Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

We've always played it, without thinking about it too closely, that your phase lasts until you next take a phase: given that you can delay a phase more or less indefinitely that means you can keep dodging without having to declare new actions. Unlike some games if you delay a phase, it does not affect where you act in future phases.

 

As for interrupting actions, you either have to decide that:

 

1. An interrupt in fact allows you to get in just before the opponent acts, or

2. An interrupt allows you to take and complete an action after the opponent has STARTED their action but before they complete it.

 

In the first case, the maneouvre modifiers for your last action would apply, in the second, the maneouvre modifiers for your new action would apply (you have, after all, started the action). I would go with 2., on the 'Haymaker argument': a Haymaker takes an additional segment (but still only a phase) and can clearly be interrupted AFTER the action is started but before it is completed, and the modifiers for Haymaker would apply.

 

Now I am very much against messing about with delayed actions unless:

 

1. You are doing so to coordinate an attack or

2. You are delaying until a specific time or event

 

...just on the basis that it gets bloody aggravating if everyone is trying to wait out their opponents.

 

So, applying all of that to the original problem, I would have rules (I think) that the dodge ends when you start your new phase, but the interrupt takes effect before you complete the action you are taking, and uses the CV modifiers for whatever action you declared, i.e. I think the GM probably got it right.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

We've always played it' date=' without thinking about it too closely, that your phase lasts until you next take a phase: given that you can delay a phase more or less indefinitely that means you can keep dodging without having to declare new actions. Unlike some games if you delay a phase, it does not affect where you act in future phases.[/quote']

Actually 6E2 20 says it does:

"Generally, Holding an Action does not affect a character’s Combat Value. If a character Blocks, or uses some other Combat Maneuver that affects his CV, in a Phase, and in his next Phase declares a Held Action, at that point he loses the CV modifiers from the Maneuver. Just because he chooses to delay his Action doesn’t mean his Phase hasn’t occurred, and that ends the effect of a Combat Maneuver. However, his Combat Skill Levels, if any, remain allocated as they were until he changes them."

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Actually 6E2 20 says it does:

"Generally, Holding an Action does not affect a character’s Combat Value. If a character Blocks, or uses some other Combat Maneuver that affects his CV, in a Phase, and in his next Phase declares a Held Action, at that point he loses the CV modifiers from the Maneuver. Just because he chooses to delay his Action doesn’t mean his Phase hasn’t occurred, and that ends the effect of a Combat Maneuver. However, his Combat Skill Levels, if any, remain allocated as they were until he changes them."

So, going from that I think you can say:

CV Modifiers apply until the point where you normally take your phase* - wichever is earlier.

CSL apply until they are re-set, you are stunned/K.O., or something else disabels/ignores them.

 

 

*things like Hipshot allow you to take your phase earlier. Of course then they would stop at your improved DEX.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Tell that to him, Christopher. Unless I completely misread him; if so please ignore...

 

Crud. "Phase" is defined (both earlier on 6E2 page 16' date=' and in the Glossary on 6E1 page 26) as "A Segment on which a character can perform an Action." Combine that definition with the info on 6E2 page 38 about The Duration of Combat Value Modifiers: "Modifiers that alter a character's CV remain in effect from when they take effect until the beginning of the character's next Phase." That certainly makes it sound like it [i']does[/i] mean top of the Segment.

 

I may have to tweak a sentence in Champions Complete...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Tell that to him' date=' Christopher. Unless I completely misread him; if so please ignore...[/quote']

 

You misread me.

 

The 6E rules do use a definition for "Phase" that -- by itself -- implies that "Phase" is simply a sub-set of "Segment;" that "Phases" are simply the Segments on which your character has actions. That simplified definition is what's currently in Champions Complete.

 

I'm saying I need to tweak the manuscript to make it clear that "Phase" does indeed mean something slightly different than simply "a Segment you act on." I need to make sure CC doesn't inadvertently "change" how "Phases" work.

[gojira]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Just being clear: You're saying you intend to word CC such that your Maneuver's OCV/DCV bonuses last until your Dex starts your Phase?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Just being clear: You're saying you intend to word CC such that your Maneuver's OCV/DCV bonuses last until your Dex starts your Phase?

 

Yes, just like it is in 6E2. There was no intention of changing the rule from the status quo.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Ah, see, I read "Crud" as you saying "Malarkey." Everything followed from there. Sorry.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Ah' date=' see, I read "Crud" as you saying "Malarkey." Everything followed from there. Sorry.[/quote']

 

Gotcha. No, I meant "crud" as in "crud, I see from this that I need to change a sentence in Champions Complete."

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I'm saying I need to tweak the manuscript to make it clear that "Phase" does indeed mean something slightly different than simply "a Segment you act on." I need to make sure CC doesn't inadvertently "change" how "Phases" work.

Let's see how short I can describe it

1 Turn is split into 12 Segements*

A character has phases** in a Number of Segments equal to thier SPD, distributed as equally as possible across the turn (as seen in SPD-Chart)

If multiple Characters have thier Phases in the same Segment, thier DEX decides who takes his Phase first, second, etc.

During a phase you normally execute one or more actions.

 

*1 Segment is about 1 Second, so a turn is about 12 Seconds or 5 Turns are about one Minute.

**Phases are the moment you decide and execute your action. It is equal to what is described as Turn in many other games.

 

 

Actions:

Full phase actions: Using a Full Phase action ends your phase.

Half-phase actions: You can take two Half-phase actions per phase. Taking the second HP-action ends your phase

Attack action: A special form of Half-phase action that usually involves an attack roll. An attack action automatically ends your phase, even if it is the first action in your phase. Taking an attack action also prevents your from aborting for the rest of this Segment.

Zero Phase action: These actions require very little time and you can takes as many as you like, but can still only be executed during a characters phase. They can be executed before a half- or full-phase action and between two half-phase actions, but never after you ended your phase. You generally cannot perform the same 0-Phase action twice in a phase (setting CLS twice, changing selection of a Multipower Twice, Turning a Power On and Off).

Action that takes no time: These can always be executed always, regardless of whose phase it is. They still need opposing DEX Rolls or must be aborted too, in oder to intercept somebody elses action.

[Balabanto]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Just being clear: You're saying you intend to word CC such that your Maneuver's OCV/DCV bonuses last until your Dex starts your Phase?

 

I sure hope so. I've been running the game this way since 1981.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Aaaaaaaand.... it turns out I was just having a brain freeze. It is in fact already correct in the Champions Complete manuscript (perhaps unsurprising, since I too have always played it that way), and I was just drinking Drano upthread, apparently...

 

So, uh... everything's under control. Situation normal. We're fine... we're all fine here, now. Thank you. How are you?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I like my rules to be robust and consistent, but also to make sense. If you are dodging, and you are SPD 3, you get the DCV bonus for longer than if you are SPD 5 and dodging?

 

If you are SPD 5 and DEX 20 and dodging on segment 3, then before your next phase on segment 5, you get hit by a SPD drain, and your next phase is delayed to a later segment, does your DCV bonus end when your phase would have ended, or when your new phase starts? If the latter then it does not make much sense to get your DCV bonus for longer if the delay is forced but not if the delay is voluntary. If, on the other hand, your DCV bonus stops on segment 5 (even though you don;t actually get to have another phase until (say) segment 6, that is odd too: you just stop dodging, do you?

 

Just saying.

[Christopher]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I like my rules to be robust and consistent' date=' but also to make sense. If you are dodging, and you are SPD 3, you get the DCV bonus for longer than if you are SPD 5 and dodging?[/quote']

The SPD 5 guy isn't getting less. He is getting more. He get's the bonus of the DCV and is able to act/abort to something more usefull much earlier than the SPD 3 guy.

SPD 3 dodging looses 1/3 of thier turn

SPD 5 looses 1/5 of their turn.

 

If we talk about SPD 3 vs SPD 6, then the SPD 3 guy can benefit from a single dodge twice as man segments as the SPD 6 guy. Or in a way the SPD 6 guy has to pay twice the 1 END for his dodge.

But at that difference we are somewhere at "175 point mook" vs "400 point Superhero", so I don't think he can't afford the 1 END.

Also see it from the other way: When the SPD 3 guy dodges, he can't do anything but the dodge for 4 Segments.

If the SPD 6 guy dodges, he can abort to something else*, attack or do a thousand other usefull things after only 2 Segments.

 

 

*Simple mook killer combo: Force them to abort to dodge. Then hit them with a AoE before they are able to abort again. Or force them to Dive for Cover, hit them while their DCV's are abysmal.

 

If you are SPD 5 and DEX 20 and dodging on segment 3' date=' then before your next phase on segment 5, you get hit by a SPD drain, and your next phase is delayed to a later segment, does your DCV bonus end when your phase would have ended, or when your new phase starts?[/quote']

Of course.

 

If the latter then it does not make much sense to get your DCV bonus for longer if the delay is forced but not if the delay is voluntary.

We could say that if you immediately decide to "continue the dodging" you don't have to pay the end cost for that maneuver again. Then there would be no loss for you.

But if you delay you decided that you don't just want to continue your dodging. You don't want to be on the defense anymore. You get the benefit of being able to act later, so you should not continue to get your bonus for dodge as well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Aaaaaaaand.... it turns out I was just having a brain freeze. It is in fact already correct in the Champions Complete manuscript (perhaps unsurprising, since I too have always played it that way), and I was just drinking Drano upthread, apparently...

 

So, uh... everything's under control. Situation normal. We're fine... we're all fine here, now. Thank you. How are you?

 

We're good.... Crisis averted.

[gojira]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Uh, uh... negative, negative. We had a reactor leak here now. Give us a few minutes to lock it down. Large leak, very dangerous.

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I'm coming a little late to the discussion but from how I have read 6th Edition I come to these conclusion.

1) A players phase begins on his Dex in a Segment he acts in.

2) Aborting means you use your Next Phase early but only for Defensive actions.

i.e. Character is Spd 3 and aborts in Segment 5 to Dodge, the character loses there actions in segment 8 as they took their actions early but the CV modifers remain in effect until his Phase in Segment 12 (On his Dex) because as he aborted this turn his phases are on segments 4,5 & 12

3) Holding/Delaying an action is an action in a Phase and there for resets the CV from maneuvers (CSL/SL are not maneuvers)

4) A character can not have 2 actions/phases on a Segment. That explains the Null Zone but the point is made that with GM permission (I would give this) that a character can use the held action at the beginning of a phase to increase effective Dex for delcaring a Held Action.

5) Aborting/Held Actions can be done at anytime before dice are rolled.

i.e. After the opponent has declared what actions he is taking but before the dice are rolled.

6) CSL are set and do not reset at the beginning of your Phase. They only change when the character changes them or the character is rended helpless.

--------------------------------------

Now to the original question put forward by Theron:

 

As the GM won the Dex roll his phase occurs before Theron. As Theon has not had his Phase he retains any modifers to CV that he had from his last phase.

You can't Abort to an action if you made the DEX roll. If you want to abort this must be done before the roll because by making the roll your character is committing to the contest. These rules are state 6E2 p19.

 

From my reading of the rules thats the ruling I would make as a GM.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Anyone got any idea what happens when a SPD 5 character starts dodging on Segment 3, gets hit with a SPD drain anyway, and does not take his next action until Segment 6? Do the dodge bonuses stop when he gets his new phase or stop when he would have had his old one?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

Anyone got any idea what happens when a SPD 5 character starts dodging on Segment 3' date=' gets hit with a SPD drain anyway, and does not take his next action until Segment 6? Do the dodge bonuses stop when he gets his new phase or stop when he would have had his old one?[/quote']

 

I don't know whether there's an "official" answer or not, but as a GM, I would rule that it stops when he would have had his old one, for basically two reasons. One, he began Dodging on his previous SPD, so it seems logical for the Dodge to "resolve" on his previous SPD. Two, allowing the Dodge to continue until 6 would benefit him, and it seems counter-intuitive for a SPD Drain to help you...

[Ternaugh]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I don't know whether there's an "official" answer or not' date=' but as a GM, I would rule that it stops when he would have had his old one, for basically two reasons. One, he began Dodging on his previous SPD, so it seems logical for the Dodge to "resolve" on his previous SPD. Two, allowing the Dodge to continue until 6 would benefit him, and it seems counter-intuitive for a SPD Drain to help you... [/quote']

 

I think that the "benefit" argument is a bit shaky. Say we were talking about the character performing a Haymaker before being drained. Your solution would imply that the penalty for Haymaker would also "resolve" on his previous SPD, obviously benefiting the character.

 

The thing to remember here is that a Phase is conceptually different from a Segment, and really should be seen as encompassing all of the time between actions. Effectively, a SPD 2 character would have (roughly) 6 second actions, while a SPD 3 character would have (roughly) 4 second actions. We abstract that a Phase starts on a particular Segment, and for the purposes of game play, assume that the actions take place then. But do we really believe that a SPD 3 character can run 12 meters in 1 second, freeze in place for 3 seconds, and then continue? Someone hit by a SPD drain s l o w s d o w n. Let the effects of the last maneuvers run until the next action to represent that.

 

JoeG

[Sean Waters]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

To an extent (just to play devil's advocate) although I agree with Ternaugh, I would like to make one point of order that i think may cause confusion for those who are new to hero and, indeed, those who are not...losing SPD slows you down only in terms of how many actions you can take.

 

I know that seems obvious, but there is a difference between taking less actions and moving more slowly. If I were to try and fight someone and I was moving at 'slo-mo speed', it would be hard for me to hit them and easy for them to hit me: that would imply, in game terms, a reduction of OCV and DCV, as well as, probably DEX (which they used to be based on in 5e and before) in additon to SPD.

 

Anyway, that is a bit of an aside.

 

Looking at this again, if you dodge on segment 3, your phase for SPD 5, and you are then SPD drained so your next phase does not occur until segment 6, and your combat modifiers for your last phase end when your phase WOULD have ended (i.e. segment 5) then (presumably) your CV modifier reset to zero at segment 5 and remain there until you take a phase at your current SPD even though, at your current SPD, your maneouvre modifiers would last more segments than they did at your previous SPD. The fact that they carry into your current SPD at all would seem to argue in favour of the whole action taking, in effect, longer. Similarly if you had done a Haymaker and were suffereing a DCV penalty, it seems odd that the penalty goes away before you next act. You have either (subject to the above caveat) slowed down or you haven't.

 

This may seem like a minor point, but it feeds back into the 'consistent approach' I was talking about. If it is logical for CV modifiers to last for more segments when you are forced to act later, it seems strange that planning to act later would not also make the modifiers last longer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I envision the character as Dodging (bobbing and weaving) until his next opportunity to choose to do something else. Therefore, he would continue to dodge until the start of his next phase. If that's delayed by a SPD drain, the Dodge continues until he has an opportunity to act - Segment 6 in the example given. If, somehow, he is able to act earlier than he expected (probably not RAW for a SPD Aid, but a DEX Aid could move his DEX forward) his Dodge ends sooner than expected.

 

If he were blocking, he could keep attempting to Block (with the cumulative penalties) until his next action, whether or not delayed. If he was taking a recovery, he would have to make it to the start of his next phase, and a delay would mean longer before he could benefit from that Recovery.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

I dunno... there's just something deeply counter-intuitive to me about the idea of a guy s l o w i n g d o w n, but not only remaining harder to hit, but remaining harder to hit for a longer period of time...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

As Sean already pointed out, he has not slowed down. His DEX, OCV and DCV are all unchanged. What has changed is the speed with which he may take, or change, his actions. He recovers slower from taking a swing, takes longer to identify his target and focus an attack, essentially suffers from a higher level of inertia. But his capability in combat has not been impaired at all, other than the reduction to his opportunities to act.

 

If his last action had been a Haymaker or a Grab, rather than a Dodge, would you hold that his DCV penalties expire based on his old, rather than his new, Speed (he recovers from that fully committed strike at his old SPD, rather than the new one)? This impacts all CV modifiers, not just positive ones.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Delaying and Interrupting - How Do You Play It?

 

As Sean already pointed out, he has not slowed down. His DEX, OCV and DCV are all unchanged. What has changed is the speed with which he may take, or change, his actions. He recovers slower from taking a swing, takes longer to identify his target and focus an attack, essentially suffers from a higher level of inertia. But his capability in combat has not been impaired at all, other than the reduction to his opportunities to act.

 

If his last action had been a Haymaker or a Grab, rather than a Dodge, would you hold that his DCV penalties expire based on his old, rather than his new, Speed (he recovers from that fully committed strike at his old SPD, rather than the new one)? This impacts all CV modifiers, not just positive ones.

 

I understand the mechanics of it, and concede that's the better approach mechanically. I'm just saying that this is one of those areas in which -- in SFX terms -- Adjustment Powers and SPD can interact in ways that produce odd-seeming results.