPD 3 and have acted on 4, then get boosted to SPD 5, you can not act again until segment 8 as you can not take an action at both speeds until then. Unless teh rule changed and i did not notice. Perfectly possible.

 

Either way it seems as if your CV modifiers remain in place if you are FORCED to act at a lower SPD and a later segment, so it seems odd that they would not remain in place if you voluntarily and with planning act at a later segment.

 

The approach the rules take seems inconsistent.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Just occasionally, Christopher, I'm sure you miss the point on purpose...

 

When you next take your phase, including:

Delaying your phase (at the point you woudl normally take it).

Aborting to something else.

Taking it early - Hip-Shoot, that other optional APG maneuver, "going first because of succcessfull block".

Just taking it when it normally happens.

 

OK, clear enough, and, as far as i know, what the rules say. My point is that approach does not make much sense mechanically and is logically inconsistent with other rules.

 

 

A haymaker is not something you do just in normal combat.

You do them in very limited timeframs of opportunity - when your target is stunned, entangeled or the like. Any delay makes it only more likely to be interrupted by someone else. More likely the enemy is able to abort again.

While it is a possible exploit, it's popably unuseable in actual gameplay.

 

 

And with higher SPD he would not have to delay to be less vulnerable. He would simply be. Wich also means less chance for things to go wrong.

 

You do understand that is just to illustrate the point, and that you could substitute an offensive strike which gives you a DCV penalty, if Haymakering upsets you?

 

 

As above:

When he takes his next phase in Segment 9.

Or when he aborts to something else. Once he can again abort in Segment 6.

 

No oddness detected.

 

The oddness is that he is dodging from segment 4 right through to segment 9, which means that the system allows you to dodge for a longer period than you normally could if you take the action early, but, apparently not if you want to add extra segments onto the end of the action. The rule may be clear enough but it is logically inconsistent.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Either way it seems as if your CV modifiers remain in place if you are FORCED to act at a lower SPD and a later segment, so it seems odd that they would not remain in place if you voluntarily and with planning act at a later segment.

 

The approach the rules take seems inconsistent.

I ask again:

What is preventing your from Dodging again?

Wich wierd rules interpretation leads you to the idea that using one Dodge from Segment 4-8 is somehow superior to one Dodge from 4-6 and one from 6-8?

 

Because I can't find one single reason, except for the 1 extra END you spend more. Wich isn't going to be a gamebreaker and can propably be handwaved away.

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Point of order' date=' if you are SPD 3 and have acted on 4, then get boosted to SPD 5, you can not act again until segment 8 as you can not take an action at both speeds until then. Unless teh rule changed and i did not notice. Perfectly possible.[/quote']

Sorry I forgot that rule of Speed Change, you are correct that if your speed changes you can not act until your original speed and new speed have both had phases. I wonder how this works if the character who had his speed changed had it changed again before they could act. Would they have to wait for all 3 speeds to have phases or only there previous and present?

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I wonder how this works if the character who had his speed changed had it changed again before they could act. Would they have to wait for all 3 speeds to have phases or only there previous and present?

I am certain there is something in the APG I about it. But for the sake of easyness I would say:

Until you actually had a phase on that SPD, you always only consider the original SPD and the current.

Once you had the phase on your current SPD, it becomes the Original one.

[Lucius]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

And I say: SPD changes take effect only on post-segment 12.

 

I don't care if that's not Rules as Written

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I can write that down, and then it would be

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I understand the idea that a lower SPD is less advantageous than a higher SPD' date=' but the issue is when the CV modifiers end. If it is 'when you next had an opportunity to take a phase, well, that can lead to oddness too. For example a SPD 4 character (acting on segments 3, 6, 9 and 12) would be well served, if he wanted to Haymaker, by delaying his segment 3 action to segment 4. Then he gets normal CV up until he takes the action (which resolves on segment 5) and on segemnt 6 he loses his DCV modifier, so if he wants to Haymaker again he is better off delaying until segment 7. if all his actions are Haymakers then he only spends 8 out of the 12 segments with a -5DCV (as opposed to all of them). By delaying he makes himself less vulnerable. [/quote']

 

This is "analysis in a vacuum". Delaying a segment passes the initiative to his opponent, and means one more segment during which any of his opponents can act to prevent the haymaker's success.

 

Then we have dodge oddness. Same character' date=' SPD 4. Takes an action on segment 3 then aborts to a dodge on segment 4. When does his increased DCV end? If the answer is 'when he takes his next phase, that is not until segment 9, so by taking an aborted action i.e. being forced to act in haste, he is getting more segments of protection. Or is it segment 6 when he would have been able to take his next action if he had not aborted, or is it 'after 3 segments', which is how long he dodges for if he takes actions 'on time'.[/quote']

 

I read it more as "he continues to bob & weave longer before having any opportunity to choose a different tactic". Your issues tend to vanish if we stop thinking of combat in discrete sections (which we have to do, to some extent, for playability) and instead envision a fluid flow of actions. Should the same character, who Delays to Grab a target, only get his STR to maintain the hold for 3 segments?

 

COMPLETE ASIDE: What does happen to a SPD 4 character who Haymakers on a delayed segment 5? He starts the action which resolves on segment 6. Does he lose his next phase? Can he delay it? Does the action resolve then he immediately gets another action?

 

He is still taking an action on segment 6, so that replaces the action he would otherwise have had on Segment 6. That's one more reason Haymakers can be a pain for the attacker.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

And I say: SPD changes take effect only on post-segment 12.

 

I don't care if that's not Rules as Written

Technically it is RAW, at least for positive changes. By default there is simply no Rule to change SPD in the turn.

 

But what about Drain SPD? Wouldn't it cause a problem for your games that it fades just before it takes effect?

[dmjalund]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I'm putting this semi-related thought here:

 

how about if you are using STR to maintain a grab on someone, you have to spend your END on the grabee's phase.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I'm putting this semi-related thought here:

 

how about if you are using STR to maintain a grab on someone, you have to spend your END on the grabee's phase.

On the other hand, you don't have to spend end on your phases (as normal for Constant attacks). On on the targets phases, when he does not try to escape.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I am certain there is something in the APG I about it. But for the sake of easyness I would say:

Until you actually had a phase on that SPD, you always only consider the original SPD and the current.

Once you had the phase on your current SPD, it becomes the Original one.

 

 

That's the way I would rule it, if it came up.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

This is "analysis in a vacuum". Delaying a segment passes the initiative to his opponent' date=' and means one more segment during which any of his opponents can act to prevent the haymaker's success.[/quote']

 

My view is that CV modifiers should apply until you actually do something different. If your next phase comes round and you have not declared a change you HAVE to take an action, but otherwise whatever you were doing keeps happening. That is not RAW but makes more sense to me.

 

On the Haymaker point if you delay starting your Haymaker for a phase then the opponent does not knoww hat you are up to (and gives you the option of a change of mind if they moe away). I was trying to illustrate the point that the way the rule is written encourages delaying for certain actions.

 

Generally I do not encourage delaying actions at all as it makes combat administration more of a pain and have considered introducing a house rule that any action that you take delayed suffers a CV penalty (maybe -1 OCV) because you are breaking your own natural rhythm.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

My view is that CV modifiers should apply until you actually do something different. If your next phase comes round and you have not declared a change you HAVE to take an action' date=' but otherwise whatever you were doing keeps happening. That is not RAW but makes more sense to me.[/quote']

So instead of just having a phase less with the DCV penalites of a Haymker, you also have a phase more of your Dodge Bonus?

Sounds like you are making it worse, not better.

 

Effectively there would be no way for an enemy to force you to use that held action for defense. After all you still retain the entire bonus.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

There is no way for an enemy to force you to use a held action anyway, you can just put them in a position where it is a good idea. The point of holding an action is so that you can see what someone else does and react to it, or so that you can . If someone is faster than you and you are both holding they will run up against another action before you do, and will have to lose that phase if they do not take it.

[psyber624]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I think the issue with delaying to dodge goes away if you remember that the higher speed character, whose next phase came up "sooner" and therefore "lost" his dodge bonuses, is still perfectly able to gain them back by aborting his held action to dodge. Since that always goes first he has the same "time frame" of dodge available as someone who is getting their dodge from segment 4 to segment 9, he just also has the option to NOT dodge after segment 6 and do something else instead.

 

In the same vein, if you allow someone with a "held action" to just keep their OCV bonuses from their previous action, you are effectively letting them GAIN more from dodge than they should, because now they DONT have to abort their action to dodge, they can instead just hold their action till later (ie when their opponent attacks) and still have the dodge bonus. Instead, they should loose the dodge bonus (how the rules currently work, if my understanding is correct) and should then decide if they want to keep dodging, or use their higher speed to attack instead, NOT gain the benefits of both.

 

And on the haymaker argument, holding your haymaker is more about timing it so that it will actually connect (target has already aborted, is stunned, entangled, the like) than about minimizing the phases you take the minuses to your DCV.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I've always had this vision for Hero of building a large part of the arbitrary rules from the character creation rules.

 

By arbitrary rules, I mean things like 'Bleeding' or 'Aborting' i.e. things that people have decided should be in a rule set, but have rules attached to them that do not necessarily make independent sense, or logically flow from another rule.

 

You could get rid of aborting and delaying completely (at least delaying outside your segment). That means that characters HAVE to take actions when their turns come up, on the segment they come up, and any associated modifiers would last until they next take an action. That would mean if you are SPD 3, you act on 4.8.12, and if you don't act on any of those segments, you remain in the state you were previously in and lose the action.

 

If you want to build a character that CAN abort to dodge, or delay an action, or even sneak in an early atatck, buy more SPD, and limit it.

 

For example, if you want a 3 SPD character, but you want flexibility as to when you act, buy 6 SPD, with the limitation 'Can only act on 3 segments per turn'. That allows a character to act on any of the SPD 6 segments, but only 3 of them per turn, allowing them to shake up the order of their actions.

 

I know that will never happen as it would make a lot of character builds a lot more complicated, but I can dream, can't I?

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I've always had this vision for Hero of building a large part of the arbitrary rules from the character creation rules.

[...]

You could get rid of aborting and delaying completely (at least delaying outside your segment). That means that characters HAVE to take actions when their turns come up, on the segment they come up, and any associated modifiers would last until they next take an action. That would mean if you are SPD 3, you act on 4.8.12, and if you don't act on any of those segments, you remain in the state you were previously in and lose the action.

And how exactly is that different from RAW? Because it sounds like exactly the same thing.