Lord Liaden Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Hey' date=' I know and love the story conventions too! It's still amusing now and then to step back and critique them from another perspective.[/quote'] I concur. If you look at all the disbelief you have to suspend to swallow the average comic-book world, your own sanity might be suspect. (I admit, I dislike Takofanes for reasons that have nothing to do with the character himself. First, I got there first, dammit, with Archimago. Second, Big T is designed to link two settings and genres, and I thought that linking all the HERO published settings into one big meta-setting was a bad idea the moment I heard of it. I still do. But that is a different topic.) Getting to the point, I've thought it might be a fun "reveal" to have heroes, after great effort and danger, penetrate the mind of Takofanes... and find there's nothing there. Tens of thousands of years of imprisonment are too much even for an undead arch-wizard. His ego crumbled, leaving only fragments of knowledge and a force of magic that keeps him going through the motions. FWIW I prefer Archimago to Takofanes myself, and would have rather he taken the "archlich" role in the rebooted Champions Universe. I found Archimago's background and history richer and more compelling, not to mention ironic. I think it might be interesting to have Archimago reincarnated by Takofanes himself (perhaps the only non-god who could accomplish such a feat), who arrogantly believes he can control the greatest mage of the Twentieth Century. Can you say, "Lich War, with PC heroes in the crossfire?" As to your suggested "reveal," I read the playtest copy of The Mystic World and noticed you proposed just such a situation, as discovered by Menton. I can understand why that didn't make it into the final book, though -- it would definitely restrict potential future plot uses for Takofanes. I prefer to think of his "random" acts as setting up something really big down the road. Oh, and just to keep this on-topic: Takofanes is unquestionably bug-nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Oh, and just to keep this on-topic: Takofanes is unquestionably bug-nuts. Many, if not most, of the CU bad-guy magic-users are, which I suspect is deliberate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! I'm glad that the CU has a Dark Lord archvillain' date=' and that there's an ancient age of wondrous swords and sorcery in the past of the Champions Universe. I just wish that the Valdorian Age had been settled on instead of a generic Gygaxian fantasy world. That being said, you work with what you've got. [/quote'] IMO Hero Earth didn't need to go further back than the Atlantean Age for that kind of heritage. There are much more substantial remnants from that era in the modern-day CU than from the earlier ages. And it would be easy to trade Takofanes for Sharna-Gorak if you wanted a great menace from the past to return. The Archimago is cool' date=' too; and the Zodiac Working is a great way to keep him "alive." In that sense, because it's all that we have of him in the modern version of the CU, the image that I have is of a villain whose master plan, by intent, no less, only really gets underway once he is finally, irrevocably dead. That's one cold legacy to leave to the world[/quote'] The Zodiac Working is one of my favorite possible origins in the CU, the potential of which has barely been touched. And the origin of Evil Eye (Champions Villains Vol. 3) suggests Archimago could have left any number of contingency plans underway. With Dr. Destroyer' date=' well, we know that he [i']isn't [/i]Doctor Doom, and I think that Steve's picture of him is on the nose, if you read between the lines of his "narration" in Day of the Destroyer He's bipolar, grandiose, narcissistic, and mainly rapid cycling, although his most severe depressed episodes have been pretty long. (Yeah, Albert, you totally just faked your death so that you could advance your technology. The Battle of Detroit wasn't suicidal ideation at all.) The world is hostage to (amongst others) a massively resourceful tweaker whose ostensible plots to take over the Earth are little more than the externally-misdirected aggression of a severe, manic-depressive. He's like that raving meth-head walking down the street, peering into the recycling bins, except that he can, and will, kill us all. If Zerstoiten is all those things, he's still pretty darn high-functioning, considering he's been able to build an army of loyal soldiers and network of spies, and numerous bases around the world and beyond, most of which the law-enforcement and intelligence agencies of the world haven't been able even to locate, let alone penetrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Many' date=' if not most, of the CU bad-guy magic-users are, which I suspect is deliberate.[/quote'] Probably an occupational hazard if you're interacting with, or even are, demons, elder gods, or conceptual entities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! The Zodiac Working is one of my favorite possible origins in the CU, the potential of which has barely been touched. And the origin of Evil Eye (Champions Villains Vol. 3) suggests Archimago could have left any number of contingency plans underway. Ohh yes. Not the only "gotcha last" at all. But that's off topic. And I like devising origin stories that GMs can reuse. Also off topic. The CU's three great dimensional conquerors supply a nice compare-and-contrast for villain mentality. Tyrannon is arguably insane in the legal sense, in that he cannot choose to act otherwise. That he can be balked temporarily argues against this, but still, he is unusually monomaniac even for a master villain. The Tyrannon who first attacked and consumed another Thulkosian mage-god made a moral choice. The creature he became does not have a choice any longer. No more than a rabid dog or a cancer cell. Skarn, OTOH, is genuinely nuts without being legally insane. He has free will; he makes meaningful choices; in most respects he interacts with reality in an effective way. He doesn't need to conquer in the way Tyrannon does. He just starts from the delusional premise that the Multiverse exists to create him so he can rule it all. As such, he can be held responsible for his actions in a way that Tyrannon cannot. (The Cosmic Cancer doesn't need to be punished. He needs to be excised. Or cured, but that could be even more difficult.) Finally, Istvatha V'han does not seem to be insane, in that she can still make meaningful choices and can tell what's real and what's not. She's not crazy in that she doesn't seem to have any major delusions. She's just very, very ambitious. (At least, going by the information in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks and CV: Master Villains.) Considering her success so far, her ambitions do not even seem unrealistic. Whether Istavatha V'han is evil depends on your view of unprovoked aggression and conquest. Most people through most of human history thought this was just fine, as long as they were doing the aggressing and conquering. She's adversarial, and that's enough. Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Many' date=' if not most, of the CU bad-guy magic-users are, which I suspect is deliberate.[/quote'] Probably an occupational hazard if you're interacting with' date=' or even are, demons, elder gods, or conceptual entities.[/quote'] I had similar thoughts. The whole "karmic payback" thing when taking certain steps in the pursuit of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! The X-Men feel persecuted' date=' even though they are in a universe that doesn't seem to have any problem with people who build powered armor or accidentally get the powers.[/quote'] Correction: the X-Men ARE pesercuted, even though they are in a universe that doesn't seem to have any problem with people who build powered armor or accidentally get their powers. It's one of the worst, most glaring flaws in the Marvel universe... second only to the continued existance of an organized underworld in the face of so many street-level heroes working against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Mutants are based on the racial prejudices. There's more organized crime than there are street heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Mutant paranoia was a great metaphor for racism in the '60s. Now it has become an exucse for lazy writing. No matter how many times the X-Men (mutants) save the world - or even reality itself - they are still hated and feared. No matter how many times Dr. Doom tries to take over the world, verty few hate and fear Iron Man or Reed Richards... in spite of the similarities. Sure, there's more organized crime than street heroes. But organized crime always looses. It's not like OC vs. the police, where the police have to react to specific incidents; street heroes can be much more proactive. Look at the Punisher for a good example of this. Over 40-some years you'd think they'd have made a significant dent in it by now... Case in point: from the Punisher's point of view, the Kingpin would look really good through the aiming reticle of a TOW missile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Correction: the X-Men ARE pesercuted, even though they are in a universe that doesn't seem to have any problem with people who build powered armor or accidentally get their powers. It's one of the worst, most glaring flaws in the Marvel universe... second only to the continued existance of an organized underworld in the face of so many street-level heroes working against it. The part that drives me crazy is wondering HOW your man in the street knows the difference between mutants and, for instance, Spider-Man. Spider-Man got his powers by accident, so he's okay. If he'd been born with them, or developed them at puberty, he'd be a mutant and therefore a threat to civilization (in the minds of the public). And somehow, the public just magically knows which he is, though they know almost nothing about him. So if the X-Men would just SHUT UP about being mutants, and claim to be no different from Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four or whoever, they'd have no problems. (Or if the X-Men are too well know, then at least all the YOUNGER mutants should wise up and stop hanging out with them and deny being mutants.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esampson Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! . . . No matter how many times the X-Men (mutants) save the world - or even reality itself - they are still hated and feared. No matter how many times Dr. Doom tries to take over the world' date=' verty few hate and fear Iron Man or Reed Richards... in spite of the similarities. . .[/quote'] Nearly every time the X-Men save the world it is either from other mutants or from one of their own who's flipped out. That's not really going to help their cause. Of the minority of times where they are trying to stop a problem that isn't being caused by a mutant most of the time it is still a problem being cause by anti-mutant groups (so to some degree they still get the 'those problems wouldn't exist if it wasn't for those mutants' problem). On the very few occasions where the X-Men might actually be saving the world from a threat that can't in some way, shape, or form be laid at the feet of mutants the public at large rarely hears about it. Then of course there's the whole concern that people had that humans were simply going to get pushed out by mutants and become extinct. Dr. Doom on the other hand never tries to make everyone extinct, he never tries to take over the world for smart people everywhere, and when the smart people show up and kick his armor plated butt there's always lots of good press for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Mutant paranoia was a great metaphor for racism in the '60s. Now it has become an exucse for lazy writing. No matter how many times the X-Men (mutants) save the world - or even reality itself - they are still hated and feared. No matter how many times Dr. Doom tries to take over the world, verty few hate and fear Iron Man or Reed Richards... in spite of the similarities. Sure, there's more organized crime than street heroes. But organized crime always looses. It's not like OC vs. the police, where the police have to react to specific incidents; street heroes can be much more proactive. Look at the Punisher for a good example of this. Over 40-some years you'd think they'd have made a significant dent in it by now... Case in point: from the Punisher's point of view, the Kingpin would look really good through the aiming reticle of a TOW missile... What do they loose? Their thugs on the unsuspecting public? Heroes are strangely reactive instead of proactive. That was one reason why everyone came down on Murdock when he went after the Kingpin and set himself up as the boss of the Kitchen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! X-men has always been to me one of the most glaring examples of "Part of the universe, but not part of it". The "world" they live in is supposedly the same world as the rest of the Marvel Universe, but the majority of people in X-men simply don't act like the majority of people in the rest of the marvel universe. And vice versa. The whole issue with mutant vs non-mutant in my opinion is just another casualty of crossover fever. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! It's not the X-men that are crazy. It's the very selective prejudices of the world they live in' date=' that seem crazy.[/quote'] One of my CHIEF gripes against the marvel universe right here: Beast, as an Avenger he is loved by the people, but OH MY GOD HE WENT TO HIS SCHOOL REUNION WHAT A MONSTER.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! Beast wasn't loved as an Avenger. There have been anti-mutant rallies outside of Avengers Mansion in the past. Marvel's heroes are not held in the same regard as DC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Quantum Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! My 2 cents. Comic book mages deal with things that would drive most people insane upon their first exposure. I think of magical adventures as being like radiation poisoning. Mages have better shielding but some still leaks through over time. Also, as a mage becomes more powerful, he might become so attuned to mystic phenomena that his entire frame of reference shifts to that and everyone else starts commenting on how he seems to only speak in riddles and non sequiturs. It would make perfect sense to anyone who shared that frame of reference. Putting on a costume to fight or commit crimes is, I think, an attempt to become more than just a human being. When a highwayman concealed his face, he didn't just conceal his identity. He also signaled that he couldn't be expected to conform to normal behaviors and could do anything, including kill at the drop of a hat. Batman is a classic example of symbolism to evoke fear of the dark, imo. Criminals accustomed to thinking of the night and darkness as their protector from the law had to rethink that when Batman loomed out of the shadows. I agree that mutants just a metaphor for prejudice in most cases. There was a supplement called The Mutant Files that covered GENOCIDE and a mutant supremacist group whose name escapes me at the moment(IMAGE?). Anyway, it talked about a subset of mutants called the New Generation. They didn't have any obvious physical mutations other than being very physically attractive. Their package deal included extended lifespan, reduced need for sleep and stat bonuses. They were supposedly the result of the mutant genome stabilizing after the initial breakout and all of its variations. The implication was that they were the future of mutants on Earth (sorry, Beast, but you ain't it). It made me think of the Inhumans or some kind of proto-New Gods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! wouldn't super-hroes go nuts from constantly dealing with every freakishly powered bully bo thatcame down the road? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! I have to admit' date=' that "twisted his mind" tactic in the [i']Champions Villains[/i] trilogy annoys me with its frequency. Like you, I generally prefer that villains (and heroes for that matter) have something in their background that would naturally lead them to take on the roles they do. I find it more compelling when you can trace the path in a person's life that ends in such extraordinary personas. Agreed. Use sparingly, it can make for interesting, somewhat sympathetic antagonists but when it gets over done it almost feels lazy. "This character is a bad guy and I can't think of any reason for them to take that turn so..." Its also strike me as a bit cynical. As if there is some critical mass of Power that means the human mind will automatically turn to evil/madness like the Power Corrupts saying taken to an extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! wouldn't super-hroes go nuts from constantly dealing with every freakishly powered bully bo thatcame down the road? There was a story in the old "Superheroes" anthology that touched on that. I believe it was called "Veterans". It made the good point that the "typical" superheroes life is would be unbelievably stressful, even more so in a world stripped of the genre conventions that help them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! I'd suspect you could classify superpowered "psychoses" as lying on a spectrum ranging from "Good" (socially acceptable/laudable compulsions/motivations) right through minor neuroses to "Evil" (socially unacceptable/asocial compulsions/motivations). So sometimes you get paragons of virtue or avatars of evil, but more usually you get people with an inflated sense of social responsibility to go along with their expansive powers, or they have an inflated sense of entitlement as a result of the belief that "if you can't stop me it's mine anyway". In a universe where the majority of people are not super, any activities that Supers regularly engage in that normals cannot (or do not) Such as, but not limited to, wearing a costume, using a code-name to conceal one's alter-identity, fighting crime, natural disasters, etc. (heroic) or robbing banks and trying to conquer the world (villains) would be judged by many outside the supers community as at least eccentric if not downright crazy. Clinical distinctions aside, superheroes and supervillains engage in behavior that makes sense in context but it doesn't follow that the world outside the super community is hip to the jive. In other words, the rest of the world will still contain large numbers of people who may appreciate being saved from a house-fire by the Big Red Cheese, "...but really, if he's going to wear a costume, he could've chosen something less undignified than those red longjohns he runs around in." In that world, a lot of people would still be debating this subject because for most folks, superheroing is as remote a possibility as winning the gold medal in an Olympic event*, and the motivation to become a hero (technically a vigilante in many cases) would baffle some folks. *Odds not actually calculated. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! There was a story in the old "Superheroes" anthology that touched on that. I believe it was called "Veterans". It made the good point that the "typical" superheroes life is would be unbelievably stressful' date=' even more so in a world stripped of the genre conventions that help them out.[/quote'] My assumption is that they retire fairly early, the same way that professional athletes do. Alive or dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted September 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! I wonder if not killing your enemies would help with the stress. A lack of guilt and you're saving lives makes up for a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! One of my CHIEF gripes against the marvel universe right here: Beast, as an Avenger he is loved by the people, but OH MY GOD HE WENT TO HIS SCHOOL REUNION WHAT A MONSTER.... The comparison I like to use is Artie and Leech vs. Thor. The former are hated and hunted while the latter is (mostly) left alone. Even though he claims to be a god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! I wonder if not killing your enemies would help with the stress. A lack of guilt and you're saving lives makes up for a lot. I imagine it would depend on the individual. In comics, of course, it depends on the writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Re: You Don't Have to be Crazy to be a Superhero, but it Helps! The comparison I like to use is Artie and Leech vs. Thor. The former are hated and hunted while the latter is (mostly) left alone. Even though he claims to be a god. Not in UltU. They thought he was whacked out and had him locked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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