How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

[proditor]

I'll explain, though my guess is some folk know what I'm talking about already.

 

What do you do when you get the guy who says "Well, d20 is superior because it can do anything! Look at all these massively expensive books I can buy to run what I want!"

 

And you say, "Yeah, but with Hero, I spend less money, get more and better rules and I can do anything I can think of with minimal work. Once you know the rules, Hero can do literally anything. No need to make new feats or skills or classes. Just figure out some basics and go."

 

To which you get a sniff and a derisive sneer.

 

How do you "convert" those who are so stuck on WoTC that they won't even look at anything else? If this were about 6 years ago, I'd be asking how you do the same with White Wolf players, but that's another rant.

[Eclipse]

You cannot teach those who are unwilling to learn.

[Snarf]

Just let it go. Nothing you say will change that guy's mind and he's entitled to his opinion.

[Farkling]

Hey....I like White Wolf!

I can;t STAND Vampyre though, and the Changeling games I played in were eldritch, but wierd.

 

I've played Mage for years... (couldn't find any Hero players, or people willing to learn)

 

Exalted is a niche game that could definitely be simulated in Hero, but I am LOUSY at high cinema anime adventures...so our reformed Vampyre GM runs it with White Wolf's system.

 

He was reformed from Vampyre to Mage...from Munchkin to Master, We have recently started on the corrupting path of Hero now, since it is EVER so much easier for me to run a Hero game over a Mage game, what with retuning to school and all. Look at all my helpful software!

 

As to the D20 aficiandos...one of my Hero players is an avid D20 gamer...has been for over 10 years...we discuss the options occasionally. He likes their homebrewed ADnD, and he likes Hero...especially with the software package to do the math. He has commented that HERO has great depth...and is much more complicated out of the box.

WE did discuss the "Heroization" of DnD with 3rd edition for a while...I dug out my surviving Hero book from the stone knives and bearskins days.

 

Heck...one player is a Palladium fanatic. He says HERO will do, for now...

 

As to the ones that won't listen...ignore 'em or challenge them to try it. And then get the rules to create what they want to play. THAT method works like a charm. Many D20 gamers are powergamers at heart...and they will like the direct Experience Points as points (like White Wolf ). The pure roleplayers among the D20 rollers in my experience have been shocked when I've said "yeah, that's a straight out of the box power. And you can design one that does THIS too"

[TheEmerged]

For one thing, stop thinking of them as drones. Your mindset will inevitably affect how you come across to them -- and with some experience in evangalizing in the literal and figurative sense, nothing will act as a stronger argument AGAINST your opinion than your attitude as you're currently describing it.

 

Forgive me the conceit of an example. There's a church I used to drive past on the way to work with a huge sign that read, "Sinners you are welcome here." While not as bad as another marquee I've seen ("Get saved or go to Hell."), it's easy to see that demeaning your target is hardly the way to encourage their attendence...

 

Then, and I'm not being sarcastic -- let them play d20 long enough. Its flaws become apparent with time. I'll be the first to tell you that patience is the dullest virtue; I'll also be the first to tell you it's the most effective. It would be one thing if you were trying to get them off drugs or something -- another entirely to affect preference.

 

Once you and your audience are prepared, focus on strengths not weaknesses. When you focus on the weaknesses of choice A you often do little but develop a resentment of choice B. If your target is intelligent they already KNOW the weaknesses from exposure to the product itself. Concentrate on what HERO can do, not what it does better than d20.

[tesuji]

You could just let them play the games they enjoy. Leave them trapped in their enjoyable games like the hapless drones they are. Hunker down and bear it as they continue to have fun without knowing and sharing the glory that is HERO.

 

Some people say living well is the best revenge... so why not sit back and relish the warming of the cockles of the soul as you look from afar at them having fun playing their d20 games and know "yeah they may think they are having fun, but without HERO, heck, they don't even know how bad they have it."

 

********************

 

In a serious vein, i have found thru system after system that a good GM will get plemnty of players thru running good games and getting great word of mouth. If his players are entertained and fun is being had, more will come.

 

That said, heavier systems such as HERO do have a reality issue to contend with... not everyone wants that level of weight. Some players want, silly as this may sound, a game where system is not something with a multi-year learning curve or where "play er ability at working the system" carries as much weight.

 

As such, in the real world, the complexity may drive some people away.

 

Sure, a good GM can work hard to cover and hide a lot of that behind his curtain, streamlining things for new guys and such, and probably that is a good place he can pour effort into.

[Pattern Ghost]

Two solutions:

 

1. Ignore them. They don't want to play what you like, so don't play with them. If you're going to call them "drones," then do you respect them enough to play with them at all?

 

2. Play d20. If the goal is to have a relaxing game of something, why not just go with the flow? d20 is better at some things than it is at others, just like most systems. If that situation comes up, point out that Hero can handle that better. (If it can.) Alternately, make sure you're not the d20 GM and have some stuff prepared in Hero in a genre you know most people like. Then, when there's a no-show of GM or of players, you can run a pick up game in Hero and see how they like it.

[JmOz]

I normaly just sell them there D20 books and move on.

 

It is kind of sad, the guy who runs D20 tournaments has decided from now on he is using a system from pinnicle called Savage Worlds...

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Snarf

Just let it go. Nothing you say will change that guy's mind and he's entitled to his opinion.

 

These boards (and perhaps the world) would be a lot more civil place if everyone understood that simple aspect of human behavior.

 

Keith "3 posts per argument is my absolute max" Curtis

[proditor]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

For one thing, stop thinking of them as drones. Your mindset will inevitably affect how you come across to them -- and with some experience in evangalizing in the literal and figurative sense, nothing will act as a stronger argument AGAINST your opinion than your attitude as you're currently describing it.

 

Forgive me the conceit of an example. There's a church I used to drive past on the way to work with a huge sign that read, "Sinners you are welcome here." While not as bad as another marquee I've seen ("Get saved or go to Hell."), it's easy to see that demeaning your target is hardly the way to encourage their attendence...

 

Then, and I'm not being sarcastic -- let them play d20 long enough. Its flaws become apparent with time. I'll be the first to tell you that patience is the dullest virtue; I'll also be the first to tell you it's the most effective. It would be one thing if you were trying to get them off drugs or something -- another entirely to affect preference.

 

Once you and your audience are prepared, focus on strengths not weaknesses. When you focus on the weaknesses of choice A you often do little but develop a resentment of choice B. If your target is intelligent they already KNOW the weaknesses from exposure to the product itself. Concentrate on what HERO can do, not what it does better than d20.

Wow, that may be one of the best ideas (The whole thing) I've read about how to deal with the situation. You're right, my denigration of their favorite is not likely to win converts. I guess I just let it get to me too much. I've playtested for Mongoose and been a constant DM in TT and MUXing since 3.0 came out, and I'm just so burned on the system and it's flaws that I get vitrolic over it at times. I have, and will continue, to take your advice to heart though. I actually put it into play a little earlier today when a friend called to complain about something in 3.5. We talked about the mechanic for a while, and when I was saying "Yeah, I guess we could kludge a fix by doing X" I then paused a long moment and he said "What?" My response was something along the lines of "Hmmm, that's not an issue with Hero." By the end of the conversation, he asked when I'm going to run either Champions or Fantasy Hero.

Sidebar: I know that other folk are entitled to their opinion, but by that very definition, I'm entitled to mine as well.

[Vondy]

To each his own. Some people are Heroes and some are... not Heroes.

 

The closed mind can only be opened by the one who weilds it. You cannot compell another to accept your view, and as others have pointed out, your expressed attitude will not translate well in terms of reasoning with someone.

 

Futher, referring to someone as a drone because they have an opinion that is different from your own is, perhaps, a little conceited. Especially when the topic at hand is, in the end, just a game.

 

Don't get me wrong. I concur with your view that Hero is the superior system, and I concur with your observation that most d20 fanatics are talking out of their tuches (they can't knock it if they aren't willing to try it), but really, drones?

 

Are we heroes so brittle, I ask, that we cannot say "live and let live?" Or so closed minded ourselves that we cannot tolerate someone whose tastes are divergent from our own?

[Chris Goodwin]

On the Pyramid boards they call it Hurting Wrong Fun. "How can anyone be having fun with such an inferior system? I mean, honestly!"

[BobGreenwade]

Living Epistles

 

My take on it is, let your game be its own best example. Run a game (ideally in some genre or setting type that doesn't have a D20 book out yet) and make it the most fun and exciting game you possibly can. Play it out in the open where the D20 drones* can see what's going on, or have conversations with your players about the game where the D20 drones can hear it. Make your setting, exciting, colorful, lifelike, humorous, and everything else good that you can think of.

 

*Yes, drones. These are the mindless sort who simply cannot think past their own experiences. It's not specific to D20; there are, no doubt, plenty of Hero System drones. The only reason we find more D20 drones than anyone else is that there are more D20 players than anyone else. I've known and met all sorts of drones in my life -- following Limbaugh or Stern, Reagan or Clinton, guilt or innocence of a certain accused criminal (usually Nixon or Simpson), all manner of religious mindsets (including -- no, especially -- atheism), all manner of social and economic theories, and I don't even know what else. I even knew a woman once who refused to even conceive of a way of thought beyond bitterness. It's all in the mindset, not in what's being adhered to.

[Farkling]

*waves hand*

 

I know a HERO system drone. I don't play i his games anymore...neither do some of his former players...

[Adventus]

I bought a d20 book because the premise sounded cool. 75% of the book was on how to alter the d20 system to allow you to play in the campaign system. The whole time I was reading it, I kept thinking how much easier it was do in hero. If this book was written for hero, It would have been about 80 pages. In d20, it ran about 250 pages.

[Old Man]

I like to carry a claw hammer with me in case I run into any d20 drones. When I find them I strike them repeatedly in the skull with the claw end of the hammer until they either convert to Heroism, or die.

 

No converts so far.

 

I'd include a tongue-in-cheek smiley here if I could.

[McCoy]

What if the bird will not sing?

 

Oda Nobunaga: "Kill it."

 

Toyotomi Hideyoshi: "Make it want to sing."

 

Tokugawa Ieyasu: "Wait."

[Beetle]

Originally posted by Old Man

I like to carry a claw hammer with me in case I run into any d20 drones. When I find them I strike them repeatedly in the skull with the claw end of the hammer until they either convert to Heroism, or die.

 

No converts so far.

 

I'd include a tongue-in-cheek smiley here if I could.

Beware of HERO fundamentalists!

[bjbrown]

Don't try to "convert" people. Ultimately, whether a game is fun or not depends not on the game system, but on the campaign concept and the GM's ability. So, instead of promoting Hero System to potential players, promote your campaign to potential players. If your campaign interests players, they are far less likely to turn down playing because of the specific game system used.

 

And hopefully Sidekick should help with recruiting players that way. If they can obtain the rules for a $2 download, then the burden of buying a new rulebook is no longer a good excuse for not wanting to play a new game system.

 

And then some people are just stubborn, and won't change their minds. I won't play Living Greyhawk with some of my friends (though I think Living Greyhawk is a great game idea). There are a few reasons why I don't play, but one is that I just didn't feel like learning 3rd Edition AD&D rules (even though I know 1st and 2nd Ed. Ad&D thoroughly). I'm just stubborn that way. As a matter of fact, if 3rd Edition AD&D hadn't come out, I probably would still be running an AD&D campaign rather than a Fantasy Hero campaign. Switching to Fantasy Hero, with which I was already somewhat familiar, was just more appealing to me than switching to 3rd Ed. AD&D.

[bubba smith]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

show them a copy of NINJA HERO THAT might interest themM

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

What if the bird will not sing?

 

Oda Nobunaga: "Kill it."

 

Toyotomi Hideyoshi: "Make it want to sing."

 

Tokugawa Ieyasu: "Wait."

 

You must spread rep. . .

[bubba smith]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

You must spread rep. . .

got him for you

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

You let people play what they want to play. It's their money, their time, their choice.

 

You just say, "You like what you like, I like what I like, good day," and move on.

 

It's just a game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

To be fair, d20 can do a lot. Dragon magazine used to run with Polyhedron for a while and every month there was a full mini-game based on a different genre - pulp, post apocalypse, modern fantasy, all sorts of stuff. It used the basic character class idea and levelling and such, and the d20 mechanics, but built to the feel of the genre. Pretty good stuff.

 

Here's a sacreligious idea. Explain that d20 is not that far off the mechanics of Hero.

 

Hero rolls 3d6 and you have to roll less than or equal to 11+(Your Bonus)-(Opponent's Bonus).

 

d20 rolls d20 and you have to roll more than or equal to 10+(Your Bonus)-(Opponent's Bonus).

 

This means that the core mechanic are startlingly similar, and the chance of succeeding at an average task in either game is similar too (62.5% in Hero, 55% in d20). In fact if you flip the Hero roll around (so you have to roll MORE than or equal to 10+(Your Bonus)-(Opponent's Bonus), the core mechanics are identical apart from this probability spread.

 

Hero doesn't use Armour Class as such but subtracts defences from damage scored.

 

d20 folds how hard you are to hit and how hard you are to damage into one roll. On average both systems give similar results - heavily armoured guys are hard to hurt.

 

Mechanically there is really not that much difference at all.

 

The difference comes in character creation and advancement, where Hero is far more flexible, but more complex. However, Hero can be made to operate like d20 creation and advancement if that is what you really enjoy.

 

Both systems have considerable merits and can be very enjoyable, but, I'd suggest Hero lets you realise pretty much any concept you want, at least eventually, whereas d20 proscribes what you can do and where you can go with that to a much higher degree, at a cost, in many but not all cases, of greater complexity.

 

We tend to think of limits on our creativity as a bad thing, and it may well be, but then there is an enormous amount of choice in d20, more than any one person would ever get to fuly play, so the differences may well be more philosophical than actual.

 

So, how do I deal with WoTC drones? Build their first character based on a small number of archetypes I suggest to them then just get them playing. Emphasise the similarities between the systems. Don't let them near character creation until they actually beg.

 

Very soon they'll be Hero drones

[Egyptoid]

Re: How do you guys deal with WoTC drones?

 

I don't see them trying Hero, much less converting,

until they've been in a play session, or watched a play session,

wherein the players and the GM were all having fun.

 

If they can experience people having fun with Hero,

where their first experience is the story, and NOT how

did we set up the story (ie with number crunching).

 

A lame analogy would be: Millions enjoyed watching FANTASTIC FOUR.

a few thousand enjoyed watching THE MAKING of the FANTASTIC FOUR.