Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Ha! Found the right template.

 

This is my (admittedly, incomplete) Experienced Spider-Man.

 

Spider-Man

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 40

35 DEX 75

30 CON 40

20 BODY 20

28 INT 18

14 EGO 8

15/35 PRE 5

16 COM 3

 

26/36 PD 1

26/36 ED 5

7 SPD 25

16 REC 0

60 END 0

64 STUN 4

 

12" RUN 12

2" SWIM 0

16" LEAP 6

Characteristics Cost: 262

 

Cost Power

12 unstable molecule costume: Armor (6 PD/6 ED); OIF (-1/2)

17 Clinging (70 STR)

24 Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%; Requires A DEX Roll (-1/4)

24 Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%; Requires A DEX Roll (-1/4)

10 +20 PRE; Defensive only (-1)

90 webshooters: Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots 16 clips of 125 Boostable Charges (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; +1 1/4); all slots IIF Fragile (-1/2)

2u 1) EB 12d6; requires str 40 (-1), IIF Fragile (-1/2), real item (-1/4)

4u 2) Entangle 6d6, 6 DEF; IIF Fragile (-1/2)

3u 3) Sight Group Flash 10d6; IIF Fragile (-1/2)

1u 5) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); IIF Fragile (-1/2)

2u 6) FW (10 PD/10 ED) (Opaque Normal Sight); Uses 8 charge (-1), IIF Fragile (-1/2)

1u 7) HA +2d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), IIF Fragile (-1/2)

4u 8) Stretching 12" (60 Active Points); IIF Fragile (-1/2)

2u 9) Swinging 27", x8 Noncombat (37 Active Points); IIF Fragile (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 196

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

4 Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 75 STR vs. Grabs

4 Fast Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, 14d6 Strike

3 Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 13d6 Strike, Target Falls

3 Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 12d6 +v/5, Target Falls

5 Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 16d6 Strike

4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 14d6 Strike

5 Passing Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Disarm, 70 STR to Disarm; FMove

5 Passing Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 12d6 +v/5; FMove

8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

Martial Arts Cost: 49

 

Cost Skill

3 Acrobatics 16-

3 Acting 12- (16-)

3 Breakfall 16-

3 Bugging 15-

3 Climbing 16-

15 +3 with HTH Combat

15 +3 with DCV

20 +5 with DCV; dependent on danger sense (-1/4)

3 Computer Programming 15-

3 Concealment 15-

3 Contortionist 16-

10 Defense Maneuver I-IV

3 Electronics 15-

3 Inventor 15-

3 Mechanics 15-

3 Oratory 12- (16-)

3 AK: New York 15-

3 Paramedics 15-

3 Persuasion 12- (16-)

3 Power 15-

3 PS: Photography 15-

3 PS: Teacher 15-

5 Rapid Attack (HTH)

5 Rapid Attack (Ranged)

3 Scholar

1 1) KS: Arcane And Occult Lore 8-

2 2) KS: Other Superhuman worlds 15-

5 3) KS: The Marvel Superhuman World 18-

3 Scientist

5 1) SS: Chemistry 18- (6 Active Points)

2 2) SS: Biology 15- (3 Active Points)

2 3) SS: Engineering 15- (3 Active Points)

2 4) SS: Physics 15- (3 Active Points)

1 5) SS: weird science 8-

3 Shadowing 15-

3 Stealth 16-

3 Streetwise 12- (16-)

3 Systems Operation 15-

3 Tactics 15-

3 Teamwork 16-

3 Security Systems 15-

Skills Cost: 171

 

Cost Perk

24 Contact: Most of the marvel universe and several characters outside of it (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (x3) (24 Active Points) 11-

12 Reputation: Spider-Man (A large group) 14-, +4/+4d6

Perks Cost: 36

 

Cost Talent

17 Combat Sense (Sense) 15-

3 Lightning Calculator

5 Rapid Healing

4 Speed Reading (x10)

18 Combat Luck (9 PD/9 ED)

50 Danger Sense (general area, any danger, Function as a Sense, Rapid (x10), Targeting Sense) 15-

Talents Cost: 97

 

Total Character Cost: 811

 

Pts. Disadvantage

10 Hunted: Sinister 6 8- (Less Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)

15 Hunted: Wilson Fisk 8- (Less Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)

20 Dependent NPC: Aunt May 8- (Incompetent; Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID)

5 Dependent NPC: Mary Jane Watson 8- (Slightly Less Powerful than the PC)

10 Hunted: J Jonah Jameson is being psychotic again 8- (Less Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)

20 Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing (Very Common, Strong)

20 Psychological Limitation: Protective of innocents (Very Common, Strong)

5 Money: Poor

10 Reputation: He's a menace!, 11-

20 Enraged: Innocents harmed (Uncommon), go 14-, recover 11-

15 Distinctive Features: Fighting Style (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

Disadvantage Points: 150

 

 

Yes, I think a veteran Spider-Man is that dangerous. When aggravated, he will destroy you.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Yeah that's about where mine stands characteristics-wise. Actually, pretty spot on to what I'd probably do. I like it.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I'm still not sure why his webshooters needed a minimum strength to use or why it stuck on some of the powers, but not all of them. That is why Spider-Man was able to eventually topple Firelord.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Superman not showing up immediately drove a lot of Jimmy Olsen's plots.

 

FWIW, I tend to think that Jimmy has a lot in common with Johnny Thunder - they're both normals who get into wacky situations and can summon powerful beings.

that never occurred to me you have a point can someone swing the reptonf for me?

[phoenix240]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

My Superman has 60 STR when he adds the +20 from the Multipower. It's him channeling his Yellow Sun Energy into his strength.

 

OIC, I missed that. Cool, that puts him in the range of Crush and Brickhouse who are two of "strongest beings in the world" as far as the setting goes. So that works.

[phoenix240]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Look, no one has claimed their write up is "The "True" Superman (whatever thats supposed to mean). If you want a Supes write up that won't "die in a house fire" (I guess by standing there and letting himself burn) or one that can fly through the heart of the sun, you can write him up anyway you see fit. But do we have constantly pull this thread off track with all the nerdrage?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

What do people think about the concept of characters who are powerful but have specific vulnerabilities, weaknesses, blind spots, etc. that make teaming up with others a really prudent idea? IOW:

Justice League:

Superman--vulnerable to kryptonite, magic, red sun radiation, moderately susceptible to mental powers, lacking in many specialized skill areas

Wonder Woman--less invulnerable, can be bound and helpless under certain conditions, may lack insight into male-dominated society

Green Lantern--powerless vs. color yellow, ring can be taken away

Martian Manhunter--vulnerable to fire, has some difficulty connecting to humanity

Batman--incredibly skilled and talented but still a mortal man beneath it all, also kind of an a-hole which means you need someone a little more likable around

Aquaman--bake him and dry him and he gets weaker, many of his abilities are highly enviro-centric

Flash--superfast but not superstrong, invulnerable, etc. Can be taken by surprise, etc.

 

I could do the same breakdown for many other "classic" teams. My thought is that this is something that could be readily modeled in Hero, provided the players are willing to play characters with specific or even glaring shortcomings.

[phoenix240]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

What do people think about the concept of characters who are powerful but have specific vulnerabilities, weaknesses, blind spots, etc. that make teaming up with others a really prudent idea? IOW:

Justice League:

Superman--vulnerable to kryptonite, magic, red sun radiation, moderately susceptible to mental powers, lacking in many specialized skill areas

Wonder Woman--less invulnerable, can be bound and helpless under certain conditions, may lack insight into male-dominated society

Green Lantern--powerless vs. color yellow, ring can be taken away

Martian Manhunter--vulnerable to fire, has some difficulty connecting to humanity

Batman--incredibly skilled and talented but still a mortal man beneath it all, also kind of an a-hole which means you need someone a little more likable around

Aquaman--bake him and dry him and he gets weaker, many of his abilities are highly enviro-centric

Flash--superfast but not superstrong, invulnerable, etc. Can be taken by surprise, etc.

 

I could do the same breakdown for many other "classic" teams. My thought is that this is something that could be readily modeled in Hero, provided the players are willing to play characters with specific or even glaring shortcomings.

 

I think it works well in stories but can be problematic in role playing games. As you say, it requires players willing to run characters with shortcomings and accept it when those short coming affect them, even render them helpless/inactive for significant potions of playtime. Fictional characters don't mind. They don't have individuals (and their egos, hopes, etc) behind them to worry about. I've found that several small limitations that impede the character (or add to the overall tension level and their spotlight like Hunted and DNPCs) work better with many groups or at least more smoothly.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Clearly there is a balancing act going on whenever you model characters for an RPG. Is this guy recognizable from his own source material, does he fill that role here in this game, does it represent his abilities well? And generally you won't get a perfect answer to those questions. I'm going to change gears from Champions here.

 

In the 1st and 2nd ed D&D days, people would frequently debate how various fantasy characters should be built. Aragorn is clearly a Ranger, but he can't cast spells and has no animal follower. So is Aragorn a mere 6th level character? Well he does spend all his time fighting orcs... The problem, of course, is that the Fellowship of the Nine are basically the highest level characters of their respective classes in the world. Gandalf begins as the 3rd most powerful Wizard/Druid/whatever he is (after Sauron and Saruman). In the course of the adventure he gains a few levels and surpasses Saruman. Aragorn is the only Ranger we ever see, but his repuation is high and he is the leader of the other Rangers. Boromir is the greatest warrior in the greatest kingdom in Middle Earth. Legolas is awesome. And by the end, the 4 hobbits are the 4 baddest-ass hobbits that there ever were (possibly excluding Bilbo). Does Frodo remain a zero level character through the entirety of the story? Is Gandalf a 4rd level Wizard (because a 5th level Wizard would just cast Fly and leave Orthanc)? Now, with the release of the movies and Legolas jumping around like Spider-Hawkeye, a lot of the lowballing seems to have stopped. But how do you write up these characters? Is everyone 20th level?

 

You also have the problem of incorporating those characters into other game worlds. Unless you really want to replay the Lord of the Rings trilogy again and again, you need to have some method of comparing these characters to others. Does Mr. No-Animal-Companion really suck or does his Ranger specialty class just not get that ability? Perhaps Fly isn't on the list of available spells in Middle Earth. In a closed environment like a novel, someone can be defined as the best without worrying about comparison to external characters. But when you introduce external characters, you need to know how they stack up. In other words, if you define Aragorn as a 6th level Ranger, that's okay as long as there are no 7th level Rangers in his world. But as soon as he is introduced into a world with higher level characters, you need to examine how he fits into that world.

 

Now, perhaps no modification is needed. Stallone from the first Rambo movie clearly fills the role of "baddest guy around". The same with Ash from Army of Darkness, or Michael Myers from Halloween. Each is as tough as you can get in their respective movies. None of them will stand up to Wolverine. It's kind of a shame, because First Blood and Halloween are better movies than Wolverine was. And Army of Darkness was at least fun. But the characters are clearly on a lower tier than superheroes. You lose as much of the character bumping them up to be competitive as you do by leaving them lower powered and in a world where they don't fit.

 

Now, when you are writing up characters from comics, you can go broad or narrow. I can write up Superman from Action Comics #437 in June of 1973. I can get a pretty accurate picture of his abilities from looking at just that comic (note: I have no idea what number Action Comics was on in June 1973, or anything about that book -- I am pulling an example out of my butt). Perhaps all Superman did in that issue was fly around and catch Lois as she repeatedly falls out of helicopters, but I can write that up. That writeup might not have superstrength, or heat vision, or anything beyond flight, but it'll be accurate. Going more broadly, you can make 1973 Action Comics Superman, based on his appearances in that series that year. Or 1970s Superman. Or 1990s DC Animated Superman. However you want to limit it. The more broad an era you use, the more power variations you get, but you also get a better sense of the character as a whole (Superman might not use his heat vision for six months in comics, doesn't mean he doesn't have it). Most people when writing up a character will focus on a particular era or medium with which they are most familiar and best represents the character to them. Some people like Antarctica Krypton and some people like crazy 1950s Krypton. That's okay.

 

The Superman designs I've seen in this thread are the 4th level Gandalfs. They are too weak for my games, and are useless to me. My group of 8th level characters should not sneer at the old wizard and say "Gandalf the Grey? More like Gandalf the Gimp". He doesn't fulfill his role in a traditional D&D game at that power level. Perhaps this is intentional. Perhaps you don't like Gandalf or Lord of the Rings. Perhaps it is the same as having Michael Myers get anticlimacticly cut in half by the T-1000. "Let's dispatch with this Superman loser and get on to telling stories about real heroes, like Defender and Seeker." But I don't think that's the intent here. Again, my problems with the designs I've seen so far are 1) they don't represent the character from any era I know of, 2) they don't represent the character relative to his place in the setting, and 3) it is a weak 250 design. As to the third, if we start out as 250 characters in a world where the villains are no more than 250, then Superman is still underpowered. My character, Punch Man, who has good damage, good defenses, and levels with punch, will trash Superman every time. Superman at starting points is watered down, spread thin. It just doesn't work for me.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Well, I think you've explained your position fairly well, massey. I think there has been an effort to explain why low-pointed writeups are being done by particular persons to suit their particular campaign parameters. I suppose the D&D analogy would be if the most powerful NPCs in that setting were under 10th level, then Gandalf at a relatively low level might make some sense. Yes, there will be some verisimilitude issues, but I think that's always the case with fiction-to-RPG conversions(think about how endless a debate about the relative attractiveness of some characters would be...).

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Well' date=' I think you've explained your position fairly well, massey. I think there has been an effort to explain why low-pointed writeups are being done by particular persons to suit their particular campaign parameters. I suppose the D&D analogy would be if the most powerful NPCs in that setting were under 10th level, then Gandalf at a relatively low level might make some sense. Yes, there will be some verisimilitude issues, but I think that's always the case with fiction-to-RPG conversions(think about how endless a debate about the relative attractiveness of some characters would be...).[/quote']

 

There's always a lot of room for discussion in regards to specific numbers. One person may think Superman needs PS: Reporter at 14-, while another says 17- and still another says 11-. 25" of Flight and then a megascale slot vs 55" of Flight and then a megascale slot. Which is right? Shrug. It will be highly campaign dependent. And so I understand that a lower level Superman might work just fine for someone's campaign. But I don't see these writeups as being particularly good for actually playing Superman. If the game allows people to have 12D6 attacks (as this one appears to), then his 6D6 heat vision is going to do very little to anyone. If the game allows people to have 12D6 attacks, then he's going to get stunned every time he gets shot by such an attack vs ED. To be fair, I will write up and post a 250 Superman when I get home.

 

Related to your above JLA example, I think such a game could be done very well. It may require more mature players, or perhaps a player controlling multiple characters at once. If I'm playing Superman, I understand that in exchange for getting to be twice as many points as everyone else, I will be sidelined on occasion so everyone else can shine. This might be when I pull out the Aquaman or Hawkman character sheet, or it may be when I go pick up the pizza for everyone else.

 

I've often thought that a good JLA game could be done where all characters were built on 1000 points by the GM. Superman will of course have more raw power, while Aquaman might have you scratching your head to find something to spend those last 200 points on. The trick would be for the GM to balance the game so all the players could enjoy it. If you are playing Aquaman, there should be some aquatic component to at least every other adventure. There should be agents for Batman to beat up. There should be riddles you need someone with a 20- Deduction roll to solve. Yes, Superman, you're smart, but you can't solve this riddle. You need Wonder Woman's lasso of truth to get the location of the secret base from the henchman. We need Martian Manhunter to change shape to infiltrate the enemy starship. One of the alien pods crashed in the sea, go get it Aquaman!

 

My writeup of Superman clearly wastes points. He could be built much cheaper. And his points are tied up in high numbers. His PD is wow. His Str is OMG. But I think he's usable in a group (clearly a group of high powered characters) because of his personality and his limitations. He's got vulnerabilities that let less powerful characters hurt him (with magic or kryptonite or red sun), and that kind of thing is common in his universe. It won't wipe him out, but it negates some of that 75 PD and ED. Likewise he's got psych lims that prevent him from pretty much ever hitting someone full force. Most of the time he's going to be throwing campaign-level dice in damage because he's afraid of killing someone. It doesn't matter if he could break 40D6 with a haymaker and a push, if he's never going to do that. But him having that level of power does give you the option of unleashing Sun-Eaters upon the world, or alien Warworlds that threaten to blow up the solar system, and things like that. And then he can unload and everyone gasps when they realize how powerful Superman really is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I read that story. Spidey was able to put Stun on Firelord. Firelord refrained from evaporating the city (he wanted to get pizza, and the best place for pizza in the galaxy is New York City of course).

 

So I would build Spidey so that he can put Stun on Firelord. Might give Spidey Find Weakness and Firelord no Lack of Weakness. Maybe Firelord has 30 PD and a lot more ED. Plus Spidey rolled well. "80 Stun on 14 dice! Awesome!" And Firelord ran through his END trying to hit Spidey and started burning Stun to shoot at him because he's a jackass and wouldn't wait 2 seconds to take a recovery.

 

I always thought it was more caused by the fact that the writer wanted Spiderman to beat-up Firelord' date=' despite the difference in their power levels (which isn't to say Spiderman's a wimp or anything. Just that he's not on the same level as Marvel's heaviest hitters).[/quote']

 

Who sets power levels? I suggest the writers do. This is, of course, a battle that has been fought before. However, it always strikes me as a bit off to claim the source material is not consistent with the source material. That is a truism, though – there are always outliers. Spidey is able to stand toe to toe with the Hulk in one issue, and struggles with the Kingpin in the next.

 

RPG’s lack this power variability. Is it realistic that Spidey is always the same – never having a great day and never having a bad one – or do the comics have it right that power level can vary from day to day? Also, Spidey and many other published characters are extremely different from RPG characters in that they DO NOT go in with the attitude that they paid for an 18d6 attack so by gosh, that is what they will use. They tend to exercise restraint, and not go in with full power at the outset.

 

I’m not a major Spidey follower, but there is no question his rogues gallery varies widely in power level, and he has taken on some amazing heavy hitters, like:

 

Spidey has two Class 80 bricks(Sandman and Rhino) in his rogues' gallery' date=' and he would routinely beat them up. He's soloed the Sinister Six on occasion.[/quote']

 

80 Marvel tons. I'd convert them at about an 80 Champions Str.

 

I wouldn't.

 

Trying to figure out what are the extreme cases that should be rejected is hard enough but there's also an issue with the escalation of power that most characters go through. Let's not forget that while Spiderman has soloed the Sinister Six he's also had problems fighting The Enforcers, who consist of someone who originally was just a really strong guy (not even superhumanly strong originally), a guy who knew kung fu, and some dude with a rope.

 

And then on top of all that we get into issues of 'proper benchmarks' that don't really need rehashing.

 

So trying to line up the stats on characters (this isn't limited to Spiderman) means agreeing on scale, time period, and even then dealing with lots of inconsistencies within that time period. Frankly I think its something of a small miracle that we even agree on the power sets (and in fact we don't always).

 

 

I’d convert them depending on campaign parameters. If 60 is the top, they’re likely in the 45 – 50 range. If Superman has a 275 STR, these guys should be in the 200’s.

 

But, unquestionably, Spidey has succeeded against both the Rhino and the Sandman more than once before that Firelord story. Can we agree on that? I’m assuming we can. Let’s flow that through the source material.

 

Rhino and Sandman also appeared pretty regularly as opposition for the Hulk. They weren’t as tough as Green Genes, but they were challenging opponents. On numerous occasions, Hulk and Thor have fought to an absolute standstill (myself, I’ve always had a soft spot for their faceoff in the Avengers-Defenders war, which I bought at a tender age), so I suggest those two characters are on the same power footing.

 

And Firelord originated in Thor’s comics – where Thor always handed him his head if they came into conflict.

 

Given those links, it seems reasonable to me that, since Thor can routinely beat Firelord, it’s not outside the realm of possibility that Spidey could, on a good day, defeat Firelord, especially a Firelord who discards his best tactic (area of effect) because it would be “dishonorable”. Once again, a role played character who follows his disadvantages, rather than a PC using the best tactics possible with his player denouncing any suggestion it’s poor role playing with “he’s not THAT honourable” or “using all your powers is not dishonourable”.

 

Clearly, at least one writer/editor combo agreed with that, or a similar, interpretation of the occurunce. And no one has undone it, so it is as much source material canon as early Spidey struggling against "a strong guy, an acrobatic kung fu fighter and a cowboy". It seems like a lot of early Spidey foes weren't all that impressive, actually. An octogearian who could fly. A pudgy old scientist with mechanical arms. A skilled hunter of big game.

 

But Spidey's oppposition seems to have grown over time, and Marvel seemed to have a policy that their characters were of pretty comparable power overall. After all, in his own Issue #1, didn't Spidey fight the FF to a standstill? And it tok all four of them to fight the Hulk, where Gian Man and the Wasp were about equally successful in a similar fight. The same Hulk that is an equal match for Thor, and fought the Sub Mariner on more or less equal footing. And Subby fought both the FF and Iron Man. Thor had a tough time against Magneto and his Brotherhood way back in the JIM days too - just like they were a match for the X-Men.

 

Widely disparate power levels make corssovers pretty dull, and early Marvel loved its crossovers!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Well' date=' I could probably write up a serviceable starting-out GA Superman for maybe 500 points, starting out SA Supes(pre-planet moving) for 650, and maybe one of the more "alpha" versions for 1000 points. They wouldn't be Superman, precisely, but would be a reasonable approximation. Of course, I'd also likely select the version most appropriate for the campaign I was running. The only way I'd write a multi-thousand point version would be if the PCs were also capable of ascending to such heights of epic grandeur.[/quote']

 

Agreed – in a standard Supers game, thousand point NPC’s are just another version of those GM Mary Sue NPC’s who exist to make it clear the PC’s aren’t powerful or important, just lesser lights in the great Universe of the GM.

 

And I disagree' date=' because Superman is literally surrounded by characters his power grade.[/quote']

 

Yup. Whether that grade is based on a standard of 10 – 12 DC or 100 – 120 DC. Unlike the typical D&D game, where the characters begin as raw, wet behind the ears rookies (yet get assigned important and prestigious tasks anyway – where are all the L3 characters while the PC’s are L1?), Supers tend not to grow in power over time in the source material. They get a wild power up, or a massive power down, on occasion, but they tend to have a set power level where they remain. And, as a result, those villains introduced in their first year or two remain credible threats, unlike that half a dozen Orcs when the D&D party is 15th level.

 

I'd actually just like one that wouldn't die in a house fire.

 

Then apply

A character with a Safe Environment Life Support doesn’t take damage from that type ofenvironmental condition' date=' or from a Change Environment that creates that condition. However,he still takes damage from attacks with that special effect due to the sudden system shock. For example, a character who can survive Intense Heat can walk around in the desert without suffering any discomfort or ill effects from the heat, and can tolerate a “Heatwave” created by Change Environment without harm, but still takes damage from fire- or heat-based attacks or being dunked in lava.See Chapter Six of 6E2 for further information.[/quote']

 

on the basis that a normal fire, like a house fire, is an ambient environmental condition, despite being statted out to inflict xd6 Energy Damage. In fact, maybe we should expand Life Support for Supers games to encompass “natural hazards” in general, and maybe even include “normal weapons” at the extreme.

 

Or exercise writer fiat. Superman's susceptibility to Kryptonite should have killed him years ago if it were ruthlessly exploited by a killer DM. Lucky for Supes he has a good GM who views disadvantages/complications as story hooks rather than his license to screw over the character and the player.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

What do people think about the concept of characters who are powerful but have specific vulnerabilities, weaknesses, blind spots, etc. that make teaming up with others a really prudent idea? IOW:

Justice League:

Superman--vulnerable to kryptonite, magic, red sun radiation, moderately susceptible to mental powers, lacking in many specialized skill areas

Wonder Woman--less invulnerable, can be bound and helpless under certain conditions, may lack insight into male-dominated society

Green Lantern--powerless vs. color yellow, ring can be taken away

Martian Manhunter--vulnerable to fire, has some difficulty connecting to humanity

Batman--incredibly skilled and talented but still a mortal man beneath it all, also kind of an a-hole which means you need someone a little more likable around

Aquaman--bake him and dry him and he gets weaker, many of his abilities are highly enviro-centric

Flash--superfast but not superstrong, invulnerable, etc. Can be taken by surprise, etc.

 

I could do the same breakdown for many other "classic" teams. My thought is that this is something that could be readily modeled in Hero, provided the players are willing to play characters with specific or even glaring shortcomings.

 

I think it works well in stories but can be problematic in role playing games. As you say' date=' it requires players willing to run characters with shortcomings and accept it when those short coming affect them, even render them helpless/inactive for significant potions of playtime. Fictional characters don't mind. They don't have individuals (and their egos, hopes, etc) behind them to worry about. I've found that several small limitations that impede the character (or add to the overall tension level and their spotlight like Hunted and DNPCs) work better with many groups or at least more smoothly.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Funny how pretty much every SA JLA story that involved Aquaman always had a waterway, typically with some very useful aquatic animals, somewhere in the scenario – even on a bizarre alien planet. Maybe Aquaman needs 15d6 Luck – only to not show up for scenarios that won’t provide good opportunities to use his powers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Well, my basic idea, which I went into much greater detail with on my EPIC Champions project, was that you could still "balance" really powerful/high-point-total characters, so long as 1)They couldn't do literally everything, 2) there were situations where they were less powerful and 3) there was some reasonably common form of attack that would really knock them for a loop. If you meet those conditions, then they can be obscenely powerful but still dependent on teammates, and the GM can come up with ways to counter them or reduce their ability level if their presence would normally unbalance a scenario.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Well' date=' my basic idea, which I went into much greater detail with on my EPIC Champions project, was that you could still "balance" really powerful/high-point-total characters, so long as 1)They couldn't do literally everything, 2) there were situations where they were less powerful and 3) there was some reasonably common form of attack that would really knock them for a loop. If you meet those conditions, then they can be obscenely powerful but still dependent on teammates, and the GM can come up with ways to counter them or reduce their ability level if their presence would normally unbalance a scenario.[/quote']

 

It can be done. It requires a level of skill, though. If you read those old JLA's, there were sure a lot of Kryptonite, Red Sun Radiation and yellow coloured challenges. And it's funny that, whenever they split up, Martian Manhunter's team was ALWAYS the one challenged with fire. GA should have figured out he needed extra fire extinguisher arrows whenever they paired him up with J'onn!

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

In the old Mayfair DC Heroes game, everyone had Hero Points. The more Hero Points you had, the more crazy things you could do. It was basically a license to cheat. You could spend those points to do more damage, or ignore an attack, or just have things go your way (what are the chances there's a beaker of acid on that shelf for Batman to grab? Spend 10 Hero Points and it's there). You got more Hero Points by successfully completing adventures. So basically when Spidey beat Firelord, it's because Spidey is a major hero who probably has 150 or more Hero Points saved up. Whereas Firelord, despite his cosmic power, is an also-ran who has high stats and great power, but maybe only 50 HP or so because he's not a major character. So Spidey spends HP every round boosting his damage, shrugging off effects, not getting hit. Firelord may spend some as well, but he really needs to save his, because his player knows that he's back into space next session, and he may need those against somebody really dangerous. As a result, Spidey knocks Firelord unconscious, because he has more HP. Once Spidey is finished with the adventure, he gets some of those points back. So he blew 100 of his 150, and he gets 15 for beating Firelord. Great, now Spidey is at 65 HP and it's going to be a rough couple of months as he has to beat up bank robbers and the like to get back to where he's supposed to be.

 

This also explains how no-name crooks can show up once and threaten a hero. They come in and burn through all their Hero Points in the first encounter. After that, Spidey rallies and beats them, so they don't get any HPs back. So the villainous Technicolor Man comes in and blows through his starting 30 HP (doubling his power's effectiveness) and beats up Spidey, knocking him out and putting him in his death trap. Then Spidey wakes up, breaks out, and Technicolor Man has no more points to spend. Spidey beats him up, and since the villain lost, he doesn't get any Hero Points back. So the next time he shows up, he's got none to spend, and Spidey stomps him casually. After that he never wins, so he's always running around empty, and is never a threat again. He's going to need to successfully rob some banks or something to build himself back up to a real threat again before he fights Spidey.

 

I'm not saying Champions needs a mechanic like that, but it does offer good hand-wave explanations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Marvel Supers used their Karma system for a similar explanation of disparate power levels, I believe.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I sometimes use something called "Bonus Points" and "Bogus Points"--you accumulate the former by 1) being creative, 2) playing in character really well, 3) doing something heroic, 4) taunting a villain. You accumulate the latter by 1) playing a little out of character, 2) whining or complaining during a session, 3) doing something unheroic(or "shady"), and 4) taunting a villain. Bonus points can be spent on re-rolls, power stunts, "radiation accidents"(if you accumulate enough you can do a total character rewrite), etc. Bogus points are actually "spent" by the GM, and this can happen in 3 different ways: 1) You can tell the GM you want to burn off a bogus point this session and he will pick an appropriate time for something unlucky to happen or to force a reroll of a successful effort, 2) The GM can on his own initiative spend a PCs bogus point(s), though this is still something to be agreed between player and gm, 3) there's a max number of bogus points that can be accumulated(typically, 13), and when that happens, they must be spent, so usually the GM will, in coordination with the player, come up with some suitable "E True Hollywood Story" type plot twist that lays the hero low for a while("Captain Amazing was riding high...until it all came crashing down").

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Joe Tough Guy and the Howitzer are background scenery.

 

Or a punk band.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I sometimes use something called "Bonus Points" and "Bogus Points"--you accumulate the former by 1) being creative' date=' 2) playing in character really well, 3) doing something heroic, 4) taunting a villain. You accumulate the latter by 1) playing a little out of character, 2) whining or complaining during a session, 3) doing something unheroic(or "shady"), and 4) [b']taunting a villain[/b].

 

Spidey would be in deep doo-doo in this campaign.

[Cassandra]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

this is why I built low level characters all on equal points.

 

Things balance out, and it's up to the players to win using their smarts.

 

 

Let me give you an example

 

In World War Two the Japanese had the Zero fighter, which could clime faster and was more maneuverable then the Wildcat, but standard U.S. Navy Fighter at the start of the war.

 

The Navy Pilots like John Thatch came up with tactics to use the weaknesses the Zero had, like the fact it had no armor, and it's firepower was less then that of the Wildcat.

 

 

"Don't you teach them knife fighting. Teach them how to kill. That way when they run into some son of a bitch who studied knife fighting they'll send his sole to hell. It's all in the mind, Sergeant. That's where the battle is won."

 

Val Kilmer in Spartan

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

"Patrol your assigned airspace, Shoot down the enemy, Nothing else matters"

Manfred Von Richthofen

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

"I drank what?"

Socrates

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Agreed – in a standard Supers game, thousand point NPC’s are just another version of those GM Mary Sue NPC’s who exist to make it clear the PC’s aren’t powerful or important, just lesser lights in the great Universe of the GM.

 

Yup. Whether that grade is based on a standard of 10 – 12 DC or 100 – 120 DC. Unlike the typical D&D game, where the characters begin as raw, wet behind the ears rookies (yet get assigned important and prestigious tasks anyway – where are all the L3 characters while the PC’s are L1?), Supers tend not to grow in power over time in the source material. They get a wild power up, or a massive power down, on occasion, but they tend to have a set power level where they remain. And, as a result, those villains introduced in their first year or two remain credible threats, unlike that half a dozen Orcs when the D&D party is 15th level.

 

on the basis that a normal fire, like a house fire, is an ambient environmental condition, despite being statted out to inflict xd6 Energy Damage. In fact, maybe we should expand Life Support for Supers games to encompass “natural hazards” in general, and maybe even include “normal weapons” at the extreme.

 

Or exercise writer fiat. Superman's susceptibility to Kryptonite should have killed him years ago if it were ruthlessly exploited by a killer DM. Lucky for Supes he has a good GM who views disadvantages/complications as story hooks rather than his license to screw over the character and the player.

I disagree, if those multi-thousand-point NPCs are only mentioned, then they aren't GMPCs, and the characters have to walk off with the show (without having anything resembling weaknesses) to be a Mary Sue. The sheer fact that you can have a universe where there is a Superman and Booster Gold is genuinely important, makes Mary Sues nearly impossible. Right until Red Hulk, Sentry, or Deathstroke show up.

 

Like massey said:10-12 DCs doesn't fit those characters. That's patently false, every character in comics have grown stronger over time, some a bit more than others, but they all grow stronger. Spider-Man started at 10 Marvel tons, but he's probably closer to 20 or 30 Marvel tons by now. Wolverine's regeneration didn't start anywhere near where it is now. Colossus Started off at 70-80 tons and now he's in the 100+ category, not including his juggernaut or Pheonix powers. Etc.

 

Or don't because that has never been the case and unless you are designing your own game, you really shouldn't be altering one game just to make up for your wimpy Superman writeup. Especially when it's easier to just make Superman tougher.