Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

[Jas]

Something I'm trying to come to terms with, so please bear with me while I spitball a bit over the notion of speed, turns, phases and segments.

 

If I have a SPD of 3, I get to act three times in twelve seconds. Every four seconds, by the default reading of the rules. The question then arises as to what I'm up to during the other nine seconds in the twelve second turn - did I use up the three seconds leading up to my phase in preparation for what I did in that phase? If so, shouldn't I have to declare it pretty much as soon as my last phase ended, so that other characters who are acting before me can react to my activities? Or is it the other way around, I do something on my phase, it takes the whole phase (or perhaps it was an attack and while only using a half phase, it ended my actions for the segment) - and then I'm doing something associated with the action for the next three seconds until my next phase arrives. That explains why I keep getting bonuses for my Martial Dodge. I'm spending the intervening segments jitterbugging around in my hex, making it hard to hit me. But if my action was to fire a semi-automatic pistol, I've managed to fire a single shot and then sit and wait three seconds, effectively reacting to the pull of the trigger.

 

Now, I'm no marital arts superhero, so my SPD in real life is probably closer to 2, if not 1 (what can I say, I'm a stereotypical older gamer) - but I know for a fact that if you put a pistol in my hand I can get off more than two aimed shots in twelve seconds - maybe only four or five, if the caliber was large, but still...

 

It's very abstract, and I'm trying to make it more concrete - maybe a wasted exercise. I wonder about how to make these things work for me in my desire to take a system that's self-described as being much more dramatic and cinematic than realistic, and make it more realistic.

 

Ideas?

[Ndreare]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Well my characters tend to sprint to were then need to go, then stick their hands in their pockets waiting for their next phase. since DCV does not cost endurance it is invisable, so I do not even have to move or be 'seen' to evade.

;-)

[Ndreare]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

All joking aside, I always considered Speed a measure of hesitation to action as much as reaction. I can sit and beat the snot out of a heavy bag a hit every second or two, but in real combat things slow down. There is no way I get 12 attacks in a Turn.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

In 6e see Multiple Attack (5e split it up based on range; HTH = Sweep, Ranged = Rapid Fire).

 

From 6e2 page 73:

 

This Maneuver allows a character to make more than one attack in a Phase, either at a single target or at multiple targets, in either HTH Combat, Ranged Combat, or a mixture of the two.

 

Multiple Attack allows a character to:

 

• make multiple strikes against a single target with a single attack
  
• make multiple strikes against a single target with multiple forms of attack
  
• make multiple strikes against multiple targets with a single attack
  
• make multiple strikes against multiple targets with multiple forms of attack
  
• freely mix HTH and Ranged, or non-Mental and Mental, attacks as part of the Multiple Attack sequence
  

 

Yes, there are penalties associated with attempting more than 1 attack per Phase but those can easily be overcome with Combat Skill Levels.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Basically, characters CAN make 12 or more attacks per Turn without having a 12 SPD or an attack built with the Autofire Advantage. It just happens that making fewer attacks usually means they are more accurate.

[Jas]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

In 6e see Multiple Attack (5e split it up based on range; HTH = Sweep' date=' Ranged = Rapid Fire).[/quote']

And yet, it would still all take place, be resolved and the effects be felt on the same segment. I would start shooting at 12:24:14 and finish at 12:24:15, and then not do anything else until 12:24:20, assuming a SPD of 2. Should I assume I really was firing from 12:24:09 on through :14, or from :14 through to :19 or something else entirely?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Well my characters tend to sprint to were then need to go, then stick their hands in their pockets waiting for their next phase. since DCV does not cost endurance it is invisable, so I do not even have to move or be 'seen' to evade.

;-)

 

Keep that in mind the next time a speedster attacks him with a HA built with the AOE Accurate Advantage (which reduces the target's DCV to 3 unless they Dodge or Dive For Cover).

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Keep that in mind the next time a speedster attacks him with a HA built with the AOE Accurate Advantage (which reduces the target's DCV to 3 unless they Dodge or Dive For Cover).

 

Or have Desolid built as a super dodge.

[Greywind]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Movement: you started moving in a non-SPD phase. When you move for your phase is just indicating where you ended up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Conceptually, your action takes place across the 4 second period. Practically, we have to divide the combat period into discrete sections in order to resolve it in an orderly fashion. "How fast can I pull the trigger" is not the same as "how fast can I line up the moving target across a chaotic field of combat and get a bead on my target that I think will hit him and not do any collateral damage".

[Jas]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Conceptually' date=' your action takes place across the 4 second period. Practically, we have to divide the combat period into discrete sections in order to resolve it in an orderly fashion. "How fast can I pull the trigger" is not the same as "how fast can I line up the moving target across a chaotic field of combat and get a bead on my target that I think will hit him and not do any collateral damage".[/quote']

 

This leads me to think that, for a very realistic style of play, I ought to enforce the optional rule to start combat on phase 1, rather than starting on phase 12 to give everyone a chance.

 

Also, which side of the fence do you stand on - the four seconds (for a SPD 3) start on your phase, or do they end on your phase?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

I think you are probably analyzing this too closely. To my thinking, SPD is more a book-keeping measure than a literal interpretation of what happens second to second. Yes, it does provide a yardstick for how fast someone might reasonably perform a series of actions, but like any gaming mechanic it is a simplification of reality for the sake of playability.

 

If you want a more nuanced time-keeping system you can use some of the suggestions above for getting around a rigid SPD chart. You can also tinker with initiative rules or how SPD is handled, although I find that that usually adds more complexity than it is worth, but YMMV.

[Barwickian]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

I honestly don't have problem with the speed chart as given.

 

12 segments, each of one second. Someone has SPD 2, each action will be about 6 seconds. Someone with SPD 4, each action about 3 seconds.

 

When they go on the SPD chart is simply when their action is resolved.

 

It's gamey, but no more so than initiative, or fire/movement/fire/melee breakdowns.

 

The only fluid action point system I've seen that's been workable is C&S4's, and even that has a few niggles.

[薔薇語]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Indeed, I am with Ockham's Spoon on this. You are vastly over analyzing this issue. The core feature that Speed brings to bear isn't cinematic but mechanical. It is there to inform us how to account for the various actions that any given player could perform inside a limited mark of time (12 seconds). Interior to that time, it is abstract and bear little resemblance to the cinematic features of your game.

 

I have always been of two minds on exactly how the cinematics resolve and will show preference to one or the other based on my mood at the time. The first is that, kind of as you suggested, all things take place over the course of your gap time. You and others may declare your actions and resolve them on Seg 4, but I view it as being the culmination of the 3 seconds of planning you had before it (building up speed - determining targets - taking aim - etc). That isn't to say that I require people to tell me what they will do on the next phase at the end of the first - but that cinematicly that is what is happening.

 

The other view I have had is that it really just does take the PC time to absorb information and give the order to his body to do something. And that gap in time is really why there exists the staggered speeds. The time inbetween is just the time it takes the character to think long enough to take another independently thought action.

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

La Rose.

[Jas]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

I suspect I'm just trying to make it too finely grained for what the system intends. I'm coming at this from GURPS with one second turns and would rather hew closer to that than the old D&D "lotsa stuff happens in a combat round" abstraction.

 

Between "slow reaction time means taking time to decide to do things" and "the slack time is build up to the resolution" and "it may not happen exactly when the speed chart says, but that's when we'll roll and resolve the results" I think I can suck it up.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

As others and yourself have stated, the action happens across the span of time between your current phase and your next phase. If your character performs a Full Move, at Speed 3, it takes the character the full 4 seconds to complete that Full Move. As far as attacks are concerned, it is the time it takes to assess the situation, decide on a course of action, implement it and recover. You are correct in saying that you can easily fire a gun multiple times in 4 seconds, or punch multiple times during a phase....and you can. That's what maneuvers like Sweep and Rapid Fire represent; the ability to attack multiple times during your phase. (this can be represented by Autofire and Area of Effect modifiers as well)

 

There are a lot of things going on in combat that are assumed. For example, your characters DCV. Your character has one because it is assumed that they are actively defending themselves during the phase. They are bobbing, weaving and ducking to avoid attacks as they counter-attack and move. This is the reason your character is allowed both a half-move and an attack action in the same phase. Your character can run across the room (half move) dive behind a couch for cover and fire at incoming attackers, all in a single phase. People don't just stand still in-between their phases. Everything that's happening, is happening at once. It's just hard to visualize this when you are sitting there waiting for your turn to come around at the table.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Non-phase segments are for the smokers.

 

Really it is no different to a game where you have one action per turn and an initiative order in that turn: what do DnD characters do between their turn and the next? Everything is still happening: you are still moving/dodging etc.

[griffinman01]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Like what other people have mentioned I've always seen this time as either the time it takes to fully set-up/finish your action or recover from the previous action. While you can fire a couple of shots with a pistol in a couple of seconds(ie, like rapid fire), they wont be very accurate (I've been to firing ranges a few times so I can tell you that it takes a normal person a couple of seconds to line up a decently accurate shot). Also think about how long it would take you to move X meters (more than a second I can assume) and also shake off getting hit by someone. If someone punches you, even if it doesn't do much damage, you still generally have to regain your balance or reset your fighting stance (unless you're trained, which is why martial artists have high speed in general). It's not only the time it takes you to complete the action but the time it takes to set up and reset from the action as well as processing the fight and determining the best course of action. Just look at any MMA fight. A good portion of the time neither guy is acting since they're trying to pick the best attack to use.

 

I think you're over-analyzing it but understanding the 'why' is always a good thing.

[Jas]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Non-phase segments are for the smokers.

 

Really it is no different to a game where you have one action per turn and an initiative order in that turn: what do DnD characters do between their turn and the next? Everything is still happening: you are still moving/dodging etc.

 

D&D is the worst offender of my sensibilities. "Roll once, and that'll determine the broad results of everything you did for the last ten seconds, offensively." No, thanks. I'm actually a fan of the GURPS one second rounds where actions are very atomic, and really generally enjoying the mechanics in the last few editions of RuneQuest, with their "special effects" based on mutual dice results.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

GURPS combat actions do not involve anything analogous to END or Recovery. Try acting every second in Hero and combats will be either very short (everyone falls over from exhaustion) or very long (everyone buys Zero END on everything, so attacks do less damage and less gets through defenses).

[Jas]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

GURPS combat actions do not involve anything analogous to END or Recovery. Try acting every second in Hero and combats will be either very short (everyone falls over from exhaustion) or very long (everyone buys Zero END on everything' date=' so attacks do less damage and less gets through defenses).[/quote']

 

That's very true. You can eventually get into advanced rules and see individuals burning Fatigue Points for maneuvers, and long combats can leave one fatigued, but it's not a default mechanic at all. Definitely something for me to keep in mind.

 

Like what other people have mentioned I've always seen this time as either the time it takes to fully set-up/finish your action or recover from the previous action. While you can fire a couple of shots with a pistol in a couple of seconds(ie, like rapid fire), they wont be very accurate (I've been to firing ranges a few times so I can tell you that it takes a normal person a couple of seconds to line up a decently accurate shot). Also think about how long it would take you to move X meters (more than a second I can assume) and also shake off getting hit by someone. If someone punches you, even if it doesn't do much damage, you still generally have to regain your balance or reset your fighting stance (unless you're trained, which is why martial artists have high speed in general). It's not only the time it takes you to complete the action but the time it takes to set up and reset from the action as well as processing the fight and determining the best course of action. Just look at any MMA fight. A good portion of the time neither guy is acting since they're trying to pick the best attack to use.

 

I suppose it does give a better feel for the sort of things that happen in real combats - where the fighters circle a bit between hits, sizing one another up.

 

I think you're over-analyzing it but understanding the 'why' is always a good thing.

 

Welcome to my style of gaming. I am beginning to realize that I prize simulation just a little too much in my games.

[gojira]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

D&D is the worst offender of my sensibilities. "Roll once' date=' and that'll determine the broad results of everything you did for the last ten seconds, offensively." No, thanks. I'm actually a fan of the GURPS one second rounds where actions are very atomic, and really generally enjoying the mechanics in the last few editions of RuneQuest, with their "special effects" based on mutual dice results.[/quote']

 

 

I can understand what you're saying. But in my opinion GURPS goes too far. It's pretty reasonable to assume that most of your turn is actually spend jinkin' and jivin', trying to line up a shot, moving away from a potentially dangerous situation, thinking defensive, dealing with adrenaline rush, etc.

 

Compare with something like Twilight 2000 that is supposed to somewhat accurately simulate modern combat. Actions are 5 seconds long, and as a rookie you get one 5 second action every 30 seconds. You're assumed to be able to take only that many effective actions per turn, because you're not really good at fighting, or timing your shots for when it's safe to fire, or just plain quaking in fear most of the time, etc. Those are realistic concerns, although I don't know how accurately T2000 simulates them.

 

My main concern with GURPS combat that with everyone already moving at 1 action per second, there's no room for improvement. GURPS didn't handle super well because there no real good way to be faster. They introduced quarter seconds or multiple actions or something in GURPS, but the results were really fiddly, imo, and I didn't care for them. Even in T2000, normal people could progress and increase their actions per turn by becoming experienced in dealing with the stress of combat. That feels a lot more "realistic" to me: people don't all have exactly the same effective actions, based on their familiarity with the situation.

 

And lastly, it's a game, and a simulation of people acting. Discreet turns is just a bookkeeping device. Yes it would be nice to smooth actions out over a phase, but it's kind of unrealistic to expect the GM and players to do that, and have fun at the same time. Discreet actions every three or four seconds are a reasonable compromise.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

If Joe Normal needing 6 seconds to take an action bothers you, reduce a turn's length to the duration you are more comfortable with. Should he only need 2 seconds (2 GURPS time units) to make a full action? OK, then, a turn is 4 seconds long and a segment is 1/3 of a second. That was easily resolved.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

Like what other people have mentioned I've always seen this time as either the time it takes to fully set-up/finish your action or recover from the previous action. While you can fire a couple of shots with a pistol in a couple of seconds(ie, like rapid fire), they wont be very accurate (I've been to firing ranges a few times so I can tell you that it takes a normal person a couple of seconds to line up a decently accurate shot). Also think about how long it would take you to move X meters (more than a second I can assume) and also shake off getting hit by someone. If someone punches you, even if it doesn't do much damage, you still generally have to regain your balance or reset your fighting stance (unless you're trained, which is why martial artists have high speed in general). It's not only the time it takes you to complete the action but the time it takes to set up and reset from the action as well as processing the fight and determining the best course of action. Just look at any MMA fight. A good portion of the time neither guy is acting since they're trying to pick the best attack to use.

 

I think you're over-analyzing it but understanding the 'why' is always a good thing.

 

As a former world champion over-analyser, I think that we can often learn stuff by looking at things we take for granted. The way I see it is that you are looking for an opportunity to take an effective action. I wrote (well, started to write) a game system once where, amongst other things, how quickly you could take your next action was dependent in part on how well you rolled for your current action: if you were a bit off, it took longer to recover, if you hit it just right, you could string together a combo*.

 

I like the Hero speed system, and consider it a core mechanic that makes Hero unique. If I have a criticism, it is a criticism that can be leveled at almost every other system: you can be pretty confident whether your next action is before or after your opponent's next action. This being Hero, you can, of course, sort that problem out with extra SPD on an activation roll (checked PS 12), so you don;t know what your SPD next turn is, or what your opponents is. Gets a bit complicated to administer though.

 

 

*It used a rolling initiative system that started at 0 and ticked up through the entire action sequence, so the next action you took was not necessarily as many ticks in the future as your last one was in the past and, more to the point, you could not necessarily predict whether you were going before or after your opponent next time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Non-Phase Segments - what is happening then?

 

D&D is the worst offender of my sensibilities. "Roll once' date=' and that'll determine the broad results of everything you did for the last ten seconds, offensively." No, thanks. I'm actually a fan of the GURPS one second rounds where actions are very atomic, and really generally enjoying the mechanics in the last few editions of RuneQuest, with their "special effects" based on mutual dice results.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure the current edition defines how long a turn is, but the in original, IIRC, a turn was a minute. There should probably have been an exclamation mark at the end of that last sentence.

 

I personally do not have any real problem with abstraction in terms of time: you are never going to actually model a reactive combat move for move in any event, or realistically compare the difference between the time it takes to throw a punch or a kick or level a weapon. What really matters about combat is who wins and what it cost them. You could do that with a single roll, but people would feel cheated. Well, some would.