The Dated Doc D

[Lord Liaden]

Hernan "Professor Muerte" Cortez was Albert Zerstoiten's protege, he canonically existed in the current official Champions Universe, and he was still alive and active at the time of Destroyer's "death." He was also a scientific genius, although probably not the equal of his mentor, but just as much a megalomaniac as DD. It would be very reasonable for Zerstoiten to make Cortez his heir, giving him access to his organization and devices, so that he could become a new Doctor Destroyer for a new era.

[drunkonduty]

Put me in the "I just don't like Destroyer" bunch. He's too powerful as a character and too one-dimensional. I would cheerfully have him as a footnote in CU history (OK, a big footnote) and have him die in Detroit. The old maniac, feeling death's bony hand on his shoulder, decides to go out in a nihilistic blaze of glory, taking an honour guard to Hell with him. But that's it.

 

For a Doom expy I'm happy to use Prof. Muerte. He's cheesy as hell but that's OK with me.

[SKJAM!]

I'd go with Doctor Destroyer having died in Detroit--but suddenly he's back!? And all the sensors indicate he's the real thing?

 

Eventually, our heroes will piece enough clues together to realize that yes, this is Dr. Destroyer...from the past. A year or two before Detroit, he finally made a time machine that would allow him to visit the future, gain the technology he would have invented in the meantime, then head back to the Twentieth Century to conquer it in a stable time loop.

 

Except that something (he's thinking sabotage by time-traveling heroes) went wrong with the device in transit. With the result that he's stuck in the here and now, with most of his minions and gadgets and bases seized over the last couple of decades. He's working hard to acquire the new supertechnology so he can be thirty years ahead again, and rebuilding his organization.

 

The question is, if the real Dr. Destroyer is here, who died in Detroit? Is he destined to go back and die--Dr. Destroyer will do anything (evil) necessary to prevent that outcome!

 

[Sketchpad]

My way to deal with it, mostly theoretical because I stopped using the CU, was to have him die in Detroit. I had considered my new Dr Destroyer a few ways, Military specialist sounded too close to Warlord for my tastes, a recycled Super-genius was a possibility, Sennucherub was too Mechanon, didn't like Shadow Destroyer, in the end I just went with what was left.

There was a civil war as the loyalists in his regime battled those who sought to fill the vacuum of power.

 

In the end Gigaton became "The Destroyer" the rest of the Superpowered Lieutenants either stuck with him or jumped ship and the organization dropped its dead weight, took the name: The Destroyers. They wanted to create a better society based on his mentor/master's plans but the new Destroyer lacked Zerstoiten's intellect and arrogance and saw some sociological flaws.

 

This would be somewhat like the end of the first Thunderbolts run by marvel, where Zemo decides to save the world from itself.

 

In a similar idea to what Enforcer said, what if someone took over the mantle of Doctor Destroyer that wasn't a protege? For example, what if during Detroit a hero, disillusioned with what's happened, snapped and took on the identity of the dead doctor? Maybe he hid the death and took over right from the get go, hiding his identity not only from the world in general, but the doctor's minions as well. What happened when a group of heroes finds that out?

Alternatively, what if Doc Destroyer took a page from the Ultra-Humanite? During Detroit, his minions found his broken body and transferred his brain into a new, more powerful subject. Maybe it was Gigaton or a captured hero. The end result is a new Destroyer for a new age.

[kahuna's bro]

not bad sketchpad

[Sketchpad]

not bad sketchpad

Thanks, KB.

[ayinde]

im going to put out the he is a clone card.. after his death his whole origination lost focus and disbanded but those who were most loyal to him had him cloned and enhanced with the dna of champions version of superman

[Lord Liaden]

im going to put out the he is a clone card.. after his death his whole origination lost focus and disbanded but those who were most loyal to him had him cloned and enhanced with the dna of champions version of superman

Oooh... Destroyer in a body cloned from Vanguard! That would be a frightening irony.

[whiteperegrine]

Does the venerable Doctor D need to be retired? I would say no. The idea being posed that his history with the Nazi's is no longer relevant to modern times. This is a false assumption in my opinion but if we assume that he is "dated" then who exactly would you have take his place? What backstory of a super villain would we use that conveys such a simple evilness on a grand scale? As mentioned earlier, Dr D wasn't really a Nazi himself and if the whole Nazi thing is the issue, then just downplay it or outright change his history to fit your needs. Most, if not all, comic universes have a few big badguys that defy time itself through various methods. These very villains really shouldn't be facing off directly with player characters in my mind given their power level is just about off the charts. Obviously, there are exception to that but on the whole I find it to be relatively true. Dr. D. is the quintessential badguy in the generic champions universe. Should he be retired? Naah, just come up with something that fits your needs for your particular game. Whether this be his suit slowing his age rate, he takes cryo power naps to slow his age, moves his consciousness to a robot or someone else assumes his name after he has died. It's in your hands as the GM to decide what the needs are for your campaign.

[Balabanto]

I choose a fate for villains based on what the players do. Let their actions affect those sorts of outcomes. They'll be happier. You will be too.

 

I actually ceased using Doctor Destroyer when I hit time with a hammer. There were too many problems with his reboots to make him a viable enemy. For one thing, under the new rules, if your player characters are built reasonably and fairly, he will kill them all by phase three.

 

I don't like villains that aren't meant to be fought. If a villain isn't meant to be fought, he doesn't need a character sheet. Part of the problem with villains like Doctor Destroyer is that they attempt to remove the necessity of knowing the rules from less experienced GMs. The other part is that more experienced GMs like me look at the new versions of Doctor Destroyer and Mechanon, and after five minutes of analysis, say "This guy would wipe the floor with any group in my gameworld, period. And he wouldn't break a sweat doing it." Now, keep in mind, I'm not talking about characters with 25 points of experience. I'm talking about characters with 200+.

 

The one thing I do miss about modern Champions is that people don't take the time to actually know the rules of the game. Knowing the combat rules and how to apply a character sheet to them is far more important to understanding the game than character design. This game requires a lot of presence of mind.

[TheQuestionMan]

I always believed that the Death of Doctor Destroyer storyline was mishandled. His Death would have created a Power Vacuum that could have carried many Superhero mimi-series.

 

IMOHO

 

QM

[Tech]

For my campaign, I don't bother using anything beyond the one from "The Island of Dr Destroyer" with a little rounding out of skills and what-not. I use the version from the Dr Destroyer book as an example of how not to make a villain to my friends. He's just long-lived with a touch of longevity so his age isn't a factor for me.

 

For myself, I don't see a problem here: you are the GM. You don't have the use the villain material as presented. Fashion Dr D (and any other villains) to be usable in your campaign.

 

Balabanto said: "I don't like villains that aren't meant to be fought. If a villain isn't meant to be fought, he doesn't need a character sheet. Part of the problem with villains like Doctor Destroyer is that they attempt to remove the necessity of knowing the rules from less experienced GMs. The other part is that more experienced GMs like me look at the new versions of Doctor Destroyer and Mechanon, and after five minutes of analysis, say "This guy would wipe the floor with any group in my gameworld, period. And he wouldn't break a sweat doing it." Now, keep in mind, I'm not talking about characters with 25 points of experience. I'm talking about characters with 200+."

Right on! What's the point of stats if he's too powerful to use (which goes into what I said just above about making a villain usable in your campaign).

[Sketchpad]

I choose a fate for villains based on what the players do. Let their actions affect those sorts of outcomes. They'll be happier. You will be too.

 

I think that's a given for any game. I realize for some it isn't, but it should be,

 

I actually ceased using Doctor Destroyer when I hit time with a hammer. There were too many problems with his reboots to make him a viable enemy. For one thing, under the new rules, if your player characters are built reasonably and fairly, he will kill them all by phase three.

 

I don't like villains that aren't meant to be fought. If a villain isn't meant to be fought, he doesn't need a character sheet. Part of the problem with villains like Doctor Destroyer is that they attempt to remove the necessity of knowing the rules from less experienced GMs. The other part is that more experienced GMs like me look at the new versions of Doctor Destroyer and Mechanon, and after five minutes of analysis, say "This guy would wipe the floor with any group in my gameworld, period. And he wouldn't break a sweat doing it." Now, keep in mind, I'm not talking about characters with 25 points of experience. I'm talking about characters with 200+.

 

Right on! What's the point of stats if he's too powerful to use (which goes into what I said just above about making a villain usable in your campaign).

 

The thing with Doctor Destroyer is that he isn't a "let's bash him in the face" sort of villain. I've always used him more as a Machiavellian bad guy in the same spirit as Doctor Doom and, to some extent, Darkseid. You foil his schemes, his henchmen and his ideas, but rarely do you face the man himself. That said, I did play in a game where I was hunted by Destroyer and had a throwdown with him (with help from my character's teammates). Between the six of us battling him (and being 400 points each), we managed to finally beat him using teamwork and tactics. This was back in the 4th ed Champions days, There are different kinds of battles that some supervillains represent, and I think Destroyer fits that to a tee. YMMV, of course, but this has always been my experience. I've always been a fan of the mastermind villain, with the esteemed Doctor ranking decently on my list.

 

The one thing I do miss about modern Champions is that people don't take the time to actually know the rules of the game. Knowing the combat rules and how to apply a character sheet to them is far more important to understanding the game than character design. This game requires a lot of presence of mind.

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree. I think knowing combat and how to use a character sheet with them are just as important as character design, but not more important. I've had a few instances that I had to reject a character based on their build, even though the design was solid (and visa versa). Having a solid idea of how to play your character in general is the most important skill a character can have IMHO.

 

[Tech]

Ah, but Sketchpad, you did eventually face him, and he did have stats which weren't too powerful for you in your campaign. I didn't say anything about meeting the Dr everyday or every month but sooner or later - when you do face him - you don't want to face a monster of stats your heroes have no chance of defeating. Indeed, he is a mastermind. I know some GM's have said he's always in the background behind the works, which is cool. However, for those campaigns where he does show up in battle, there's a different between a 500 pts version and over 3000 pts version.

[Sketchpad]

Ah' date=' but Sketchpad, you did eventually face him, and he did have stats which weren't too powerful for you in your campaign. I didn't say anything about meeting the Dr everyday or every month but sooner or later - when you do face him - you don't want to face a monster of stats your heroes have no chance of defeating. Indeed, he is a mastermind. I know some GM's have said he's always in the background behind the works, which is cool. However, for those campaigns where he does show up in battle, there's a different between a 500 pts version and over 3000 pts version.[/quote']

 

True. But I guess my point is, whether he's 500, 3000, or 50,000 points it's all in how you use him. I've used him as a villain in my 5th ed games where the players were only starting out at 350. Did they rush into battle with him? No. But then a 350 point character, IMHO, isn't a seasoned hero like we see in comic books. Destroyer is someone you build up to encountering, just like heroes do with the analogs from comics. It's all in how you run your games and how you use Destroyer. As I've said earlier in this thread, my Doctor Destroyer went through some big changes throughout the games I ran, but I kept the core concept there.

And to note, I do agree with you Tech when you state to fashion the character for your game. Stats in a book are there for quick reference or if you want to go with "official" stats. I always modded any character that I used in a game, even if it was a few points here and there. I just wish I kept all the notes.

[Lord Liaden]

Our sometime board-colleague Lord Mhoram once posted that he used the 5E Doc D, straight out of CKC, as the first major encounter for his new 5E campaign featuring a team of, IIRC, six very experienced heroes. According to Lord M, they killed him in less than one turn. There are campaigns that operate on this power level, for whom Dr. Destroyer as published is an appropriate opponent. If he's too powerful for your present campaign, subtract stats from him until he fits. Book Of The Destroyer offered full character sheets for earlier, less mighty incarnationations of DD. Or else use his vast organization -- agents, robots, lesser supers serving him -- for encounters until your heroes are experienced enough to take him on.

 

Nobody would deny that Thanos or Darkseid are ridiculously powerful, but in settings with the likes of Superman and Thor running around, they have their place.

 

[ayinde]

im going to put out the he is a clone card.. after his death his whole origination lost focus and disbanded but those who were most loyal to him had him cloned and enhanced with the dna of champions version of superman

So true but just think of story possibility