runescience Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Hello, I ran a fantasy hero game last night. I was running one of kestrelarts dnd conversions and one of the npc's had a flash/blindness attack. One of my players stressed to me that being blinded in hero terms meant that his attack was at half ocv, but since he made a perception roll his dcv was only at -1. Had he not made his perception roll he would have been at half dcv. Im thinking to myself: who can make a sight perception roll while blinded? Isnt that an auto fail? The he explained that its a HEARING roll. Reason kicked in again and returned with: you are an a room, blinded with full fledge combat how can you distinguish sword slashes from ranged attacks to the giant spider trying to bite you? he was very adamant about it and pointed at the rules repeatedly. I still maintain blind is half ocv/half dcv. Its a very powerful attack but at the same time it was A) very rare, never used before and area effect. Can some one help me out here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness I don't have the rulebook handy at the moment but in the situation you describe (sight being 'blinded' by Flash, and a PER roll being made to mitigate the effects) the PER roll must be made with another Ranged Sense besides the one Flashed (like Hearing). HTH vs. Ranged attack also have different effects re: OCV & DCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runescience Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Straight hearing perception? 9+stat/5? no common sense thrown in? So you can keep your full DCV vs an attack while blinded in a full combat situation just by making a hearing roll? Thats borderline absurd. Lets try that in person. You cover your eyes in a noisy area, and duck the bow, or duck the spear Ill bring the bandaids and Mercurochrome. Im getting discouraged with the hero system again. Its love hate. I had other problems with the combat: attacking from behind aka running around opponents and stabbing them in the back (face palm), no zone of control for players, no opportunity attacks. It seems to work better as a super hero game. Im anxious to hear house rules for running a heroic fantasy hero game (vs super heroic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnister Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness From 5e pg 349, Lack Of Senses In Combat In combat, a character must normally use a Targeting Sense to detect his target. If he can do so, there is no change in his OCV or DCV, and combat proceeds normally. However, characters can’t always perceive their opponents with Targeting Senses. For example, a character may have been blinded by a Flash, or his opponent could be Invisible. When a character cannot perceive his opponent with any Targeting Sense, he suffers modifiers to his OCV and DCV: —In HTH Combat, the character is at ½ OCV and ½ DCV. This applies both to when he makes attacks in HTH Combat, and is attacked in HTH Combat. —In Ranged Combat, the character is at 0 OCV and ½ DCV. This applies both to when he makes attacks in Ranged Combat, and is attacked in Ranged Combat. If a character can make a PER Roll with a Nontargeting Sense (a Half Phase Action) to perceive a particular target, then against that target only he is at -1 DCV, ½ OCV when attacked or attacking in HTH Combat, and full DCV, ½ OCV when attacked from or attacking at Range. Against all other targets he is affected by the standard “lack of Targeting Sense” modifiers described above. So, the keys here are: 1) Has to make the PER roll (with modifiers), and; 2) ONLY verse a single opposing target. So, yeah, if he makes the PER roll, he's only -1 DCV. BUT, *YOU* get to determine the modifiers on the PER Roll. Quiet room, trying to listen for a single person: Normal PER roll. Noise Combat, lots of people involved: -5 (or more!..GM's decision) to PER roll. If you, as GM, determine that it's too noise to hear anything, you can even tell the player that he needs a critical 'hit' on the PER roll to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runescience Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Thank you both Binnister and Hyper-Man. I re read what you both wrote and put it into perspective that helps solve a big problem that I had last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Straight hearing perception? 9+stat/5? no common sense thrown in? So you can keep your full DCV vs an attack while blinded in a full combat situation just by making a hearing roll? Thats borderline absurd. Lets try that in person. You cover your eyes in a noisy area, and duck the bow, or duck the spear Ill bring the bandaids and Mercurochrome. Im getting discouraged with the hero system again. Its love hate. I had other problems with the combat: attacking from behind aka running around opponents and stabbing them in the back (face palm), no zone of control for players, no opportunity attacks. It seems to work better as a super hero game. Im anxious to hear house rules for running a heroic fantasy hero game (vs super heroic) How would that be less of an issue with a superhero game? IMO what you describe here isn't a system problem, it's an issue with the GM allowing that sort of goofiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Thats borderline absurd. Lets try that in person. If I were a protagonist in a fantasy story, I would. They would probably succeed at that, because they're awesome. I'm not. HERO rules are not supposed to be realistic. They're supposed to model cinematic action. That said, I generally houserule out the 'attacked from behind in combat' modifier, no matter which genre of game I'm running. If someone wants to do that, they can make an Acrobatics check and go for a Surprise Move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness As the GM how would you feel if the player blinded your big bad and revised to play by the rules foreign you to accept him at half and half? The players characters are just as important as the antagonist. The players have played a game with you and determined their actions based on the rules or physics they understand. To change them and ignore them in mid game will lead to the players losing trust in you and enjoyment of the game. Our group ages to any rule deviation before play if one comes up during pay we age on the spot or favor the players character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus40218 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness That said' date=' I generally houserule out the 'attacked from behind in combat' modifier, no matter which genre of game I'm running. If someone wants to do that, they can make an Acrobatics check and go for a Surprise Move.[/quote'] I tend to agree. In one of my attempts to run Fantasy HERO, with the "attacked from behind" modifier in play, the players and their adversaries basically played leap-frog to get that advantage against their opponents for every attack...While HERO wasn't intended to be entirely realistic, it simply got ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness I tend to agree. In one of my attempts to run Fantasy HERO' date=' with the "attacked from behind" modifier in play, the players and their adversaries basically played leap-frog to get that advantage against their opponents for every attack...While HERO wasn't intended to be entirely realistic, it simply got ridiculous.[/quote'] which is actually less ridiculous than in d20 when you have people jockeying to get into "Flanking" position so they can get their +2 to hit and so the Folk with sneak attack damage can do that damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Straight hearing perception? 9+stat/5? no common sense thrown in? So you can keep your full DCV vs an attack while blinded in a full combat situation just by making a hearing roll? Thats borderline absurd. Lets try that in person. You cover your eyes in a noisy area, and duck the bow, or duck the spear Ill bring the bandaids and Mercurochrome. Im getting discouraged with the hero system again. Its love hate. I had other problems with the combat: attacking from behind aka running around opponents and stabbing them in the back (face palm), no zone of control for players, no opportunity attacks. It seems to work better as a super hero game. Im anxious to hear house rules for running a heroic fantasy hero game (vs super heroic) The rules allow for imposing penalties to movement speed or combat value, or forcing a roll to move, due to circumstances; in fact, they're written into the Change Environment Power. You don't have to make anyone buy the Power to define a combatant's "zone of control" as an environment that may require, for example, an Acrobatics roll to move around to behind the combatant, any more than someone needs to buy a Power to force everyone to make DEX rolls if there's a pool of oil on the floor. As for the effects of Flash, if I recall correctly, don't you have to make a Perception roll for every single attack? It's not necessarily an unmodified one either. Lucius Alexander My palindromedary sense is tingling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness which is actually less ridiculous than in d20 when you have people jockeying to get into "Flanking" position so they can get their +2 to hit and so the Folk with sneak attack damage can do that damage. No, I think 'I run circles around this guy sticking him in the back every time' is more ridiculous than 'let's double-team this guy'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness No' date=' I think 'I run circles around this guy sticking him in the back every time' is more ridiculous than 'let's double-team this guy'.[/quote'] I'd agree. But it's also against hero rules. Hero characters have no "facing", so you can't just walk around them and get a bonus. You can get a bonus attacking from behind by surprise or if they can't move for some reason - but walking around someone is not going to surprise them. I'm away from home, so without my books, but that point is explicitly made. Basically as a GM, it's important to realise that characters are not frozen in place, just because they are not acting. They can still react, talk, even abort to an action, etc. So you walk around a foe. He turns to face you. Sorry, no leapfrog bonuses for you! It's exactly the same as him keeping his shield bonus to DCV, if you move: he moves his shield so that it's still in the way. Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepia Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness And it is a game, the characters are supposed to be the hero's in HERO...give it to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness And it is a game' date=' the characters are supposed to be the hero's in HERO...give it to them.[/quote'] Why? being the PCs has never equaled "do anything at all no matter how stupid" and lets face it, hop-frog back attacks are pretty ****ing stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness I would disagree the gm uses the power to ignore the rules only works for the gm or in the villains favor? As a player that is the kind of one sidedness that sends most looking for a new gm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Hero characters have no "facing"' date=' [/quote'] Can I get a quote or cite of some sort on that, please? I went looking through my 5e book for such a rule not long ago, and was unable to find it. (Not trying to be argumentative, I honestly hope you're right ... but if that rule is in the book, I can't freakin' find it!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness From the sidebar of 6E2 pg. 26: FACINGGenerally speaking, the HERO System doesn’t have any rules for facing (i.e., which direction a character’s looking toward). The only specific rules in the system for changing facing are for Teleportation (6E1 300). If an issue pertaining to facing comes up in the game, changing facing while Running, Leaping, Swimming, Swinging, or Tunneling is a Zero Phase Action in most circumstances. That means a character can’t do it after performing a Full Phase Action, but the GM can rule otherwise based on the situation, the abilities involved, common and dramatic sense, and other relevant factors. Changing facing with Flight or Teleportation depends on Turn Modes and/or the the use of the Position Shift Adder. See also Surprised And Facing, 6E2 50. Pretty sure there was a similar in 5ER, though I don't have a PDF of it at work. Surprised and facing from 6E2 pg 50: SURPRISED AND FACINGOne of the most common ways for a character to be Surprised is to be attacked from behind. However, that’s not to say that all attacks from behind qualify for the Surprised bonus. As always, the GM should apply common sense and dramatic sense — remember, combat is a dynamic situation where the rules reflect many variables. For example, if an opponent a character doesn’t know about attacks him from behind, that usually means the character is Surprised (though not necessarily, as discussed above). But if the character knows about or can see an opponent, that opponent can’t get a Surprised bonus just by making a Half Move behind the character before attacking. The opponent might get the bonus if the character is distracted (for example, if he’s already fighting one foe who’s in front of him), but moving behind a character before attacking does not per se earn an attacker a Surprised bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness I would disagree the gm uses the power to ignore the rules only works for the gm or in the villains favor? As a player that is the kind of one sidedness that sends most looking for a new gm. Who are you disagreeing with? If it's me, I haven't suggested the GM change any rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness The op choose to ignore the rules because he did not like the effect. This penalized the player. The nature of the topic is justifying an advisarial call. I assumed your comment was in line with the previous comment and the rules favor ing the heroes as it is only a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 Re: aggrovated over flash/Blindness Can I get a quote or cite of some sort on that, please? I went looking through my 5e book for such a rule not long ago, and was unable to find it. (Not trying to be argumentative, I honestly hope you're right ... but if that rule is in the book, I can't freakin' find it!) Bigbywolfe got exactly the two quotes I was thinking of, so nothing extra from me. But those two quotes make it explicit that you should not be able to play leapfrog and expect to get a bonus. As a general rule, if what's being suggested sounds really stupid, it's probably a misunderstanding of the rules: they've been given a pretty solid fine-tuning by many, many, many players through the years. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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