Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

[Theron]

So, last week, I played Champions for the first time in several years (it's been even longer since I've GMed). I was playing a Martial Artist who, between Martial Dodge, base DCV, and Levels could reach an obscenely high DCV. All well and good.

 

I was engaged with another martial artist who had a higher DEX, so I aborted to a Dodge as soon as he attacked me in the first phase (we were the same speed) and he couldn't hit me. When the next phase came up, the GM declared he was going to delay.

 

When my action came up, we rolled off and he won the DEX roll, thus interrupting my action. But this brought up a bit of controversy at the table, namely, since he was acting before my next action, was my DCV from the Martial Dodge and levels still in place? At the time, I knew what my next move was going to be, but I hadn't actually declared it yet. The GM seemed to feel my DCV should reset before I execute my next action but this seems hinky. As it was, he rolled a 17 and missed me, but it just feels wrong.

 

My question is, how do you (the Hero Collective) think should this have played out? To my mind, if you delay, then act before I've declared my action, then the Martial Dodge is still in play. It doesn't just go away at the beginning of my Phase, it stays in place until I execute my next action, at which point my OCV and DCV values get modified. At the very least, I should have had the opportunity to declare my action, set my skill levels before his attack goes off (or declare an abort to another Martial Dodge or a Block to keep him from doing anything useful).

 

As my character is bound to attract more Martial Artist attention in the future, I'd appreciate any input on this.

[Tasha]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

IIRC your Dodge and Skill level allocation ends when your dex comes up on the Segment that you could take your next phase. It's pretty clear in 6e2 that is how it is supposed to be. As with anything, a GM can decide to be more merciful and allow a dodge to stand till the Character takes their phase. Or you could compromise and say that the Dodge ends when the character's dex comes up on the segment that they could take their phase, but allow the allocation of Skill levels to remain (mostly because allocating Skill levels take no time and the PC could have kept the allocation on their phase and still took the full phase delay).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

According to the rules as written, CV modifiers apply from the time they kick in, until the beginning of the character's next Phase. So not at the character's initiative on their next Phase... at the beginning of that Phase. After all, if they lasted until your DEX on that Phase, that would mean that having a lower DEX would actually be a sort of advantage when Aborting, because it would mean that your Dodge (or what have you) would last longer than the Dodge of a higher-DEX character with the same SPD.

 

Now having said that, I often personally run it that modifiers just last from one action to the next, for the sake of simplicity. But this really only works well for one-on-one fights. With multiple combatants, I use the rules as written.

[pinecone]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

So, last week, I played Champions for the first time in several years (it's been even longer since I've GMed). I was playing a Martial Artist who, between Martial Dodge, base DCV, and Levels could reach an obscenely high DCV. All well and good.

 

I was engaged with another martial artist who had a higher DEX, so I aborted to a Dodge as soon as he attacked me in the first phase (we were the same speed) and he couldn't hit me. When the next phase came up, the GM declared he was going to delay.

 

When my action came up, we rolled off and he won the DEX roll, thus interrupting my action. But this brought up a bit of controversy at the table, namely, since he was acting before my next action, was my DCV from the Martial Dodge and levels still in place? At the time, I knew what my next move was going to be, but I hadn't actually declared it yet. The GM seemed to feel my DCV should reset before I execute my next action but this seems hinky. As it was, he rolled a 17 and missed me, but it just feels wrong.

 

My question is, how do you (the Hero Collective) think should this have played out? To my mind, if you delay, then act before I've declared my action, then the Martial Dodge is still in play. It doesn't just go away at the beginning of my Phase, it stays in place until I execute my next action, at which point my OCV and DCV values get modified. At the very least, I should have had the opportunity to declare my action, set my skill levels before his attack goes off (or declare an abort to another Martial Dodge or a Block to keep him from doing anything useful).

 

As my character is bound to attract more Martial Artist attention in the future, I'd appreciate any input on this.

Sounds reasonable...but when you fight a faster MA ist you should Block... Me I'd let the DCV last till you took an action...anything else does seem hinky...

[Theron]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

According to the rules as written' date=' CV modifiers apply from the time they kick in, until the beginning of the character's next Phase. So not at the character's initiative on their next Phase... at the [i']beginning[/i] of that Phase. After all, if they lasted until your DEX on that Phase, that would mean that having a lower DEX would actually be a sort of advantage when Aborting, because it would mean that your Dodge (or what have you) would last longer than the Dodge of a higher-DEX character with the same SPD.

 

Now having said that, I often personally run it that modifiers just last from one action to the next, for the sake of simplicity. But this really only works well for one-on-one fights. With multiple combatants, I use the rules as written.

 

Useful and good to know. Thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

According to the rules as written' date=' CV modifiers apply from the time they kick in, until the beginning of the character's next Phase. So not at the character's initiative on their next Phase... at the [i']beginning[/i] of that Phase. After all, if they lasted until your DEX on that Phase, that would mean that having a lower DEX would actually be a sort of advantage when Aborting, because it would mean that your Dodge (or what have you) would last longer than the Dodge of a higher-DEX character with the same SPD.

 

Now having said that, I often personally run it that modifiers just last from one action to the next, for the sake of simplicity. But this really only works well for one-on-one fights. With multiple combatants, I use the rules as written.

 

Total Edit, because I decided to go look it up specifically:

 

A Character's Phase begins on their Dex on a Segment in which they act. 6E2 p16.

 

Their levels, from aborting or allocating, remain in place from when they Abort/Allocate to their next Action - their Dex on their Phase.

 

It is very specific as to when a Character's Phase begins - and it is Not the top of the Segment.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Total Edit, because I decided to go look it up specifically:

 

A Character's Phase begins on their Dex on a Segment in which they act. 6E2 p16.

 

Their levels, from aborting or allocating, remain in place from when they Abort/Allocate to their next Action - their Dex on their Phase.

 

It is very specific as to when a Character's Phase begins - and it is Not the top of the Segment.

 

Crud. "Phase" is defined (both earlier on 6E2 page 16, and in the Glossary on 6E1 page 26) as "A Segment on which a character can perform an Action." Combine that definition with the info on 6E2 page 38 about The Duration of Combat Value Modifiers: "Modifiers that alter a character's CV remain in effect from when they take effect until the beginning of the character's next Phase." That certainly makes it sound like it does mean top of the Segment.

 

I may have to tweak a sentence in Champions Complete...

[Theron]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Given what ghost-angel pointed out (which my GM also mentioned via email), this seems to put us back at square one. My DCV is stratospheric, so the bad guy delays. On my action, he uses his delay, but I haven't actually taken my action yet. So, I guess I lose the benefit of the Martial Dodge, but what about the CSLs? It just feels weird.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Given what ghost-angel pointed out (which my GM also mentioned via email)' date=' this seems to put us back at square one. My DCV is stratospheric, so the bad guy delays. On my action, he uses his delay, but I haven't actually taken my action yet. So, I guess I lose the benefit of the Martial Dodge, but what about the CSLs? It just feels weird.[/quote']

 

If he delays until your DEX, he has to beat you in a DEX Roll vs. DEX Roll Contest in order to go first. He doesn't get to go before you automatically. (And that one I'm positive about. )

[ghost-angel]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Crud. "Phase" is defined (both earlier on 6E2 page 16' date=' and in the Glossary on 6E1 page 26) as "A Segment on which a character can perform an Action." Combine that definition with the info on 6E2 page 38 about The Duration of Combat Value Modifiers: "Modifiers that alter a character's CV remain in effect from when they take effect until the beginning of the character's next Phase." That certainly makes it sound like it [i']does[/i] mean top of the Segment.

 

I may have to tweak a sentence in Champions Complete...

 

Let me take a moment to express my complete and utter hatred of the Null Zone (aka the F You Zone) that Hero has managed to create between the Start Of A Segment and a Characters Phase (Dex) where you're character is effectively "no longer in combat in any meaningful way" because they lose all allocations, held actions, and anything else that 'resets' on their Action in the order.

 

It's very stupid, it's very annoying and can be cleaned up with one phrase: You get 1 Full Phase worth of Actions in any Segment, period, even if you have Held Actions.

 

I don't suddenly stop Dodging, forget I put SLs in DCV, or because I want to After X But Before Y just because of Hero's arbitrary division of time. However easy it makes combat go.

 

Remember - if I'm Holding I'm literally Doing Nothing - can't even allocate CVs - that's penalty enough IMO. If I Dodge, I want to Dodge until I can Go Again And Stop Dodging. If my Speed is slower than my Attackers I should not suddenly get More Dodge Time because I don't have A Phase but Mr. Speed does.

[Theron]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

If he delays until your DEX' date=' he has to beat you in a DEX Roll vs. DEX Roll Contest in order to go first. He doesn't get to go before you automatically. (And [i']that[/i] one I'm positive about. )

 

Yes. As noted above, he did in fact win the DEX roll.

 

Our GM has decided thusly for our table:

 

"Your Phase starts as soon as your DEX comes up in the Segment, and at that point, your CSLs go unset and your maneuver mods disappear, regardless of whether you delay your action.

 

However, you cannot be interrupted on your phase until you've had a chance to set your levels."

 

So, in my case, knowing that Green Dragon was going to take a whack at me, before I could get off my intended Nerve Strike, I would have been able to put some extra CSLs into Defense before he tried to boot me in the head, but I would lose the +5 from Martial Dodge (unless I aborted to another one).

 

Whether or not this fits the rules as written, I think it will suit our group just dandy.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Whether or not this fits the rules as written' date=' I think it will suit our group just dandy.[/quote']

 

And that's all that really matters.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Let me take a moment to express my complete and utter hatred of the Null Zone (aka the F You Zone) that Hero has managed to create between the Start Of A Segment and a Characters Phase (Dex) where you're character is effectively "no longer in combat in any meaningful way" because they lose all allocations' date=' held actions, and anything else that 'resets' on their Action in the order.[/quote']

 

I thought you just said they don't lose allocations and such at the top of the Segment. Am I misunderstanding you?

[Theron]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

And, for what it's worth, all of this discussion reminds me of a conversation I once saw back on Red October. Wayne Shaw had posted a lengthy set of rules questions for 4e. As was his style, he thoroughly discussed each issue, so it was a monumental string of posts. In one of them, he mentioned that there was a rule that a Martial Art had to have at least ten points of maneuvers (or something like that).

 

Said question brought out a whole flock of folks, including Aaron Allston (who'd written Ninja Hero) expressing complete and utter ignorance of that particular rule. That was the point when I came to the conclusion that no one can completely know the Hero System. Not even Steve. It is vast. It contains multitudes.

 

Well, maybe Steve.

[gojira]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

"Your Phase starts as soon as your DEX comes up in the Segment, and at that point, your CSLs go unset and your maneuver mods disappear, regardless of whether you delay your action.

 

However, you cannot be interrupted on your phase until you've had a chance to set your levels."

 

 

That's a pretty good rule, I may steal it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I thought you just said they don't lose allocations and such at the top of the Segment. Am I misunderstanding you?

 

derp, sorry, sorry:

 

They don't. They do lose Held Actions though... I'm apparently much more dead tired/worn out than I thought.

 

The Null Zone is where the Character loses their Held Action (but not their SL Allocations/CV Modifications) - and I managed to lump it all together in my brain. ergh.

 

Anyway, carry on, my rantings not withstanding - one should not lose anything because a new Segment has started. Too many rules some days.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Just to get the facts straight:

It was time for your Phase (your DEX). You had not declared any activity for that phase yet (literally before you had time). The enemy decides to attack you.

 

For this situation:

I would not require a DEX roll at all.

I agree that CSL and DCV-modifiers should have unset.

 

But you also are able to simply abort to dodge again (with the phase in this segment). And during aborting you can set your CSL the same way they were before.

Aborting goes always first. Even against held actions, Aborting goes first.

So top result I can see is "keeping you on the defensive" (forcing you to abort every phase). Wich will only work as longs as his endurance is up to the task (Dodge: 1 or 0 END; Attack: Propably more*). And you don't do stuff like Blocking.

 

*keep in mind here that you are informed of the "intensity" of his attack. So he actually has to attack with enough force (wich means END-cost) to be a treath. If he does not, the GM should tell you in advance or he has to find some way to feign his attack (acting roll or the like; penalty for repeating).

 

 

A totally different thing from what you describe is interrupting. This is when you have already declared (your character just started executing) an action. In your example you did not get that far.

For this the enemy has to win a DEX-Contest to go before you.

 

Asuming the action you declared is not a Attack Action, you can always abort. You have to declare that abort when you are informed of the attack (before the dex contest). Your abort still goes first without any dex roll. But you loose your current phase (the one you were interrupted at) and your next phase (the one you aborted too).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Yes. As noted above, he did in fact win the DEX roll.

 

Our GM has decided thusly for our table:

 

"Your Phase starts as soon as your DEX comes up in the Segment, and at that point, your CSLs go unset and your maneuver mods disappear, regardless of whether you delay your action.

 

However, you cannot be interrupted on your phase until you've had a chance to set your levels."

 

So, in my case, knowing that Green Dragon was going to take a whack at me, before I could get off my intended Nerve Strike, I would have been able to put some extra CSLs into Defense before he tried to boot me in the head, but I would lose the +5 from Martial Dodge (unless I aborted to another one).

 

Whether or not this fits the rules as written, I think it will suit our group just dandy.

 

It seems like a reasonable approach to me. I don't think your Dodge should continue as long as you choose to Delay your action. You have, at your DEX, decided what you will do. You could choose to continue to Dodge. You didn't. You instead chose to delay your action, so you have stopped dodging and are now watching for your opportunity.

 

I could see prohibiting the setting of your levels until you decide what to do, or requiring you indicate you are setting your levels (and/or taking any other zero phase action) while still delaying your remaining action for the phase. I'd have no problem with you deciding to reallocate your levels as a zero phase action in response to Green Dragon attempting to interrupt your action, but the levels would have to be allocated before you know whether he wins the DEX roll-off. That is, you can assign your levels knowing he is going to try to beat you to the punch, but not after it is determined whether he beat you to the punch. Similarly, he has to assign his levels before the roll-off, so he can't decide they go to DCV if he loses the roll off and OCV if he wins it.

 

They don't. They do lose Held Actions though... I'm apparently much more dead tired/worn out than I thought.

 

The Null Zone is where the Character loses their Held Action (but not their SL Allocations/CV Modifications) - and I managed to lump it all together in my brain. ergh.

 

Anyway, carry on, my rantings not withstanding - one should not lose anything because a new Segment has started. Too many rules some days.

 

I agree with this as well. The character has a held phase, and we play that it stays Held, just like he stays Dodging, until his DEX comes around. He still can't take two actions in the same segment, but he could use the Held action at a higher DEX than his own.

 

It was time for your Phase (your DEX). You had not declared any activity for that phase yet (literally before you had time). The enemy decides to attack you.

 

For this situation:

I would not require a DEX roll at all.

I agree that CSL and DCV-modifiers should have unset.

 

Here, I disagree. Either:

 

(a) Green Dragon chose to attack before his opponent's phase, so his opponent's CSL and DCV modifiers should still be in place (he has not had time to stop dodging or reset his CSL's), or

 

( his opponent stopped dodging (resetting his CSL and DCV modifiers at his DEX in the phase), in which case he has started his attack if that was his chosen action, and Green Dragon must win the DEX contest to have his Held Action take place before his opponent completes the attack.

 

There is no period of time between ceasing to dodge and commencing to attack during which Green Dragon can attack without either the prior action or the current action of his opponent being relevant. If there were such a clear window of opportunity, it would clearly be taken advantage of by every character.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

(a) Green Dragon chose to attack before his opponent's phase, so his opponent's CSL and DCV modifiers should still be in place (he has not had time to stop dodging or reset his CSL's), or

 

( his opponent stopped dodging (resetting his CSL and DCV modifiers at his DEX in the phase), in which case he has started his attack if that was his chosen action, and Green Dragon must win the DEX contest to have his Held Action take place before his opponent completes the attack.

 

There is no period of time between ceasing to dodge and commencing to attack during which Green Dragon can attack without either the prior action or the current action of his opponent being relevant. If there were such a clear window of opportunity, it would clearly be taken advantage of by every character.

That would only leave you two options:

a) You attack, the dodge still counts the enemy can act freely afterwards.

You wait until he actually declare something. You can interrupt him then. If he decides to abort he looses two phases

 

But I think the game needs a "option 3", a way to force them to loose only one phase:

Simply delaying (= focussing your attention on this enemy), to force an abort.

Option a is simply no way.

Option b means the enemy could ignore it and hope to win the dex contest. Or loose two actions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

That would only leave you two options:

a) You attack, the dodge still counts the enemy can act freely afterwards.

You wait until he actually declare something. You can interrupt him then. If he decides to abort he looses two phases

 

But I think the game needs a "option 3", a way to force them to loose only one phase:

Simply delaying (= focussing your attention on this enemy), to force an abort.

Option a is simply no way.

Option b means the enemy could ignore it and hope to win the dex contest. Or loose two actions.

 

I'm not exactly sure what result you are looking for. If I am the attacker, when my DEX comes up, I can choose to act or delay. The drawback to delaying is that it passes the initiative to the opponent. He could also choose to delay (and we stand there looking at each other). My hesitation means that I now need to succeed in opposed DEX rolls to regain the initiative. He's slower, so he must contend with the opposed DEX roll regardless. [both subject to defensive actions always going first, of course.] The drawback to acting at my DEX is that the results of my opponent's last action remain in effect.

 

Now, if we follow RAW, both characters holding their actions must specify what they are holding for, either a specified lower DEX or a specified event. "I'll hold and decide what to do later, whenever I feel like it" requires GM permission. If it causes problems, perhaps that permission should be denied. The example of holding an action implies this permission has been granted, as the event Defender wishes to Hold his action for is undefined. For my games, "generic hold" has not been a problem.

 

If your objective is to allow one character to force another to declare his action, then I don't believe such a maneuver is needed. If you both delay, you both delay. I can't force you to either fight or flee - the choice of waiting for my action remains open to you. And vice versa. You suggested an acting roll to fake the opponent out, tricking him into believing you were committing to an action you were not actually committing to. That also seems a reasonable rule. He believes you are attacking and can decide if he wants to use his held phase or not.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I'm not exactly sure what result you are looking for. If I am the attacker' date=' when my DEX comes up, I can choose to act or delay. The drawback to delaying is that it passes the initiative to the opponent. He could also choose to delay (and we stand there looking at each other). My hesitation means that I now need to succeed in opposed DEX rolls to regain the initiative. He's slower, so he must contend with the opposed DEX roll regardless. [both subject to defensive actions always going first, of course.'] The drawback to acting at my DEX is that the results of my opponent's last action remain in effect.

 

Now, if we follow RAW, both characters holding their actions must specify what they are holding for, either a specified lower DEX or a specified event. "I'll hold and decide what to do later, whenever I feel like it" requires GM permission. If it causes problems, perhaps that permission should be denied. The example of holding an action implies this permission has been granted, as the event Defender wishes to Hold his action for is undefined. For my games, "generic hold" has not been a problem.

 

If your objective is to allow one character to force another to declare his action, then I don't believe such a maneuver is needed. If you both delay, you both delay. I can't force you to either fight or flee - the choice of waiting for my action remains open to you. And vice versa. You suggested an acting roll to fake the opponent out, tricking him into believing you were committing to an action you were not actually committing to. That also seems a reasonable rule. He believes you are attacking and can decide if he wants to use his held phase or not.

 

This is where the optional (I believe it was in Fantasy Hero and Hero System Skills) Feint Skill would come in handy - a Successful Feint will convince an opponent you are doing a specific action that you are not actually committing to.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

This is where the optional (I believe it was in Fantasy Hero and Hero System Skills) Feint Skill would come in handy - a Successful Feint will convince an opponent you are doing a specific action that you are not actually committing to.

Hero System Martial Arts also has three version of Feint Skill:

A new, Optional Feint Skill

Using "Slight of Hand" Skill

A DCV Drain, Images or OCV on Skill roll + half Phase.

 

It also has 3 additional version for optional "Feint" Combat Maneuvers, but those only deal with OCV Bonus/DCV penalty.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

You know, I've mulled it over a couple of days, and I'm still confident that the a Phase is distinct from a Segment, and that the way the core rules tend to talk about them supports that.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

You know' date=' I've mulled it over a couple of days, and I'm still confident that the a Phase is distinct from a Segment, and that the way the core rules tend to talk about them supports that.[/quote']

Yes, of course they are different:

One turn is 12 Segments.

You have phases in a Number of Segments equal to your SPD, distributed as equal as possible.

If multiple Characters have thier Phases in the same Segment, thier DEX decides who takes his Phase first, second, etc.

 

Don't see how one could mix both up.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Well, someone up thread seemed to think otherwise. *shrug*