Why is it so slow in here?

[Spence]

If I may.  Perhaps, at first, a quick Adventure (to get our feet wet) that contains everything that the players need: Pregen PCs, Plot, NPCs, Monsters, etc.  Things would have to be explained a bit more in-depth than normal when it comes to how the system works, but not to the point that it would take the place of the Core System (We're not trying to replace Hero...just attract new players afterall). 

 

I know this is kind of counter-intuitive nowadays, but it would be a starting point.  It doesn't have to be long, indeed a somewhat short adventure that is focused and stays on target would probably be best (as much as adventures can do that with player's involved ). 

 

After that, move on to bigger projects, such as a Setting.

 

 

~ N

 

Oh, I am in total agreement.  I just don't bring up that kind of thing here anymore.  All of the systems I currently play do just that except Hero. 

 

But the last time I brought up the need of prepared adventures for at least introducing the game I discovered I had committed heresy and should immediately commit seppuku. 

[Nolgroth]

I think the tides of Hero opinion are shifting Spence. There will always be those who feel an adventure is not to their taste or whatever, but from this thread I am getting a distinct feeling that there is change in the air. I can only see that as a good thing.

[Spence]

I think the tides of Hero opinion are shifting Spence. There will always be those who feel an adventure is not to their taste or whatever, but from this thread I am getting a distinct feeling that there is change in the air. I can only see that as a good thing.

 

Change can be good.  And I really do think that there is an opportunity for HERO to make a break out. 

 

I just wish I could ID exactly what that break out needs.....

[Spence]

And I just noticed, my friends list didn't make it over from the old boards....

 

Drat!

[Nolgroth]

for the Newer Defilers I would put all of their magic in an End Reserve that has a fairly low recovery rate. Then give them Transfer Body to End in 5e and Drain linked to Healing? end in 6e that would allow the PC the choice of whether to kill plants or recharge normally. Perhaps even a extra recovery with a body drain side effect (or a small RKA) to turn personal health into End.

Newer Defilers? The last version of Dark Sun I bought was the updated version for AD&D 2nd Edition.  Did something change between editions?

[Nolgroth]

And I just noticed, my friends list didn't make it over from the old boards....

 

Drat!

Tricky. Thanks for adding me.

[BlueCloud2k2]

I am also willing to contribute to the project. I majored in creative writing in college.

 

Nadrakas and I have discussed writing an adventure scenario, but I think we need a core "bible" for the setting.

 

First things first, do we use classic races or do we do something new? I'd like to see something new, to be honest. Dwarves and Elves and the rest have gotten boring.

 

EDIT: I should note that most of my internet activity is Friday through Monday Nights. So if I don't respond Tuesday through Thursday, that is why.

[Nadrakas]

I am also willing to contribute to the project. I majored in creative writing in college.

 

Nadrakas and I have discussed writing an adventure scenario, but I think we need a core "bible" for the setting.

 

First things first, do we use classic races or do we do something new? I'd like to see something new, to be honest. Dwarves and Elves and the rest have gotten boring.

But...I like Dwarves.  I like Elves too...preferably cooked and roasted.

 

But in all seriousness, I can go either way on this.

 

 

~ N

[Spence]

I am also willing to contribute to the project. I majored in creative writing in college.

 

Nadrakas and I have discussed writing an adventure scenario, but I think we need a core "bible" for the setting.

 

First things first, do we use classic races or do we do something new? I'd like to see something new, to be honest. Dwarves and Elves and the rest have gotten boring.

 

EDIT: I should note that most of my internet activity is Friday through Monday Nights. So if I don't respond Tuesday through Thursday, that is why.

 

 

But...I like Dwarves.  I like Elves too...preferably cooked and roasted.

 

But in all seriousness, I can go either way on this.

 

 

~ N

 

Actually,  while they may be boring, they may just be what is needed.   This type of intro is designed to get players to try a Hero fantasy game.    And pretty much every one of the successful sword winging spell slinging  fantasy games have the core fantasy archetypes in them.    They are familiar and familiar is what people drift to.   I don’t know any fantasy type games that are popular that do not have them, and by popular I mean actually being played in FLGS today and being bought/ordered there.  Every one of the games that is not centered there seems to only be followed by niche gamers in ones and twos. 

 

This is what I would do:

 

Have character creation use templates.

 

Step One:  Pick Racial Template

Human

Dwarf

Elf

Halfling

 

Step Two:  Pick Profession Template  (I would tweak the names)

Warrior/Fighter

Thief/Rogue

Priest/Cleric

Mage/Magic User

 

Step Three:  Pick X Skills

Lists of pre-packaged skills

 

Step Four: Pick X Abilities.

A series of pre-built ‘abilities’ based on profession.

Magical types have fewer picks to offset spells.

 

Step Five: Magic, Pick X Spells

Lists of Spells split between mage and cleric

 

Step Six: Customize

The player spends a hand full of character points to tweak the PC.

While steps 3-6 will have pre-designed lists of equal value picks, the full skill list will be there for customization picks.

 

Step Seven:  Buy Equipment.

 

Include a pregen for each race/profession combo.

 

Include the rules of play, combat, movement, skill use etc. (ie Hero in Two pages expanded).

 

For the adventure, have a generic frontier fantasy village with small inn/tavern as a base.

Include a small adventure suitable for a party of 3-5 players.

 

THEN

 

In Part Two of the book insert the actual power build rules and how the HERO tool kit works.  Dissect  a sample of the templates/abilities/equipment (racial, profession, abilities, spell, sword, chain mail, etc) and show how they were created. 

 

Now they have an actual game they can play out of the box plus all the all the information they need to leave the reservation if they want to.  Of just tweak things without leaving.

[Nadrakas]

Actually,  while they may be boring, they may just be what is needed.   This type of intro is designed to get players to try a Hero fantasy game.    And pretty much every one of the successful sword winging spell slinging  fantasy games have the core fantasy archetypes in them.    They are familiar and familiar is what people drift to.   I don’t know any fantasy type games that are popular that do not have them, and by popular I mean actually being played in FLGS today and being bought/ordered there.  Every one of the games that is not centered there seems to only be followed by niche gamers in ones and twos. 

 

This is what I would do:

 

Have character creation use templates.

 

Step One:  Pick Racial Template

Human

Dwarf

Elf

Halfling

 

Step Two:  Pick Profession Template  (I would tweak the names)

Warrior/Fighter

Thief/Rogue

Priest/Cleric

Mage/Magic User

 

Step Three:  Pick X Skills

Lists of pre-packaged skills

 

Step Four: Pick X Abilities.

A series of pre-built ‘abilities’ based on profession.

Magical types have fewer picks to offset spells.

 

Step Five: Magic, Pick X Spells

Lists of Spells split between mage and cleric

 

Step Six: Customize

The player spends a hand full of character points to tweak the PC.

While steps 3-6 will have pre-designed lists of equal value picks, the full skill list will be there for customization picks.

 

Step Seven:  Buy Equipment.

 

Include a pregen for each race/profession combo.

 

Include the rules of play, combat, movement, skill use etc. (ie Hero in Two pages expanded).

 

For the adventure, have a generic frontier fantasy village with small inn/tavern as a base.

Include a small adventure suitable for a party of 3-5 players.

 

THEN

 

In Part Two of the book insert the actual power build rules and how the HERO tool kit works.  Dissect  a sample of the templates/abilities/equipment (racial, profession, abilities, spell, sword, chain mail, etc) and show how they were created. 

 

Now they have an actual game they can play out of the box plus all the all the information they need to leave the reservation if they want to.  Of just tweak things without leaving.

(Nod) Keep it familiar.  Keep it simple. Keep it on target.

 

What you posted is pretty much on target with what BlueCloud2k2 & I've discussed.

 

Peace.

 

 

~ N

[Lord Liaden]

Still waiting to hear back from Jason about licenses to use official Hero settings. I'll post here as soon as I do.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Spence - Reminds me of TSR's Red Box... basic set of rules with a half-dozen pre-generated characters and three adventures to get players interested in the game.
 
Maybe that's what we need to aim for.

 

Since others have more experience running a Fantasy Hero campaign than I do, about how many combat encounters do you typically have in a single session?

 

I'm thinking the intro adventure(s) need to be playable in a single session. I'm working on one that would be a 5-Room Dungeon with three to five encounters. And could easily have two follow-up adventures in the same general area that could be either linked or separate. Ideas?
 

[Kraven Kor]

In regards to new vs. same-old-same-old:

Both have an appeal.

 

My recommendation would be to make the setting unique, while having options to drop in your favorite races.

 

The "problem" with going unique is, well, unique is hard.  

 

I went for "unique" with my setting and ended up with half my players saying "Oh, so this is like Warhammer!" and the other half saying "Really?  Cat people?"  

 

And in regards to pre-gen characters:  This is becoming a much less popular option these days.  I would recommend any HERO Games modules have either a *plethora* of pre-gen characters to choose from, modeled after as many fantasy heroes as we can think of, or it instead have kind of "mix and match" options to do a quick-build character.  I would prefer the latter, myself.

[Nolgroth]

Kraven Kor: The mix 'n' match road sounds great in theory, but it is darn difficult.  I think Spence has the right of it with his methodology. There may be a few extra points to spend on some characters and not enough on others, but there is the option of having some suggestions for spending the extra points, based on the profession or role (face, brick, healer, etc.) of the character.

[Nadrakas]

Kraven Kor: The mix 'n' match road sounds great in theory, but it is darn difficult.  I think Spence has the right of it with his methodology. There may be a few extra points to spend on some characters and not enough on others, but there is the option of having some suggestions for spending the extra points, based on the profession or role (face, brick, healer, etc.) of the character.

 

When it comes to the Introduction Adventures, I'd suggest that instead of a dozen or two Pregens, that we offer a small selection of characters.  We could potentially give an option to customize them.  For example: with the "Fighter-type" there could be a Hand-to-Hand Package and a Bow-and-Arrow Package.  With the "Wizard Type" there could be a Combat Master Package and the Mind Bender Package.  Each would cost the same when compared to each other (HTH vs B&A; CM vs MB) so as to keep things balanced, and would allow for the player to have some choice without overwhelming them with the entirety of the Rules.

 

As for Adventures targeted to established players.  Not sure that Pregens would be needed.  If Pregens are provided...maybe more than a handful, but I wouldn't go hog-wild: No more than 8 or so.  Enough to give options for the players to pick from without slowing things down in the selection process.  I'd keep the "customization" process above.

 

 

~ N

[Lord Liaden]

If you want to include both introductory adventures and a mini-setting/home base for the players, I suggest putting the adventures in locations that fit within a reasonable distance from said home base. E.g. if the adventures take place in mountain caves, a forest, and a nobleman's castle on the sea coast, make sure all those environments make sense for a few days' travel from whatever town the PCs are starting from.

[Nadrakas]

If you want to include both introductory adventures and a mini-setting/home base for the players, I suggest putting the adventures in locations that fit within a reasonable distance from said home base. E.g. if the adventures take place in mountain caves, a forest, and a nobleman's castle on the sea coast, make sure all those environments make sense for a few days' travel from whatever town the PCs are starting from.

Sounds Reasonable.

 

Sort of like the "Against the Slave Lords" or "Against the Giants" series of adventures.

 

~ M

[Spence]

When it comes to the Introduction Adventures, I'd suggest that instead of a dozen or two Pregens, that we offer a small selection of characters.  We could potentially give an option to customize them.  For example: with the "Fighter-type" there could be a Hand-to-Hand Package and a Bow-and-Arrow Package.  With the "Wizard Type" there could be a Combat Master Package and the Mind Bender Package.  Each would cost the same when compared to each other (HTH vs B&A; CM vs MB) so as to keep things balanced, and would allow for the player to have some choice without overwhelming them with the entirety of the Rules.

 

As for Adventures targeted to established players.  Not sure that Pregens would be needed.  If Pregens are provided...maybe more than a handful, but I wouldn't go hog-wild: No more than 8 or so.  Enough to give options for the players to pick from without slowing things down in the selection process.  I'd keep the "customization" process above.

 

 

~ N

 

Remember that the pregens in this case are not actually deigned for the adventure, though they they certainly should be built so they could be used.  The reason to have a large number of pregens is to provide examples of how Fantasy Hero characters are built.  One of the hardest hurdles Hero faces is that character generation in Hero is completely different from any other game.   Instead of just selecting from a list of options, you actually have the underlying meta-rules and design your abilities whole clothe. 

 

The use of prebuilt lists of abilities is not there to completely replace Hero Tool-kiting, but instead to give them a way to ease into the system.   Given them a grouping of prebuilt abilities and a solid sampling of pregens designed to show what the final item looks like.  Then they can use those as examples to look back on as the digest Part 2.

.

 

With the "Wizard Type" there could be a Combat Master Package and the Mind Bender Package

 

 

Yes we could use 'packages' like that.  But one of the major issues I have faced when trying to get people into Hero is that they will want to understand how and what the package does before they buy one.   And the purpose here is to get them actually playing so that they will have enough experience with Hero to understand the explanation.

 

Yes have the packages available in the streamlined 'build a character' area, but have a pregenerated Combat Mage and a pregenerated Mind Bender Mage (Enchanter) built so they can see what one looks like and take it out for a spin. 

 

For the pregens I would include tips for play along the line of the write ups used in the Champions villain books,  skipping name and personal history of course. 

 

Having a mage for each race allows the example pregens to be made and display that even though they are mages, they can have very different styles and abilities. 

 

In the end, everything in the book should be designed to teach Hero and overcome the "oh my God! it's math" stigma.

[Nadrakas]

Remember that the pregens in this case are not actually deigned for the adventure, though they they certainly should be built so they could be used.  The reason to have a large number of pregens is to provide examples of how Fantasy Hero characters are built.  One of the hardest hurdles Hero faces is that character generation in Hero is completely different from any other game.   Instead of just selecting from a list of options, you actually have the underlying meta-rules and design your abilities whole clothe. 

 

The use of prebuilt lists of abilities is not there to completely replace Hero Tool-kiting, but instead to give them a way to ease into the system.   Given them a grouping of prebuilt abilities and a solid sampling of pregens designed to show what the final item looks like.  Then they can use those as examples to look back on as the digest Part 2.

.

 

Yes we could use 'packages' like that.  But one of the major issues I have faced when trying to get people into Hero is that they will want to understand how and what the package does before they buy one.   And the purpose here is to get them actually playing so that they will have enough experience with Hero to understand the explanation.

 

Yes have the packages available in the streamlined 'build a character' area, but have a pregenerated Combat Mage and a pregenerated Mind Bender Mage (Enchanter) built so they can see what one looks like and take it out for a spin. 

 

For the pregens I would include tips for play along the line of the write ups used in the Champions villain books,  skipping name and personal history of course. 

 

Having a mage for each race allows the example pregens to be made and display that even though they are mages, they can have very different styles and abilities. 

 

In the end, everything in the book should be designed to teach Hero and overcome the "oh my God! it's math" stigma.

Ok...

 

If a Adventure is put out for play, with pregenerated characters...and the pregenerated characters are not designed for and have nothing to do with the Adventure then why are the premade characters in the book in the first place?

 

Maybe we're talking about two different things here.

 

This is the way I understood it...maybe I'm wrong:

• Setting Book(s): Characters as you have described -- Step by Step, with simplified explanations & some tool-kitting (as has been discussed previously).

 

• Adventure(s): Pregen Characters, replete with everything ready to go so that minimal prep has to be accomplished on the players part. (Very basic explanations.  Toolkitting kept to a minimum).

 

Again, maybe I'm wrong here...

 

 

~ M

[Spence]

Sounds Reasonable.

 

Sort of like the "Against the Slave Lords" or "Against the Giants" series of adventures.

 

~ M

 

My first RPG game was first incarnation D&D way back when.

 

The location was at a caravan station "on the frontier"  at a "crossroads" next to the "Great Wood".   When we asked for more setting information the DM told us it was "like Erroll Flynns's Robin Hood". 

 

The station consisted of an Inn w/Tavern, barns and corrals and the homes of the villagers supporting the inn.   In addition to the Inn Keep there was a Sargent and 4 Men-at-Arms that were there to represent the Lord and Law. 

 

Our party (A human Fighter, an Elf (it was a class back then), a Halfling (also a class) and a human Cleric and a human wizard) were in the Inn when it was attacked by {cue dramatic music} Zombies!!!  Which our 1st level hero's barely beat off.   

 

It was a grueling 4 sessions before our intrepid hero's managed to discover and then track down the evil priest that was summoning zombies and skeletons for revenge against the Village and Inn.    An very simple adventure, but but very fun and it made us play our PC's. 

 

The adventure doesn't need to be complicated, nor does the world intro need to be super detailed.   Most people don;t want too much detail and a detail light scenario can be dropped in any campaign.

[Spence]

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"

 

Arrrggghhhh! 

 

So this followed us over too

[Spence]

Ok...

 

If a Adventure is put out for play, with pregenerated characters...and the pregenerated characters are not designed for and have nothing to do with the Adventure then why are the premade characters in the book in the first place?

 

Maybe we're talking about two different things here.

 

This is the way I understood it...maybe I'm wrong:

• Setting Book(s): Characters as you have described -- Step by Step, with simplified explanations & some tool-kitting (as has been discussed previously).

 

• Adventure(s): Pregen Characters, replete with everything ready to go so that minimal prep has to be accomplished on the players part. (Very basic explanations.  Toolkitting kept to a minimum).

 

Again, maybe I'm wrong here...

 

 

~ M

 

 

I think we are on different wave lengths

 

I am talking about a Fantasy complete book that has:

 

Part One

1) Simplified Character Generation

2) A batch of pregens using the simplified Character Generation

3) Simplified rules to play

4) simplified GM section with pregenerated Monsters and Treasure

5) an included adventure making use of 1-4.

Part Two

1) How Hero's toolkitting works

2) Hero creation rules

3) an under the hood breakdown of items from Part One.

 

All as a complete package written to be internally consistent with all the Part One sections designed to give a wide spread of examples.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Spence

[Nadrakas]

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"

 

Arrrggghhhh! 

 

So this followed us over too

Yep..."Sigh"

 

~ M

[Nadrakas]

Ok...

 

If a Adventure is put out for play, with pregenerated characters...and the pregenerated characters are not designed for and have nothing to do with the Adventure then why are the premade characters in the book in the first place?

 

Maybe we're talking about two different things here.

 

This is the way I understood it...maybe I'm wrong:

• Setting Book(s): Characters as you have described -- Step by Step, with simplified explanations & some tool-kitting (as has been discussed previously).

 

• Adventure(s): Pregen Characters, replete with everything ready to go so that minimal prep has to be accomplished on the players part. (Very basic explanations.  Toolkitting kept to a minimum).

 

Again, maybe I'm wrong here...

 

 

~ M

"Keep on the Border Land" -- Classic

 

On the others ("Against the Slave Lords" or "Against the Giants") there are Pregens and they (for the most part) take place in the same place (for the most part...).

 

~ N

 

(Ok...in "Against the Giants" you go into a Wooden Keep, then Underground, then into a Fiery place, then eventually to a Cloud Castle...then eventually you fight Drow...but that's all ok...not necessarily the "same"...but still fun!!!)

[Spence]

Also,  having a large number of pregens gives the new GM a ready to hand selection of PC's for 'drop in players'.  That was a powerful tool that WotC exploited heavily with Encounters.