Something Borrowed - How Broken Is This?

[bigdamnhero]

I wanted to build a power for a villain PC in a low-powered Supers game where the character can steal her opponent's Focus and use it against them. (It's part of a Multipower limited to 1 Charge per slot per Day, so it's not something she can do over and over again.) The take-away part is a straight forward Telekinetic Grab. For the "use it against them" part...that type of imitation power is usually built as some kind of VPP. But since there's a Focus involved, it occurred to me you might be able to do it with Useable By Other as a Naked Modifier applied to the target's (Stolen) Focus, essentially turning it into a Universal Focus temporarily.

 

Something Borrowed: (Total: 45 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost)

Telekinesis (20 STR) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Disarm/Grab Weapons/Foci (-1) (Real Cost: 15)

plus Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Any Focus-based Power that User has successfully taken away from opponent (15 Active Points); Linked (Telekinesis; -1/2) (Real Cost: 10)

 

I'm curious to hear others' opinions. Is this legal by the letter of the rules? Too Munchkiny? Is it something you'd allow in your game?

[Hyper-Man]

I think that would require a Naked instance of the Usable by Other Advantage to take a Variable Effect Advantage and the Usable as Attack Advantage.

[Killer Shrike]

It depends on how the Foci is defined...if its a Personal focus then it obviously wont work because the Focus doesn't contain the actual power, the character does and just needs the Focus as a crutch.

 

If the Foci is not Accessible then it wont work if the target is actually using the Focus. Even if it is Accessible you would still have to Disarm the target of it if they were using it, and even if they aren't you still take the OCV penalty for targeting a Foci.

 

You would also run into SFX issues from time to time...just because something LOOKs like it might be a Foci doesn't mean it is...it might be SFX, or represented by some other construct like a 1 Recoverable Charge set up or Physical Manifestation or Only In Hero ID or even just Restrainable.

 

 

But for any sort of "Real Weapon" or Universal Foci or (5e) Independent item, as TK is just STR with Range you can use it to Disarm a target of their weapon and use it against them as an attack. You could also convince the GM to allow you to buy Martial Maneuvers for your TK and use the Takeaway maneuver and some other 5 point Maneuver (to meet the minimum)...like maybe a custom Bind maneuver.

 

This sort of ability would work best in a campaign that allowed Powers but also used Equipment, as obviously it would work on practically anything defined as off the shelf gear. In a supers campaign without Equipment...it often wont work due to underlying mechanics which will strain the separation between mechanics and sfx.

[Christopher]

When you can disarm someone, you can use that weapon against the person*. This is not a problem in Heroic games, where most gear isn't bought with points anyway.

 

In Superheroic, things get muddier: You are not supposed to use what you have not paid for. While you can ocassionaly lend someone your weapon, disarm someone and nobody looks odd at superman picking up a Kryptonite gun to fight his evil clone, this isn't supposed to happen regulary.

 

*Asuming it is not personal/you meet the requirements/you can steal it and it still has charges.

 

So if you want it to happen regulary (especially as the shtick of the character) in superheroics, it should be properly paid for. The best way to "pay" for it is afaik to modify a "Mimic VPP" so it is limited by "only non-personal Focus powers" and "Focus must be aquired". Two problems (and possible solutions):

1. The Roll and Action to change the VPP selection in Combat. Buying it Zero Phase action and No Roll is prohibitively expensive. Just asume the character has to "ready" the weapon first. Maybe he has to figure out where the trigger is or that there are additional buttons to be pressed (deadman switches, a simple safety system). Maybe the safety was enable while disarming and now it is "jammed" until the Roll succeds.

 

2. Multisetting guns build as Multipower. With the classical mimic pool, you can chalk it up to the "Mimic is not as adept at using the power as original Character" issue, it is well documented in the source material. In your case, again it might be that the Character has to figure out how to switch the firemodes. This might have been made intentionally inobvious/unintiitive to confuse people who steal the weapon.

 

You are dealing mostly with weapons and gear built by superhumans, not a run of the mill AK-47 or Mauser Pistol. Practically every gear is different (custom built even; sometimes not working on the same science field) and you can bet that if you figured out how to use it once the owner will change how it works before your next fight.

[Oruncrest]

o

It depends on how the Foci is defined...if its a Personal focus then it obviously wont work because the Focus doesn't contain the actual power' date=' the character does and just needs the Focus as a crutch.[/quote']

 

That's not how it's written in the HSR.

 

A Personal Focus is one which only the character can use — if someone else Grabs it, it’s useless to that person (though the GM can make exceptions to this rule). Some examples of this include magic items “keyed†to the character or technological items that enhance the character’s unique physiology (and thus wouldn’t affect anyone else).

 

Neither of the examples in the paragraph imply that the character has the power and that the focus is a crutch. The only thing that you can take away from the above is that only the character who 'bought' the focus can use it, and that's what the second part of Bigdamhero's power build is for.

 

And about that part... Sorry BDH, but it doesn't work as written.

 

The Grantor has to have UBO to grant the power to the Recipient, that's how Usable by Others works. The Recipient can't claim that the Grantor granted her the power simply because the Recipient has UBO. The 'Recipient' has to grant the UBO power to the victim for the 'Grantor' to grant the power to the Recipient.

 

Can it be done in HERO? Yes. Yes, it can. Read on and smell the Limburger.

 

0 Here You Go: Naked Advantage: Usable by One Other for up t0 60 points of Focus-Derived powers; Recipient controls power, Recipient pays END, can only grant to others, Standard Range, Trigger: Upon recieving this power, 0 END; RP:60

Notes: Focus-thief doesn't have this power, but it's written up seperately to show its effect on the victim. the cost of this 'power' is included in...

 

150 Gimme Your Focus: Naked Advantage: Usable as Attack for up to 60 points of Here You Go; can only grant power, Standard Range,

 

Note that with this, not only do you no longer need TK for grabbing, but you can also target inaccessible foci. Of course, it costs like mad, but it does exactly what you want, and that's what you asked for, right?

[Killer Shrike]

 

That's not how it's written in the HSR.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike View Post

It depends on how the Foci is defined...if its a Personal focus then it obviously wont work because the Focus doesn't contain the actual power, the character does and just needs the Focus as a crutch.

That's not how it's written in the HSR.

 

Originally posted by The HERO System Rulebook, 6th ed, pg 382

A Personal Focus is one which only the character can use if someone else Grabs it, its useless to that person (though the GM can make exceptions to this rule). Some examples of this include magic items keyed to the character or technological items that enhance the characters unique physiology (and thus wouldnt affect anyone else).

 

 

 

 

Neither of the examples in the paragraph imply that the character has the power and that the focus is a crutch. The only thing that you can take away from the above is that only the character who 'bought' the focus can use it, and that's what the second part of Bigdamhero's power build is for.

 

I wasn't looking at the book at the time, but rather going off of memory and past usage. The essence of why it wont work is that the non-Universal Focus does not actually contain the Power, its necessary for activation and usage of the Power and only by the character who has the Power. I call that a crutch; you can call it whatever you like.

 

To avoid your ire, I'll try to be more specific in the future and only answer questions with a copy of the rules pdf handy to copy and paste out of.

 

And, no, the second part of BDH's power build does not actually address that point. Details below.

 

 

And about that part... Sorry BDH, but it doesn't work as written.

 

The Grantor has to have UBO to grant the power to the Recipient, that's how Usable by Others works. The Recipient can't claim that the Grantor granted her the power simply because the Recipient has UBO. The 'Recipient' has to grant the UBO power to the victim for the 'Grantor' to grant the power to the Recipient.

 

Can it be done in HERO? Yes. Yes, it can. Read on and smell the Limburger.

 

0 Here You Go: Naked Advantage: Usable by One Other for up t0 60 points of Focus-Derived powers; Recipient controls power, Recipient pays END, can only grant to others, Standard Range, Trigger: Upon recieving this power, 0 END; RP:60

Notes: Focus-thief doesn't have this power, but it's written up separately to show its effect on the victim. the cost of this 'power' is included in...

 

150 Gimme Your Focus: Naked Advantage: Usable as Attack for up to 60 points of Here You Go; can only grant power, Standard Range,

 

Note that with this, not only do you no longer need TK for grabbing, but you can also target inaccessible foci. Of course, it costs like mad, but it does exactly what you want, and that's what you asked for, right?

 

 

A GM could choose to allow that of course, but I don't think the rules support that interpretation.

 

 

Since you only copy and pasted some of the rules for Personal Foci, here's the full paragraph:

 

6e1 380

A Personal Focus is one which only the

character can use if someone else Grabs it, its

useless to that person (though the GM can make

exceptions to this rule). Some examples of this

include magic items keyed to the character or

technological items that enhance the characters

unique physiology (and thus wouldnt affect

anyone else). The advantage of a Personal Focus

is that a villain cant take it and use it against the

character; the Complication is that it cant be

loaned to a friend.

 

That's a pretty straightforward statement. A Power with a Personal Focus cannot be used against the character, and it can't be "loaned" i.e. used by others.

 

But, even if a GM were to allow this, it doesn't address the fact that just because something LOOKS like it might be a Focus doesn't mean that it is actually modeled that way. I.e. a targets "gun" may not be a Focus at all.

[Greywind]

A Personal Focus can be taken. It cannot be used by anyone else. The do-hickey can be the source of the power, but if taken, nobody has access to that particular power. My thought on this is such: in the first Blade movie his sword would destroy the hand of anyone holding it that didn't know how to stop that from happening. In the movie it is safe to assume Blade, Whistler, and as revealed, Deacon Frost knew how to stop that. Technically I'd make his sword a Personal Focus.

[Lucius]

Oruncrest, I salute you. I can sincerely respect a mind capable of coming up with this.

 

Can it be done in HERO? Yes. Yes, it can. Read on and smell the Limburger.

 

0 Here You Go: Naked Advantage: Usable by One Other for up t0 60 points of Focus-Derived powers; Recipient controls power, Recipient pays END, can only grant to others, Standard Range, Trigger: Upon recieving this power, 0 END; RP:60

Notes: Focus-thief doesn't have this power, but it's written up seperately to show its effect on the victim. the cost of this 'power' is included in...

 

150 Gimme Your Focus: Naked Advantage: Usable as Attack for up to 60 points of Here You Go; can only grant power, Standard Range,

 

Note that with this, not only do you no longer need TK for grabbing, but you can also target inaccessible foci. Of course, it costs like mad, but it does exactly what you want, and that's what you asked for, right?

 

It is my great honor, on behalf of the Badman School of the Munchkin Institute of Oz, to present Oruncrest with this honorary degree in Hero System Munchkinry.

 

Seriously, I had thought of this construct long ago and never posted it because I thought it was too much munchkin weirdness even for me. (I probably "sincerely respect a mind capable of coming up with this" because that would include my own mind.) It's still probably prohibitively expensive, but it does do the job without breaking any rules and with a little change in wording it even gets around the issue of items that are not really a Focus,

 

 

My big problem is with the SFX of the concept itself, regardless of how it's built. If something is a personal Focus, if ordinarily someone else grabbing it can't use it, why does this character get do so, and get to do so regardless of the SFX of the focus in question?

 

But if you want to use someone else's personal Focus, Oruncrest's build is as far as I see the by the book way to do it. If you want to use someone's universal Focus, you don't need to do anything but Grab it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is cosmic but not universal

[Oruncrest]

I wasn't looking at the book at the time, but rather going off of memory and past usage. The essence of why it wont work is that the non-Universal Focus does not actually contain the Power, its necessary for activation and usage of the Power and only by the character who has the Power. I call that a crutch; you can call it whatever you like.

 

But the only reason you're calling it a crutch is because of your past usage, but there's more than one way to interpret a personal focus; it could be 'keyed' to one particular individual, like a hi-tech gun with a palmprint scanner in the grip. It could be like Mjolnir, which is enchanted to enable Thor to fly, control the weather, travel from Earth to Asgard, and various other things, but 'only the worthy can lift'. In short a non-universal focus can (not always, but can) actually contain the power that the wielder uses, and that's why I copy/pasted the rules.

 

To avoid your ire, I'll try to be more specific in the future and only answer questions with a copy of the rules pdf handy to copy and paste out of.

 

Since you only copy and pasted some of the rules for Personal Foci, here's the full paragraph:

 

6e1 380

A Personal Focus is one which only the

character can use if someone else Grabs it, its

useless to that person (though the GM can make

exceptions to this rule). Some examples of this

include magic items keyed to the character or

technological items that enhance the characters

unique physiology (and thus wouldnt affect

anyone else). The advantage of a Personal Focus

is that a villain cant take it and use it against the

character; the Complication is that it cant be

loaned to a friend.

 

That's a pretty straightforward statement. A Power with a Personal Focus cannot be used against the character, and it can't be "loaned" i.e. used by others.

 

However, the RAW doesn't explain how the UBO rules interact with the 'personal' focus rules (I suspect that it's because nobody ever expected it to come up), and that's the loophole that's being exploited here: UBO makes a power, even a power in a personal focus, 'loanable'. Worse, the writeup of 'Here You Go' is set up so that the victim has to 'loan' it to the thief, and can't use it again until the thief either gives it back or falls unconscious.

 

But' date=' even if a GM were to allow this, it doesn't address the fact that just because something LOOKS like it might be a Focus doesn't mean that it is actually modeled that way. I.e. a targets "gun" may not be a Focus at all.[/quote']

 

Bigdamnhero specifically said 'focus', as in the game-mechanic, not 'equipment' or 'gadget'. If he meant the latter two, all he'd have to do is change one word in 'Here You Go'.

 

[Hyper-Man]

Personal Focus can also refer to something like Harry Potter's Wand. Another "Wizard" could use it but it wouldn't grant any magical abilities to a "Muggle" who grabbed it.

 

As to Thor's hammer. I've built it with Restrainable instead of Focus to represent it's unique nature.

[Greywind]

In the HP-verse, even a wand that is loaned can't be used to full effect. Only if the secondary user defeats the master of the wand can it be used fully.

[Killer Shrike]

 

But the only reason you're calling it a crutch is because of your past usage, but there's more than one way to interpret a personal focus; it could be 'keyed' to one particular individual, like a hi-tech gun with a palmprint scanner in the grip.

 

You can argue about the semantics of my off the cuff remarks if you feel it needful, but its not an invalid usage of the term and it summarizes how I typically think of that kind of focus. The focus props them up and they need it to function, but unlike a universal focus which is usable by anyone, the personal focus is of value only to its owner.

 

CRUTCH (krÅ­ch) Noun

1. A staff or support used by the physically injured or disabled as an aid in walking, usually designed to fit under the armpit and often used in pairs.
   
2. A forked leg rest on a sidesaddle.
   
3. A device used for assistance or support; a prop: a mnemonic crutch.
   
4. The crotch of a person or an animal.
   
5. A forked device or part.
   

 

The "keyed" thing you seem keen on is still of the same category...the character needs the focus to do something they can't quite manage on their own, but no one else can use the focus.

 

 

It could be like Mjolnir, which is enchanted to enable Thor to fly, control the weather, travel from Earth to Asgard, and various other things, but 'only the worthy can lift'. In short a non-universal focus can (not always, but can) actually contain the power that the wielder uses, and that's why I copy/pasted the rules.

 

And you copied part of the rules, leaving off the next sentence which was less convenient for your argument which is either an oversight or intentional, but a) I re-C&P'd the full block for you and I don't think this argument is really about the semantic argument of whether the device contains the power or not. It's about whether it is legal to use nested NPA+UBO's to hijack a Personal Focus which explicitly prohibits an opponent or ally from using the Power the Focus is applied to.

 

And, also, as I mentioned just because it looks like a focus doesn't mean it actually is...the thunder god due to magic hammer that can only be used by one person pastiche was obliquely referred to as an example of a possible OIHID even back in 4e if memory serves.

 

 

You seem to want to shift the conversation into the idea that...hey...see...the Focus really DOES contain the Power conceptually / per that particular characters SFX...and thus its conceptually legitimate to take control of such a Focus and use it despite it being a Personal Focus which has direct language regarding both the Focused Power being used against the character or loaned out to allies for their use.

 

 

 

However, the RAW doesn't explain how the UBO rules interact with the 'personal' focus rules (I suspect that it's because nobody ever expected it to come up), and that's the loophole that's being exploited here: UBO makes a power, even a power in a personal focus, 'loanable'. Worse, the writeup of 'Here You Go' is set up so that the victim has to 'loan' it to the thief, and can't use it again until the thief either gives it back or falls unconscious.

 

I'm familiar with what UBO does. I do not think it applies here given the unambiguous language around a Personal Focus and, more interpretively, the "spirit" of the rule either. I do not think this is a loophole, I am not convinced by your assertion that this is legitimate.

 

 

Bigdamnhero specifically said 'focus', as in the game-mechanic, not 'equipment' or 'gadget'. If he meant the latter two, all he'd have to do is change one word in 'Here You Go'.

 

That he did. And that sort of metagame thinking vs reasoning from effect is at the root of a lot of munchkinny / problem power constructs in the HERO System...in my opinion. I was trying to advise BDH away from a problematic ability. You, I think it's fair to say, would prefer to instead encourage him towards a rather extreme solution that a) even you admitted is cheesy and even if it ultimately does prove to be legal is abusive and stop signed at best.

 

And as to "changing one word" in "Here You Go" to handwave the difference between the mechanic "Focus" and the general concept of "Equipment" of "Devices"...well that's another argument unto itself but one I have no interest in wasting my time with. Sure, if you think so, your games are yours to run as you see fit and good luck to you.

 

 

Bottom line, we can argue this round and round and get nowhere.

 

I posted a Ask Steve on the subject; hopefully he'll give a FAQ ruling on it. If you did find an actual loophole, then...well...congratulations I guess. You found a way to abuse the rules; go you. If it turns out to not be legal then at least the ambiguity will be cleared up.

 

Either way, good day to you sir and so long.

[Christopher]

Personal Focus is used in two cases:

1. The Focus is somehow "keyed" to a single user or a bunch of users. Judge Dreads or Robocops Gun. Magic Wands in Harry Potter*. The legendary sword wich can only be used by someone of "Pure Bllod" (still works as normal sword for everyone else).

 

2. The Focus has no power at all. It is only used to project a power the Character itself has in unusual ways.

"Living Battery" type heroes store Energy and can discharge them on touch. But to use them on range they need a special gauntlet or armblaster. The Weapon itself has not a single bit of power and is thus useless to everyone (except other batteries with a similar Power Special Effect), except as a blunt weapon (use improvised weapon or throwing objects rules).

In a way Tony Starks Iron Man works like this: All the Power comes from the Generator in his chest. Stealing the armor without the Chestpiece is pointless - it has no power to run on. (Granted that was ignored ocassionally. From what I gather the armors themself have enough power to move, fly and brawl - but the weapons only work with a Chestpiece).

 

Case 1 can be overcome with "normal" means.

 

Case 2 cannot. Unless you ahve some metamorph powers that allow you to mimik the "natural battery" aspect or the battery itself can be taken (tony starks heartpiece), you cannot use that thing.

 

 

*This one could also fall under "Focus of opportunity".

[Lucius]

Okay, granted that stacking a Naked Advantage on a Naked Advantage is cheesy, potentially abusive, and entails a four way intersection's worth of stop signs....

 

I'm familiar with what UBO does. I do not think it applies here given the unambiguous language around a Personal Focus and, more interpretively, the "spirit" of the rule either. I do not think this is a loophole, I am not convinced by your assertion that this is legitimate.

 

I think you're getting hung up on something that's not the real sticking point. If your objection involves what you call the unambiguous language around Personal Focus, you would have no problem using this kind of Power construct to steal any given Power that happens to NOT be a Personal Focus. I don't think you're okay with that nor do I think you should be okay with that. If you are okay with it, feel free to correct me, I'm often wrong.

 

Also, by your argument - the restrictions on Personal Focus trump the use of the Advantage Usable on Other - there could never be a Usable on Other Power in a Personal Focus. So I could use my magic wand to cast Flight or Invisibility on myself, but never to benefit my comrades. Now, maybe it is your position that I should be able to cast Mass Flight with a Universal Focus wand but never with a Personal Focus wand, but I suspect it's not. If that is your position, feel free to correct me, I'm often wrong.

 

As to the question of "legitimacy" I think we all know there's a difference between what you CAN do under the rules and what you SHOULD. As far as I know, there is no rule against using a Naked Advantage on a Naked Advantage. Even if there were - there's no reason the second Advantage has to stay Naked. I know it IS book legal to put an Advantage on a Naked Advantage.

 

I admit it can still be obscene without being naked.

 

edit: I think the problems with the Usable by Other + Usable as Attack construct are twofold

 

1. Potentially abusive. (maybe even if it's limited to 1 a day)

 

2. Just doesn't make sense. WHY would this character have the ability to use a Focus that otherwise can only be used by its owner?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usable by Palindromedary

 

 

[Lucius]

I don't know how I overlooked this....

 

I think that would require a Naked instance of the Usable by Other Advantage to take a Variable Effect Advantage and the Usable as Attack Advantage.

 

It is also my pleasure to present Hyper-Man with this honorary degree from the Badman School.

 

I actually HAVE come up with something similar to this and posted it, but that did NOT involve Usable as Attack. It was a Usable by Other Naked Advantage with the Usable by Other Advantage on it. It enabled the character to give someone else the ability to share power with the character. Asking, not taking.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks where I got authority to represent the Munchkin Institute

 

 

 

 

[Lucius]

I notice our original posted hasn't said anything since the first post. Let me get back squarely on topic.

 

I wanted to build a power for a villain PC in a low-powered Supers game where the character can steal her opponent's Focus and use it against them. (It's part of a Multipower limited to 1 Charge per slot per Day, so it's not something she can do over and over again.) The take-away part is a straight forward Telekinetic Grab. For the "use it against them" part...that type of imitation power is usually built as some kind of VPP. But since there's a Focus involved, it occurred to me you might be able to do it with Useable By Other as a Naked Modifier applied to the target's (Stolen) Focus, essentially turning it into a Universal Focus temporarily.

 

Something Borrowed: (Total: 45 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost)

Telekinesis (20 STR) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Disarm/Grab Weapons/Foci (-1) (Real Cost: 15)

plus Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Any Focus-based Power that User has successfully taken away from opponent (15 Active Points); Linked (Telekinesis; -1/2) (Real Cost: 10)

 

I'm curious to hear others' opinions. Is this legal by the letter of the rules? Too Munchkiny? Is it something you'd allow in your game?

 

I bet you didn't know you were opening a can of worms.

 

To address only what you actually said: Usable by Other is not necessary for a Universal Focus, probably not sufficient for a Personal Focus, and definitely not sufficient for something not defined as a Focus.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says disemboweling the Emperor of Dragons would be opening a Khan of Wyrms

[bigdamnhero]

I notice our original posted hasn't said anything since the first post.

My apologies. I didn't mean to start an argument and then disappear, but Life got away from me for a couple days. (Happens a lot; main reason I don't post much anymore - sorry.)

 

Usable by Other is not necessary for a Universal Focus' date=' probably not sufficient for a Personal Focus, and definitely not sufficient for something not defined as a Focus.[/quote']

Thanks. I knew that for Universal (& Accessible) Focus and Not-A-Focus. For the Personal Focus...yeah, that's what I suspected, and why I asked the question. Actually, a better way to ask the question might be: is it possible to turn someone's Personal Focus (temporarily) into a Universal Focus? OK, anything is possible in Hero; it's a matter of how, and how expensive should it be.

 

I think that would require a Naked instance of the Usable by Other Advantage to take a Variable Effect Advantage and the Usable as Attack Advantage.

That makes sense. For "borrowing" a 60 AP Power, making it UAA instead of UBO pushes the AP cost to 75, and adding Variable Effect brings it to 112. High, but not unreasonable for what we're talking about.

 

if its a Personal focus then it obviously wont work because the Focus doesn't contain the actual power' date=' the character does and just needs the Focus as a crutch.[/quote']

I think that's an sfx thing. Harry Dresden's blasting rod is a perfect example of what you describe: the magic is in Harry and the rod just helps him channel it. OTOH, Foxbat's Ping Pong Ball Gun is basically just a gun: the ping pongs don't actually come inside from Foxbat. (At least, I hope not - shudder!) They're both built as Personal Foci, because normally they don't work for anyone else, so the distinction is invisible. In this case, the effect I'm looking for would work on the latter, but not on the former. Hmm...maybe it only works on Foci that use Charges, rather than the target's END?

 

The best way to "pay" for it is afaik to modify a "Mimic VPP"

[nod] That's how I would usually do it. But since I wanted to make this a slot in a Multipower, I started playing around with other ideas.

 

You are dealing mostly with weapons and gear built by superhumans' date=' not a run of the mill AK-47 or Mauser Pistol.[/quote']

Exactly. What I'm looking for here is "Aha! I figured out how your fancy-schmancy death ray works!" I'd probably throw Requires an Analyze Tech Roll or something on there.

 

Can it be done in HERO? Yes. Yes, it can. Read on and smell the Limburger.

...

150 Gimme Your Focus: Naked Advantage: Usable as Attack for up to 60 points of Here You Go; can only grant power, Standard Range,

Oh I agree it's, to borrow Lucius' phrase, a four way intersection's worth of stop signs! Hence the "How broken is this?" tag.

 

Adding Standard/Limited Range definitely makes sense. Not sure about Can Only Grant Power personally; I'd rather force the character to Disarm it, which means the original owner can always take it back. And I definitely don't see it working against Inaccessible Foci. (Unless they could somehow remove it out of combat...maybe...story permitting...) YMMV of course.

 

So UAA with Limited Range and Variable Effect pushes the cost up to 135. Way too big for the MP I had in mind, and probably cost-prohibitive no matter how many Limitations you pile on. But an interesting (to me) "thought experiment."

 

My big problem is with the SFX of the concept itself' date=' regardless of how it's built. If something is a personal Focus, if ordinarily someone else grabbing it can't use it, why does this character get do so, and get to do so regardless of the SFX of the focus in question?[/quote']

Because...superpowers? The idea was that the character has the ability to figure out how other people's gadgets work and use them. If it was the character's main schtick, I'd just copy Eclipse's mimic powers and add Only Works On Item-Based Powers. But I was trying to make it a once-in-awhile back-up thing. I agree it would be heavily sfx-dependant.

 

I posted a Ask Steve on the subject

Thanks KS. I was more interested in the "Would you allow this?" discussion rather than fishing for a loophole, but I'll be curious to see what Steve thinks.

[bigdamnhero]

Actually on second thought: is buying Standard/Limited Range on the UAA really necessary, since the character has to first takeaway the target's Focus? In other words, you've already paid* for Range on the takeaway, and then the Focus only works when it's in the character's hands.

 

* In this case, range is included in the cost of TK.

[Lucius]

Another possibility: Transform, Personal Focus into (temporarily) Universal Focus

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Transform: tagline into tagline with palindromedary

[Christopher]

[nod] That's how I would usually do it. But since I wanted to make this a slot in a Multipower' date=' I started playing around with other ideas.[/quote']

The question is how big, powerfull and relevant that ability is.

If that is his way of fighting it is very relevant. Immensely even. Even after having paid for it, it might be potentially unbalancing.

 

The low end on relevance is "it happens sometimes". Nobody has to pay points for that, it is jsut not regulary enough to warrant a price.

 

The highest end is the modified Mimic VPP.

 

If it is a middle ground thing, just define Weapon Familaritiy Groups. A Character is Familiar with all the "Weapons" he paid points for (and very similar ones). So Tony Stark automatically has Weapon Familarity with his repuslors, without having to write it down.

The GM can decide that others can use your non-personal Weapon, but then suffers the -3 OCV for lacking Familiarty penalty (unless they bought it).

 

Exactly. What I'm looking for here is "Aha! I figured out how your fancy-schmancy death ray works!" I'd probably throw Requires an Analyze Tech Roll or something on there.

Just define Analyze: Tech as the required roll to change the VPP in combat. Most often we user a "Power: [Name of my Powerset]" Skils for this, but that is not a requirement.

Afaik any 3-point-for-Full-Roll Skill is allowed, as long as all this throw/action for changing the VPP does, is changing the VPP.

 

About doing this to Personal Foci:

1. The Mimic VPP could just cover that. After all you do pay for the power, so you have a right to use it. We can asume the character has jsut the right metamorphic ability to power the weapon/the ability to fool the enchantments/security systems and the like.

 

2. Transform could also do it. We once used a transform to model a Speedsters "Dismantle a Power Armor while it is worn" power. If you can take a power away for good, you can limit that ability to "Until the focus is stolen back and re-equiped".

You are propably looking at taking a Limitation. If you can take a limitation away (or at least lower it's value enough), you could limit it to only change the Limitation. A Minor Transform might be enough, a Major would certainly be enough (it can remove a full -1). The problem is that there is no value for "Personal" as it "takes as much as it gives" - your enemies can't use it, but neither can your friends. If that means -1/4 and +1/4 or -1 and +1 is every mans guess.

 

3. APG I 142 has the optinal rule of "Temporarily removing limitations". (I call it Naked-Buyoff for short)

As example they have a mage with a Fireball that has tripple end (among other limitations)

Then they write up a power to remove that limitation (down to normal end), and put a Focus Limitation on that buyoff*.

Result: A Character that can cast a fireball with or without his staff, but doing it without costs 3 times endurance.

 

*the cost is [Fireball without 3x end] - [fireball with 3x end] = Active Points of the buyoff.

 

Again the problem is defining a value for making "personal" to "universal". You are effectively removing part of the limitation (the part where you cannot use it), while still retaining the other parts (the enemies allies still cannot use it). I could see it anywhere from -1/2 to -1.

Another problem is that this must affect a group of powers, not a specific power (as in the example). The Optional Rule doesn't cover that, but you can apply the logic behind "Group Naked Advantages".

[bigbywolfe]

A Personal Focus can be taken. It cannot be used by anyone else. The do-hickey can be the source of the power, but if taken, nobody has access to that particular power. My thought on this is such: in the first Blade movie his sword would destroy the hand of anyone holding it that didn't know how to stop that from happening. In the movie it is safe to assume Blade, Whistler, and as revealed, Deacon Frost knew how to stop that. Technically I'd make his sword a Personal Focus.

No. That makes it a universal Focus like any other sword that has a Triggered attack built into it in case it is stolen. Completely different.