How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I don't see them trying Hero, much less converting,

until they've been in a play session, or watched a play session,

wherein the players and the GM were all having fun.

 

If they can experience people having fun with Hero,

where their first experience is the story, and NOT how

did we set up the story (ie with number crunching).

 

A lame analogy would be: Millions enjoyed watching FANTASTIC FOUR.

a few thousand enjoyed watching THE MAKING of the FANTASTIC FOUR.

 

....which is why I'd steer new players from WoTC away from character creation. Too many pitfalls, and a steep learning curve. Concentrate on the fact that, even without that, Hero is a solid, playable game. Cut to the fun, and let those who are keen find the 'making of'...

[rjcurrie]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

....which is why I'd steer new players from WoTC away from character creation. Too many pitfalls' date=' and a steep learning curve. Concentrate on the fact that, even without that, Hero is a solid, playable game. Cut to the fun, and let those who are keen find the 'making of'...[/quote']

 

 

Well, as I've said elsewhere I completely disagree with this approach, because I think the flexibility of character creation is one of the biggest strengths of Hero. But I might be unusual. As soon as I started to learn AD&D 28 years, I began to question the narrowness of class-based character generation and advancement.

[mayapuppies]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I use the desire of most people; wanting to fit in.

 

By running games where everyone is interacting and having a great time, I gather D20 players like flies to honey. They're (generally) so used to tossing dice and killing each other over 'lewt' they don't have the level of interaction they see at my table.

 

Works great.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

 

What do you do when you get the guy who says "Well, d20 is superior because it can do anything! Look at all these massively expensive books I can buy to run what I want!"

 

O RLY?

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character who is rich.

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that can take a lot of damage.

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that is a nobleman.

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that can turn someone into a frog.

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that can turn themselves into a frog.

 

With just the core books.

 

Your turn to sneer derisively.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Well' date=' as I've said elsewhere I completely disagree with this approach, because I think the flexibility of character creation is one of the biggest strengths of Hero. But I might be unusual. As soon as I started to learn AD&D 28 years, I began to question the narrowness of class-based character generation and advancement.[/quote']

 

I think different people are different. Some will like the complexity and opportunity Hero represents, some would rather just grab a pre-generated character and start role playing. Neither approach is wrong, and a decent GM will identify player preferences and work with what is there.

 

In my current game and the last one I played in the PCs were all GM generated. Whilst this might seem like anathema to some, it works surprisingly well. I re-built Monster Girl (the last superhero I played) a dozen different ways for fun but kept on playing the one I was given in the game and the whole campaign was excellent and immensely enjoyable.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I make it a point to not care what other people think and just do what I want to do however I want to do it.

 

Anarchy in the U S of A baybee!!! Viva la Revelucion!!!!

 

 

...

 

 

Huh?

 

 

 

Seriously though, if someone likes d20 its not a crime. Be glad we live in a world where we can all like our own choice of games for no better reason than just because we do.

[Maur]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

O RLY?

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character who is rich.

 

Yep, one can take the Wealth feat in D20 Modern...

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that can take a lot of damage.

 

Barbarian, 20 Con, Rage...

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that is a nobleman.

 

Been there, done that. Doesn't take anything more than backstory.

 

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that can turn someone into a frog.

Ask them if they can make a 1st lvl character that can turn themselves into a frog.

With just the core books.

 

Which Core books? There are the D&D core books, D20 Modern Core books...

 

Your turn to sneer derisively.

 

OK, make each of those with just 25+25 disad. Else you aren't really creating something like a 1st level character in HERO either.

[NestorDRod]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Whenever the subject of D20 vs. anything comes up, my mind travels back to a combined D20/Feng Shui adventure, Burning Shaolin, that Robin Laws wrote some years ago. The book was written with separate paragraphs to handle the rule-specific aspects for each system.

 

At one point in the adventure, the heroes come across a monster's midden, covered in the decaying bones and debris from his former victims. The d20 paragraph proceeds to explain, in detail, how much gold, weapons and other such goodies can be found in the pile.

 

The Feng Shui paragraph has only one line: "Your heroes are too busy looking cool to go rooting around a trash dump for loose change."

 

That about says it all to me.

[rjcurrie]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I think different people are different. Some will like the complexity and opportunity Hero represents, some would rather just grab a pre-generated character and start role playing. Neither approach is wrong, and a decent GM will identify player preferences and work with what is there.

 

In my current game and the last one I played in the PCs were all GM generated. Whilst this might seem like anathema to some, it works surprisingly well. I re-built Monster Girl (the last superhero I played) a dozen different ways for fun but kept on playing the one I was given in the game and the whole campaign was excellent and immensely enjoyable.

 

So how does offering the whole gamut of character creation options prevent a player who would prefer to be handed something by the GM from having that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

So how does offering the whole gamut of character creation options prevent a player who would prefer to be handed something by the GM from having that?

 

It doesn't, but that is not what I was saying. To be handed a character sheet by the GM assumes that at least the GM is familiar with the system. Having a character generation system that works in simple, quick steps is sometimes attractive.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it now: take away the character creation system and Hero is still a great game.

[rjcurrie]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

It doesn't, but that is not what I was saying. To be handed a character sheet by the GM assumes that at least the GM is familiar with the system. Having a character generation system that works in simple, quick steps is sometimes attractive.

 

I've said this before and I'll say it now: take away the character creation system and Hero is still a great game.

 

I don't why being handed a character sheet by a GM would lead one to assume the GM is familiar with the system. There are other possibilities: the GM could have simply copied the character out of a book; the character sheet could've been created by the GM's friend or mother; or since the player is not familiar with the system, it could be complete gibberish (how would the player know?).

 

The point I was trying to make that by catering to those who want a less complex character creation system, you may end up turning off those to whom the flexibility of character creation would be the major selling point.

 

And finally, to me if you take away the character creation system, there isn't much left but a pretty typical RPG resolution system that is really not that much different than a dozen or so others.

 

It's a "role"-playing game. The characters should be the single most important thing. The rest of the world is just there for the characters to interact with. And in fact, I'd go as far as saying nothing in the rest of the world really exists until the characters interact with it in some way.

[Kdansky]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I am mostly annoyed that nearly any ressource on RPG, be it about story, GMing, advice or whatever is written for Fantasy D20, usually (still) 3.5.

 

I've had enough of barbarians and sorcerers, I've played that genre for 12 years now! Can we get other examples please? (I'm looking at you, John's Roleplaying Tips)

 

And I also have two players in my group who are utterly mezmerized by DSA and wouldn't ever consider running anything else. Because you know, it might actually be fun too... They went as far as threatening to (not explicitly, but "I might sit out this one if we play it" is a threat to me) and then actually leaving the group over this because I did not want to GM their game (take the seat yourself if you want something so badly, yes?!). Took us like 5 seconds to find replacements, so no harm done (to me).

[Istaran]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

For the last year or so I've been playing D&D and Hero system every weekend to the best of my ability.

 

Advantage D&D: D&D can do some very interesting things out of the box. Things like the Fighter's Combat Challenge and the Swordmage's Aegis of Shielding or Aegis of Assault would be a pain to build in Hero and would likely have a value that is completely out of line with the point cost. In D&D they're standard class features that are readily available.

 

Advantage HERO: HERO can do pretty much whatever kind of character you want to build. There's much more customization and fine tuning inherent to the system. Where D&D as a system wants you to put together a combination of the concepts the designers thought of (Swordmage class + Dragonborn race = character! err?) HERO wants you to put together your own thing from more basic building blocks (Multiform + Shapeshift + Multipower + Skills (including Acting, Oratory, and PS: Actor) + Charicteristics (especially PRE + COM) + Money + etc. = shapeshifting mutant super-actor. I guess?). That lends itself more obviously to unique and distinctive characters. (Don't say you can't get them in D&D. I've been making them for quite a while. The system does however somewhat favor overly typical characters though.)

 

With a cooperative GM, anything D&D can do CAN be done in HERO. It may take a lot of work, some shoehorning to make the thing do what you say it does instead of what the books think it does, some eyeballing of the pricetag, especially on the inevitable "Limited Power" limitation, and so forth. But with enough points, enough effort, and enough handwaving you can get anything to work. (Of course, with comparable effort and a comparably cooperative DM you can probably do that in D&D too. But D&D doesn't encourage you to.)

 

==============

Anecdotally, what got me interested in HERO was the promise that you could make any character in HERO. The character I had been playing in free-form roleplaying could not in any way be even remotely modelled in D&D as far as I could see. So I learned HERO in order to see if I could make him in HERO. Throwing over 1000 pts at it and shoehorning several things I got something that was a pale pathetic shadow of the character I loved, but was close enough to play a game with. Fortunately along the way I got to playing with more HERO-friendly characters under a talented and hard-working GM. I won't say the promise that got my interest was fulfilled to my satisfaction, but I am glad I gave HERO a chance.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Yep, one can take the Wealth feat in D20 Modern...

 

 

 

Barbarian, 20 Con, Rage...

 

 

 

Been there, done that. Doesn't take anything more than backstory.

 

 

 

Which Core books? There are the D&D core books, D20 Modern Core books...

 

 

 

OK, make each of those with just 25+25 disad. Else you aren't really creating something like a 1st level character in HERO either.

 

Let's start with the PHB, DMG and MM. I don't play anything D20 flavored other than D&D.

 

And I don't buy the notion of nobility being nothing but backstory. You wouldn't be able to get away with that in the RPGA, and nothing in the core rulebooks makes it explicitly available to players.

[Vulcan]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

When I run D&D (3.5, btw), anyone who takes their first level in the Aristocrat NPC class can be a noble at 1st level.

 

Since the Aristocrat NPC class offers little else (no spells, bonus feats, or special abilities; average saves, hit bonus, and hit points; and a little extra money - which is quickly siphoned away by expenses ) only one person has taken me up on it. And that was because being a 'runaway princess' was the core of her character concept.

[Istaran]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Let's start with the PHB, DMG and MM. I don't play anything D20 flavored other than D&D.

 

And I don't buy the notion of nobility being nothing but backstory. You wouldn't be able to get away with that in the RPGA, and nothing in the core rulebooks makes it explicitly available to players.

 

In the RPGA you would join the appropriate Metaorg to represent your noble birth, which has to be filed appropriately before level 3 as I recall. It costs you nothing and gives negligible mechanical benefits but all kinds of RP potential. You should also name your character appropriately.

 

Also note that standard starting gold for almost any first level character is stupidly rich according to the PHB. But then coherent economics was never touted as a strong point of D&D.

 

By contrast, in Hero you can spend a meager 15 cp to be a billionare. Which mysteriously does not entitle you to having armed guards escort you around, or even provide you with a basic handgun. (But you could get both of those and also take a 15 point disad for being totally broke; presumably because you spend all your money on armed guards and a handgun.) In D&D, being rich (by PC standards) has quite significant mechanical benefits, that can make you much better in combat. In HERO it makes you weaker in combat (because you spent those points there instead of getting +5 PD/ED armor or any of a million other combat-oriented upgrades). So while you looks smug about your character being a slightly less effective combatant because he's a millionare instead, the D&D player puts his wealth to productive use. (You can put your wealth to SFX use I guess, using it to explain the other things you have on your sheet. Certainly Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne use their wealth as SFX justification for how they can afford all the super toys.)

 

The Wealth / Nobility argument is rather unimpressive in my book. The turning yourself and others into frogs argument holds more merit.

[JmOz]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

In the RPGA you would join the appropriate Metaorg to represent your noble birth, which has to be filed appropriately before level 3 as I recall. It costs you nothing and gives negligible mechanical benefits but all kinds of RP potential. You should also name your character appropriately.

 

Also note that standard starting gold for almost any first level character is stupidly rich according to the PHB. But then coherent economics was never touted as a strong point of D&D.

 

By contrast, in Hero you can spend a meager 15 cp to be a billionare. Which mysteriously does not entitle you to having armed guards escort you around, or even provide you with a basic handgun. (But you could get both of those and also take a 15 point disad for being totally broke; presumably because you spend all your money on armed guards and a handgun.) In D&D, being rich (by PC standards) has quite significant mechanical benefits, that can make you much better in combat. In HERO it makes you weaker in combat (because you spent those points there instead of getting +5 PD/ED armor or any of a million other combat-oriented upgrades). So while you looks smug about your character being a slightly less effective combatant because he's a millionare instead, the D&D player puts his wealth to productive use. (You can put your wealth to SFX use I guess, using it to explain the other things you have on your sheet. Certainly Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne use their wealth as SFX justification for how they can afford all the super toys.)

 

The Wealth / Nobility argument is rather unimpressive in my book. The turning yourself and others into frogs argument holds more merit.

 

Wealth in Hero is huge in heroic games. In super heroic games it still comes in very useful, team needs to get to venice, Wayne enterprises can fly them out and get them hotel rooms, pay the lost wages, bribe the officials, rent cars/bikes (for non combat purposes) and a million other things. IME wealth is about perfectly priced for super hero games, and can be grossly over or under priced in heroic...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

In my less than humble opinion, there is no inherent superiority to the "Hero Rules D20 Drools" attitude than to the "WoTC Drone" mentality. There are things Hero can do well that d20 cannot.

 

D20 Drone, let's see you build a Witch who can turn people into frogs as a starting character, but has no other magical abilities and will never gain any, nor will she become a powerful combatant, in the d20 system.

 

Hero Guru, build a starting character with a Superhuman DEX (say 23 - that's +5 OCV/DCV compared to Joe Average, which seems a reasonable equivalent to DEX 20 in d20) and average STR (say 10). He must be useless or virtually useless in HTH combat - no more than a 50% chance of hitting and harming a complete normal. A 1st level halfling or elf can get the 20 Dex in d20, and he will hit an AC of 10 50% of the time unless he is a fighter class.

 

Here's another, Hero Guru - build me a wizard who is also a capable combatant. He has a 10 STR and a 10 CON (his points went to mental stats) and he uses a Greatsword to good effect. In D20, 1 feat spent on WP: Greatsword will do the trick. What percentage of your 150 character (75 + 75) must be used to realize this facet of the character's concept?

[BlackSword]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

How do you "convert" those who are so stuck on WoTC that they won't even look at anything else? If this were about 6 years ago' date=' I'd be asking how you do the same with White Wolf players, but that's another rant.[/quote']

I don't 'convert' them, everyone has separate and unique tastes, I expect they would be as stiff necked about a lecture on the 'superiourity' of Hero as I would be about a lecture on the superiourity of d20. Both games have advantages and disadvantages.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Hero Guru' date=' build a starting character with a Superhuman DEX (say 23 - that's +5 OCV/DCV compared to Joe Average, which seems a reasonable equivalent to DEX 20 in d20) and average STR (say 10). He must be useless or virtually useless in HTH combat - no more than a 50% chance of hitting and harming a complete normal. A 1st level halfling or elf can get the 20 Dex in d20, and he will hit an AC of 10 50% of the time unless he is a fighter class.[/quote']

+13 Dex; Does not affect CV (-1) [39 Active; 19 Real] (Arguably a larger Limitation and less points, though the base cost might be higher in games with NCM)

 

or maybe:

 

Skill Levels: +3 with Agility Skills [15 Real]

 

Here's another' date=' Hero Guru - build me a wizard who is also a capable combatant. He has a 10 STR and a 10 CON (his points went to mental stats) and he uses a Greatsword to good effect. In D20, 1 feat spent on WP: Greatsword will do the trick. What percentage of your 150 character (75 + 75) must be used to realize this facet of the character's concept?[/quote']

 

WF: Swords [1 Real] (The equivalent of a simple proficiency with a greatsword; what about the D&D proficiency made a wizard a capable combatant again?)

 

and MAYBE (but not necessarily):

 

+8 Str; Only to meet the Str Min of a greatsword (-2) [8 Active; 3 Real]

 

I've converted a lot of D&D 3.5 feats, by the way, and they mostly fall in the 3-5 character point range when converted to Hero. A few crazy ones might be up in the 10-15 point range, but it depends a lot on the rest of the game options (how the game's magic system and magical item creation works, for example). So this is right in line with the D&D character creation.

[NestorDRod]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I don't have much of a stake either way in this discussion, but I can't let a challenge like that go unanswered, at least somewhat.

 

Hero Guru, build a starting character with a Superhuman DEX (say 23 - that's +5 OCV/DCV compared to Joe Average, which seems a reasonable equivalent to DEX 20 in d20) and average STR (say 10). He must be useless or virtually useless in HTH combat - no more than a 50% chance of hitting and harming a complete normal. A 1st level halfling or elf can get the 20 Dex in d20, and he will hit an AC of 10 50% of the time unless he is a fighter class.

 

Don't buy him any Weapon Skills at all. That's an automatic -3 to his OCV when trying to hit someone. Or give him a Physical Limitation that gives him minuses to his OCV/DCV (Incurably Clumsy, perhaps?)

 

Here's another, Hero Guru - build me a wizard who is also a capable combatant. He has a 10 STR and a 10 CON (his points went to mental stats) and he uses a Greatsword to good effect. In D20, 1 feat spent on WP: Greatsword will do the trick. What percentage of your 150 character (75 + 75) must be used to realize this facet of the character's concept?

 

CSLs. IIRC (I don't have the books in front of me), you can get a weapon class based CSL for 3 points a pop. So 12 points gives you a +4 with Swords, which should make him a darn good sword fighter.

 

How's that?

 

Edit: Somebody beat me to it. I did forget about the STR Min for a greatsword, though.

[Vulcan]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

It seems I have been fortunate in my gaming groups. Most of us play both d20 and HEROS. Those of us who have played both think that HEROS is, indeed, the better system. But d20 is easier to learn in small doses, for new players.

 

So when we are bringing a new player into this glorious hobby we share, we start off with d20 for one campaign. Then we start a new campaign with HEROS...

[Vondy]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Friends! Romans! Er, Heroes! I recommend a new strategem: poke these twenty-sided infidels in the chest with thy spatha and inform them they can convert to the hero faithful or we will tread them under our marching sandaled feet with our green and black hex man legion banner at our multitudinous fore!

 

/begin marching sandal noises

/slam spear into breastplate in salute

 

Hail Hero!

Hail Hero!

Hail Hero!

Hail Hero!

Hail Hero!

[Istaran]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

Wealth in Hero is huge in heroic games. In super heroic games it still comes in very useful' date=' team needs to get to venice, Wayne enterprises can fly them out and get them hotel rooms, pay the lost wages, bribe the officials, rent cars/bikes (for non combat purposes) and a million other things. IME wealth is about perfectly priced for super hero games, and can be grossly over or under priced in heroic...[/quote']

 

I'm not sure how to judge Wealth in Hero in heroic games, having never played one. It seems to have a STOP sign in my mind, regardless of it not being there in the book. As I understand it, in heroic games you can spend wealth on getting equipment which can easily equate to far more than 15 points of stuff without putting a dent in your 15 point Wealth. Which is why I wouldn't expect a GM to allow it in the first place. Someone with 15 pts in Wealth in a heroic game could, should and probably would outfit their entire party with the best mundane gear money can buy (probably more than 15 cp each) without it making a notable dent on their wealth.

 

In superheroic games the value can fluxuate based on in game events.. in my current campaign the party has recieved a massive influx of cash during the game to where we can all pretty make any modest (say up to a few 100 dollars) use of cash without thinking about it despite being unemployed teenagers for the most part. That makes my 3cp spent in cash become effective "doesn't need to bother with the bookkeeping part of spending money" rather than the "has money available to him" that I paid for. But in general, yes, Wealth is grease to get the economic machinery around you going your way smoothly. This generally is a better way to treat wealth, in my opinion, than D&D does. But it does create some problems as either it is unbalanced for the cp (i.e. since you're a billionare, you can get a base, multiple vehicles, and a horde of followers for no cp) or it's unrealistic (if you're a billionare, you can easily put a billion dollars toward having a base, multiple vehicles, and a horde of followers without making a real dent in your wealth). So in the end if you spend 15 cp on wealth to be a billionare, you have 15 less cp available to buy the other advantages that come from wealth. That 15 cp is just the power to pay people in game to do stuff for you.

 

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

It seems I have been fortunate in my gaming groups. Most of us play both d20 and HEROS. Those of us who have played both think that HEROS is, indeed, the better system. But d20 is easier to learn in small doses, for new players.

 

So when we are bringing a new player into this glorious hobby we share, we start off with d20 for one campaign. Then we start a new campaign with HEROS...

 

My Hero gaming group almost entirely also plays d20. So we play D&D on Saturdays and Hero on Sundays. I find the D&D combats a lot more engaging (I'm loving 4e) and the rest satisfactory. I find the HERO plotlines a lot more engaging (I've got an awesome GM), and the rest satisfactory. Between the two, my weekends are pretty awesome but I wouldn't be willing to give up either one in the long term.

[Maur]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

My Hero gaming group almost entirely also plays d20. So we play D&D on Saturdays and Hero on Sundays. I find the D&D combats a lot more engaging (I'm loving 4e) and the rest satisfactory. I find the HERO plotlines a lot more engaging (I've got an awesome GM)' date=' and the rest satisfactory. Between the two, my weekends are pretty awesome but I wouldn't be willing to give up either one in the long term.[/quote']

Well, plotlines aren't really game system specific. I've played in a number of different systems with both good and ok plotlines in each. Really plotlines are more GM and group specific