6th Edition question: How does Damage Negation work?

[phoenix240]

I'm considering importing this power into my hybrid game but I think I'm not understanding how it functions clearly. Can anyone provide a simple, straight forward example of how it works?

[Hyper-Man]

If a character has xD6 of Damage Negation and is hit by a 15d6 attack (assume both are Engergy for this example) then the 1st character applies 15-xd6 against the REST of his defenses (including any KB Resistance). If the GM wants to keep the power secret when used by a villain one way is to have players roll ALL attack dice and then remove 1high/1low/1high/1low/etc enough time from the final result to match the xD6 of Damage Negation.

[phoenix240]

If a character has xD6 of Damage Negation and is hit by a 15d6 attack (assume both are Engergy for this example) then the 1st character applies 15-xd6 against the REST of his defenses (including any KB Resistance). If the GM wants to keep the power secret when used by a villain one way is to have players roll ALL attack dice and then remove 1high/1low/1high/1low/etc enough time from the final result to match the xD6 of Damage Negation.

 

All right that's what I thought but some other comments made me question this initial impression. Sounds pretty straight forward. It seems like a good way build bricks as seen in the Invincible series that are practically invulnerable to most forces but can beat each other to a pulp even kill each other with relative ease.

[Christopher]

 

All right that's what I thought but some other comments made me question this initial impression. Sounds pretty straight forward. It seems like a good way build bricks as seen in the Invincible series that are practically invulnerable to most forces but can beat each other to a pulp even kill each other with relative ease.

It is a not entirely correct calculation. A soon as davantages that affect DC calculation* come into the calculation it get's more dificulty:

 

DN doesn't negate Dice. It negates Damage Classes. In simple cases of attack powers this is easy. 1d6 Normal Damage is 1 Damage Class, 1d6 KA are 3 DC. 1d6KA, double penetrating (+1) is 6 DC.

But there are difficulty cases: 1d6 Normal Damage + 1xArmor Piercing is 1.25 DC; 1d6 KA, 0 END (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) is 4.5 DC

Especially for AoE (the advantage affects DC calculation) things can be a hassle to work out on the fly: Because the GM first has to throw the dice for your Character, then the dice your DN negated for the others.

Once DN is in the game, it is adviseable for the GM to know the DC count and DC/Dice ratio for all powers in advance.

 

*Not all advantages coung for Endurance Calcualtion. Not all count for DC calculation. But all count for Active Point Calculation.

[Hyper-Man]

Bumping for new members to see (*recent question in the rules forum).

[dmjalund]

Only Steve can answer in the ri\ules forum, and probably won't because he may consider it a philosphical question.

 

One difference is that damage negated by Damage Negation does not count towartds knockback

[Aversill]

The easiest way is to just remove multiples of the average on the damage dice.  If someone's throwing 2 dice, but 3 DCs are represented by those two dice, and there's one less DC because of damage negation, I would just remove a 1/3 of the damage and call it a day.  This is not entirely in the spirit of damage negation, but seriously, life's too short to figure out how to get players to roll 1.66 dice.

 

I'm kind of curious, though, how people handle max DC for things like HKAs and breakable foci.  If I max out my HKA, and I still have Str left over, does Damage Negation stop the excess Str from reinvigorating the attack?  So, if I had a 1d6 HKA and 30 Str, I max out at adding 3 DCs, but I could potentially add 6.  If there's three levels of DN against me, do I have a 2d6 HKA or a 1d6 HKA (assuming that no one rules that the DN stops the HKA damage first and therefore stops the potential Str bonus altogether)?

[NuSoardGraphite]

It is a not entirely correct calculation. A soon as davantages that affect DC calculation* come into the calculation it get's more dificulty:DN doesn't negate Dice. It negates Damage Classes. In simple cases of attack powers this is easy. 1d6 Normal Damage is 1 Damage Class, 1d6 KA are 3 DC. 1d6KA, double penetrating (+1) is 6 DC.But there are difficulty cases: 1d6 Normal Damage + 1xArmor Piercing is 1.25 DC; 1d6 KA, 0 END (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) is 4.5 DCEspecially for AoE (the advantage affects DC calculation) things can be a hassle to work out on the fly: Because the GM first has to throw the dice for your Character, then the dice your DN negated for the others.Once DN is in the game, it is adviseable for the GM to know the DC count and DC/Dice ratio for all powers in advance.*Not all advantages coung for Endurance Calcualtion. Not all count for DC calculation. But all count for Active Point Calculation.

In these cases, would ignore advantages and simply remove damage classes based on the DC chart. Damage negation of 2 would drop a 6 dc killing damage attack (2d6k) to 4 dc attack (1d6+1k) no matter the advantages applied. just seems so much easier this way.

 

When you add damage from martial arts maneuvers, bonus DC, and combat skill levels, you dont account for advantages, so why not do the same with damage negation?

[Hyper-Man]

Actually, in 6e, all extra damage from STR and maneuvers is also prorated for all damage adding advantages on the HA.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Actually, in 6e, all extra damage from STR and maneuvers is also prorated for all damage adding advantages on the HA.

Ah. i see. yet more reason to stick with 5th.

[Christougher]

Actually, in 6e, all extra damage from STR and maneuvers is also prorated for all damage adding advantages on the HA.

 

 

Ah. i see. yet more reason to stick with 5th.

 

I disagree.  Even though I'm a diehard 5E grognard, that's a plus.  Exceptions and loopholes are bad things.

 

In fact, from my house rules:

 

Adding Damage:

   The half page long, overly complex, loophole filled rules for adding damage are thrown out in favor the much simpler version listed here.  Actual damage amounts should be largely unchanged.

   The base attack is generally the largest damage component unless specialized damage (Killing, Advantages other than Reduced END) is used.  All added damage is prorated for specialized damage, and the total damage cannot exceed twice the base attack.

 

Chris.

[Hyper-Man]

Ah. i see. yet more reason to stick with 5th.

 

The 6e version is actually more consistent and requires less exceptions to remember than 5e/5er did.

[Christopher]

Bumping for new members to see (*recent question in the rules forum).

I guess you mean this one here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88365-questions-about-damage-negation/

 

I like the posters approach of just rolling dice to counter the effect (but again you have to acount for Advantages).

Using the average of Aversill would make this easier somewhat, but might end being better or worser depending on how you round.

 

It would help to know how much DN was used in HMI to come up with a fast way for this.

 

This is not entirely in the spirit of damage negation, but seriously, life's too short to figure out how to get players to roll 1.66 dice.

That never was a question. He throws 2 Dice.

The default rounding rule is: Round up or down if not .5. If .5, round in wichever way is better for the Character.

 

I'm kind of curious, though, how people handle max DC for things like HKAs and breakable foci.  If I max out my HKA, and I still have Str left over, does Damage Negation stop the excess Str from reinvigorating the attack?  So, if I had a 1d6 HKA and 30 Str, I max out at adding 3 DCs, but I could potentially add 6.  If there's three levels of DN against me, do I have a 2d6 HKA or a 1d6 HKA (assuming that no one rules that the DN stops the HKA damage first and therefore stops the potential Str bonus altogether)?

That is not a matter of Breakable Focus. The "No more then double DC" Rule was put into the "Str Limitation" and "Real Weapons" Limitations respectively, not the Focus rule. It is also listed in one of the Toolkitting Sections as sugested Campaign Rule for heroic games.

Also you seem to be wrong about how it works. The rule(s) say:

"A character cannot do more then double Base DC. But they can exceed double Base DC if the weapon takes full damage from the attack."

The source of the extra damage is irrelevant and you can break a weapon by Haymakering it*. And judging how DN works with AOE, the weapon would take the full damage while the target takes only what get's past it's DN.

 

*Remmeber that Rules effect does not equal effect description. Your "Haymaker that breaks the dagger" might look like "putting a dagger in the eye", but maybe the dagger get's stuck so you cannot get it loose. Or breaks inside the foe when hitting the skull. In either case the weapon is as useless as if it was broken.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I disagree. Even though I'm a diehard 5E grognard, that's a plus. Exceptions and loopholes are bad things.

 

In fact, from my house rules:

 

Adding Damage:

The half page long, overly complex, loophole filled rules for adding damage are thrown out in favor the much simpler version listed here. Actual damage amounts should be largely unchanged.

The base attack is generally the largest damage component unless specialized damage (Killing, Advantages other than Reduced END) is used. All added damage is prorated for specialized damage, and the total damage cannot exceed twice the base attack.

 

Chris.

Are you talking about those convoluted damage rules about how much str one could add to an advantaged attack that were tacked on to 5Er? the one's i ignored in the first place?

 

I neither prorate for advantages on STR nor maneuver/CSLs. never have. never plan to. i like a straight add. +5 STR = +1DC. Nice and simple. keeps my players happy. the less math necessary during gameplay for unaccounted for situations, the faster/smoother gameplay will resolve. never let RAW get in the way of smooth gameplay.

[Christopher]

I think adding and removing DC can be done in game, even with heavily advantaged attacks. Asuming you write two values down in advance for each power:

DC of the attack.

DC/die Ratio of the attack.

 

1. 9D6 Blast, Armor Piercing(+1/4) would be:

11 DC

11/9 (you could round it to 12/9 without loosing much precision, wich is shortened to 4/3 easily).

 

2. 8d6 Blast, Penetrating (+1/2) would be:

12 DC

3/2

 

3. 6D6 Blast, Penetrating (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2)* would be:

9 DC

9/6 or 3/2 in short

 

4. 6D6 Blast, Some Stuff that Counts (+3/4) would be:

10 DC

5/3

 

5. 6D6 Blast, Some other Stuff that Counts (+1) would be:

12 DC

2/1

 

Adding 4 DC from haymaker to each and rounding the usual HERO way would result in:

1. 15 DC - 11 Dice (used the rounded 4/3 ratio)

2. 16 DC - 11 Dice

3. 13 DC - 9 Dice

4. 14 DC - 8 Dice

5. 16 DC - 8 dice (that is one you can do in your head).

 

One Addition, One Multiplication, one Division (do it in that order. Dvision before Multiplication only introduces Decimal Imprecision with calculators). My 10 Year old monochrome display mobile phone can do that.

For KA, just remmeber that 3 Normal Dice = 1 KA Dice. So Dice/3, with the rest being either:

+0, +1, +1/2D6 or 1D6-1**

 

 

*While this one counts for general AP, it does not counts for DC calculations. For the DC calcualtion this is a 45 AP or 9 DC attack, not a 60 DC attack.

 

**GM choice wich to use. The half die is the more common used (1-3 Spred), but the other one is acutally easier to roll (0-5 Spread).

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think adding and removing DC can be done in game, even with heavily advantaged attacks. Asuming you write two values down in advance for each power:

DC of the attack.

DC/die Ratio of the attack.

 

1. 9D6 Blast, Armor Piercing(+1/4) would be:

11 DC

11/9 (you could round it to 12/9 without loosing much precision, wich is shortened to 4/3 easily).

 

2. 8d6 Blast, Penetrating (+1/2) would be:

12 DC

3/2

 

3. 6D6 Blast, Penetrating (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2)* would be:

9 DC

9/6 or 3/2 in short

 

4. 6D6 Blast, Some Stuff that Counts (+3/4) would be:

10 DC

5/3

 

5. 6D6 Blast, Some other Stuff that Counts (+1) would be:

12 DC

2/1

 

Adding 4 DC from haymaker to each and rounding the usual HERO way would result in:

1. 15 DC - 11 Dice (used the rounded 4/3 ratio)

2. 16 DC - 11 Dice

3. 13 DC - 9 Dice

4. 14 DC - 8 Dice

5. 16 DC - 8 dice (that is one you can do in your head).

 

One Addition, One Multiplication, one Division (do it in that order. Dvision before Multiplication only introduces Decimal Imprecision with calculators). My 10 Year old monochrome display mobile phone can do that.

For KA, just remmeber that 3 Normal Dice = 1 KA Dice. So Dice/3, with the rest being either:

+0, +1, +1/2D6 or 1D6-1**

 

 

*While this one counts for general AP, it does not counts for DC calculations. For the DC calcualtion this is a 45 AP or 9 DC attack, not a 60 DC attack.

 

**GM choice wich to use. The half die is the more common used (1-3 Spred), but the other one is acutally easier to roll (0-5 Spread).

hmmm...I'm pretty sure my players wouldn't want to deal with that and I feel it would still slow gameplay.

[Hyper-Man]

I think adding and removing DC can be done in game, even with heavily advantaged attacks. Asuming you write two values down in advance for each power:

DC of the attack.

DC/die Ratio of the attack.

 

1. 9D6 Blast, Armor Piercing(+1/4) would be:

11 DC

11/9 (you could round it to 12/9 without loosing much precision, wich is shortened to 4/3 easily).

 

2. 8d6 Blast, Penetrating (+1/2) would be:

12 DC

3/2

 

 

 

example 1 would actually be 4/5ths of the normal DC of Damage Negation (* +1/4 Advanatage = 1 & 1/4 or 5/4).

 

*Fractions, the hardest math involved in Hero!

 

Relevant examples from my starting version of Superman:

 

 

END 2

31) Super Punching v1: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; =; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to [sight Group] Remove if combined with an Advantage other than "AOE" since "Can Be Blocked & Dodged" would no longer apply (becomes 52 Active and 30 Real); +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; 6e damage prorating rules mean that STR and Manuever damage addes at 2/3 the normal rate (45 STR adds +6DC) VPP as Variable Advantage: AOE Accurate can be replaced with other appropriate Advantages adding up to +1/2 like Armor Piercing, Double Knockback, Indirect, Penetrating etc...; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Can Be Blocked & Dodged (The Dodge Bonus only adds to the base DCV (0 Since this is a No Range Atttack) Only CSL's usable with Dodge can increase this bonus; -1/4) Real Cost: 30

Notes: This slot normally represents punching at such Super Speed that the attack appears to be 'invisible'. Optionally, characters with enough levels of Rapid with Sight could still see the "Punch". In 6e, an HA combined with AOE Accurate is normally not Blockable or Dodgeable (changed from 5e). As built, only a target with Rapid Sight or a non-Sight based Targeting Sense could even perceive the attack coming and attempt a Block or Dodge.

0 5

32) Super Punching v2: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (Reduced Negation (6)), Armor Piercing (6e damage prorating rules mean that STR and Maneuver damage adds at 4/5 the normal rate (45 STR adds +7DC); +1/4) (52 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) Real Cost: 30

0

 

END 6

15) The Man of Steel v1: Damage Negation (-6 DCs Physical, -6 DCs Energy) (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; Only to Activate; -1/4) Real Cost: 30

Notes: This could optionally be used as -12 DCs vs just Phyical or just Energy. Damage Negation also effectively functions as Knockback Resistance.

0

[tomd1969]

Ah. i see. yet more reason to stick with 5th.

Actually, the rule exists in 5th, too. See the section "Adding Damage" in the part about "Determining Damage." In the original 5th (not Revised), this started at p. 270.

[Ndreare]

As a note the rules for adding damage classes can be ignored without affecting balance or play very much as long as you and your players age not to create broken or over the top HA or HKA.

We have always used a simple 5 base points per and it works out fine.