Why is it so slow in here?

[Lucius]

And for what it's worth:

 

I'm preparing, starting in late January, to introduce a group of about five players to the Hero system. All have experience with other systems, one has read some Hero books, otherwise they are new to the system.

 

I will be using Turakian Age updated to 6th edition. I will be using the system I have described of putting all magic on an END Reserve and using that for the Skill Roll.

 

I also already have a group of 3 who I have introduced to Hero and they have been playing on an irregular basis for the last couple of years now (basically, whenever we can all four manage to get together for long enough.)One of these is at least trying to design his own characters now, and might be a participant alongside the new group. Another is very enthusiastic, probably because she likes her Half Elf Ulronai character so much, and is always asking when we can play again.

 

I'm hoping I can reproduce at least that level of success, if not get one or more of them enthused enough to consider actually running a game so I can get to play Hero again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not completely certain Jason Walters has it right in Steve Long having joint rights to both Turakian and Valdorian. Steve did write TA, but VA was penned by Allen Thomas. Allen's not involved with Hero any more, unlike Steve who's still an owner. Checking with Steve would clear that up easily enough.

 

Hero Games also has two other "official" fantasy settings, Atlantean Age and Tuala Morn. All four are part of the Hero Universe timeline, with survivors from each of them playing a role in the present-day Champions setting. TA is for D&D-esque high fantasy; VA is for sword-and-sorcery a la Howard and Leiber; AA is classical-mythic-style super-high fantasy, with demigods and epic magic; while TM is Celtic-myth-inspired fantasy. One could always ask about the feasability of further developing any one of them.

 

For my part, I'm not convinced the joint ownership of any of these settings would necessarily make them more difficult to use. By the terms of the Hero Games license, any manuscript using HERO System has to be submitted to Hero management for approval anyway. If Steve has joint ownership, when a manuscript is ready you simultaneously send a copy to Jason and to Steve, and when they send them back you incorporate any notes they give. I say again, Steve is really pretty easy going over the handling of material he doesn't want to develop himself.

[Tasha]

Also it sounds like if we stay out of his backyard (ie the part of TA that he wants to further develop himself) we should be ok. Also a starting adventure should be able to be written in such a way that completing it doesn't really impact the game world.

 

Perhaps we should look toward the campaign from the pre 5e Fantasy Hero. Western Shores seems to be a pretty generic Fantasy Campaign. It might be safer writing stuff for it. I am not sure that TA is the right campaign for a D&D feeling adventure world.

[bigbywolfe]

Does anyone else remember this same conversation happening a year or two ago? There was a big plan to make free intro adventures with premade characters and everything. Exactly one got made by an individual working alone (and it was decent) and then know one spoke of the project ever again.

 

Not trying to be a downer, but I think we should try to keep things in perspective. Every couple of years sone variation of this conversation seems to take place. At some point I think someone needs to take chaegw and just actually begin it.

[Lord Liaden]

Also it sounds like if we stay out of his backyard (ie the part of TA that he wants to further develop himself) we should be ok. Also a starting adventure should be able to be written in such a way that completing it doesn't really impact the game world.

 

Perhaps we should look toward the campaign from the pre 5e Fantasy Hero. Western Shores seems to be a pretty generic Fantasy Campaign. It might be safer writing stuff for it. I am not sure that TA is the right campaign for a D&D feeling adventure world.

 

The Western Shores, from the 4E Fantasy Hero campaign book, is indeed generic D&Dish, with most of the usual suspects and familiar tropes. It's simple enough to grasp quickly, but with enough diversity and plots built in to run quite a few adventures in it. As far as long-term use goes, the part of the setting provided details only the western edge of a continent, with almost nothing revealed about the rest of the world. So it would be pretty wide open for development if and when the potential of what's given is exceeded.

 

I wonder if Hero Games still holds the rights to it?

[Lord Liaden]

Does anyone else remember this same conversation happening a year or two ago? There was a big plan to make free intro adventures with premade characters and everything. Exactly one got made by an individual working alone (and it was decent) and then know one spoke of the project ever again.

 

Not trying to be a downer, but I think we should try to keep things in perspective. Every couple of years sone variation of this conversation seems to take place. At some point I think someone needs to take chaegw and just actually begin it.

 

I didn't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm, but I had the same misgivings about this enterprise. IME projects like this only get off the ground if one person takes charge, has a vision and follows through on it, delegates responsibility and pushes people when necessary, and so on. No offense intended, but books written by committee generally look like they were written by committee.

[dmjalund]

how about variable limitation, where RSR is always one option

[NuSoardGraphite]

I didn't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm, but I had the same misgivings about this enterprise. IME projects like this only get off the ground if one person takes charge, has a vision and follows through on it, delegates responsibility and pushes people when necessary, and so on. No offense intended, but books written by committee generally look like they were written by committee.

This was my thought as well.

 

As a large collective, a consensus will never be reached.  As mentioned previously, there are far too many ways of doing things in Hero that are all legit for people to come to an agreement.  What will happen is that people will fall into camps of like-minded individuals who agree with each others interpretations of the system.  I think at this juncture, it would probably be far more productive to form into several small groups of individuals who can work together to produce content.  This will do several things:

 

1: Supplements will be more cohesive being guided only by one or two individuals in agreement on the flavor of the supplement, with contributions from perhaps a few others.

 

2: More supplements/modules can be made in a shorter amount of time with multiple groups working on different projects.

 

3: Individuals have preferences for different genres and power levels.  This allows each group to play to their strengths better.  One group can work on Turakian Age material, while another could work on Atlantean Age material.  This has the advantage that there is material that is attractive to the D&D crowd (TA) and material that is attractive to the Exalted crowd (AA).

 

4: It could show that the Hero System is active and prolific in releasing usable material for their various campaigns, which is generally a huge reason why roleplayers gravitate toward specific games to begin with (how easy it is to find players and how much material can be found for the system to help facilitate gameplay)

 

Just some thoughts.

[Nolgroth]

Maybe instead of doing one product, a Dungeon magazine style product can be released. Adventures can be designed for several different settings or none at all. Maybe even feature a different magic system every issue. I would not imagine that we would have enough entries to make it monthly, but a quarterly publication can be manageable. Just tossing another suggestion onto the fire.

[Jhaierr]

The community could potentially decide on various aspects of the sourcebook by creating a survey/poll on a place like SurveyMonkey.com. Once we have a general consensus on what type/feel/sort of setting we'd like to have, then we can decide who would like to be in charge of creating it.

[Lucius]

Does anyone else remember this same conversation happening a year or two ago? There was a big plan to make free intro adventures with premade characters and everything. Exactly one got made by an individual working alone (and it was decent) and then know one spoke of the project ever again.

I know one who did speak of it .... you just did....

 

At some point I think someone needs to take chaegw and just actually begin it.

According to you, one person did take chaegw and actually began it, and finished it too. Can you provide a link or something so we can see what was done? THAT might be a good starting point!

 

 

Once again folks, at this point I will restate... This is why I suggested a contest...

And my countersuggestion is that you, shuddemell, judge the contest. After all,

 

 

As far as the work goes, that was the point in collaboration, and I am willing to do some of it.

YOU are volunteering to do (some of) the work. Perhaps you should collect some of the broad ideas about how to proceed, and start a poll thread - not to necessarily declare whoever gets the most votes to be the winner, but to get a sense of what ideas are popular among this particular group and to see some more discussion hashing things out, before YOU pick an idea and say "Okay, this person's ideas I'm willing to work with. Who else wants to help us make it happen?"

 

Personally I think that what THIS group here on Herogames.com thinks may matter less than the opinions of other gamers (or even interested people who aren't gamers yet) who have played little or no Hero. Who besides me is planning to ask any?

 

 

I don't really think being "official" or not is a deal breaker anyway, since the whole point would be to stimulate the new players to try Hero out.

 

I agree, other than staying out of legal hot water, official might be nice to have but isn't necessary. We can be "compatible with" without using proper nouns, I'm sure.

 

 

So take this idea with a grain of salt... because I am quickly beginning to see the backflow of naysaying becoming untenable.

 

Call this naysaying? I've seen some real naysayers. I knew this one old guy, really old, who discouraged me from trying for the Air Force, he would shake his cane and say "I told Orville and I told Wilbur and now I'm telling you, that contraption will never really work! Durn fool way to get yourself killed! Why, I..."

 

Now THAT'S naysaying!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises - bringing you more than just palindromedaries

[Ndreare]

Does anyone else remember this same conversation happening a year or two ago? There was a big plan to make free intro adventures with premade characters and everything. Exactly one got made by an individual working alone (and it was decent) and then know one spoke of the project ever again.

 

Not trying to be a downer, but I think we should try to keep things in perspective. Every couple of years sone variation of this conversation seems to take place. At some point I think someone needs to take chaegw and just actually begin it.

Yeh, last time I think it was me who started it. I posted the adventure, hoping to get some more generated by others, but did not see any more come out.

 

Maybe now that my group is on a Hero swing I will do a couple more.

[bigbywolfe]

Yeh, last time I think it was me who started it. I posted the adventure, hoping to get some more generated by others, but did not see any more come out.

 

Maybe now that my group is on a Hero swing I will do a couple more.

Did you do the one with the goblin fight and necromancer was the mayor?  I can't find the thread ...

[Tasha]

Did you do the one with the goblin fight and necromancer was the mayor?  I can't find the thread ...

Unless the file is hosted on another service. The last board update broke all links to other parts of the BBS. Which is why I hosted my How to Create outside the Hero Boards and have links to both places.

[Ndreare]

Yes that was me, I made two mini adventures meant to be played in a 2-3 hour session and started to work on a third. I also had the characters and player primer. I will post the in a new topic so as not to derail this one. I also had a couple paragraphs started of the third adventure which would lead on to a 3 night problem solver.

[Ndreare]

See this other post.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88176-short-adventures/

[shuddemell]

Lucius,

 

Actually, I would be glad to do just that. However, in some ways I already am, myself and a couple others are already working a quicky adventure, so that is where I will put my efforts for the moment.

 

Ndreare,

 

Nice work, this is exactly the type of thing that I was talking about!

[PaycheckHero]

It occurs to me that non-hero players won't see anything published for or by hero anyway. If the goal is evangelism, consider this: in LA there is a gaming convention three times a year, large enough to require the largest convention space in the LAX area. There are many RPGs on the schedule each convention. At the last con (Gateway 2013), two GMs ran three Hero system events. In order to contrast with a system of similar aims and complexity, six GMs ran 18 GURPS events, and the two most prolific GURPS GMs each ran at least twice as many GURPS games as there were Hero games in total. I don't think publishing stuff is going to overcome the fact that if the local con is any indication, hero games are either too few to matter or just aren't trying.

 

If the "writing adventures and settings" approach has been tried before, what if just for kicks you all channel your evangelistic energies in a different direction? Why not write a four-hour self-contained adventure with a description that makes people want to play, and take it to a con and *run an actual game where non-hero gamers might actually give it a try.* Note that you can publish it afterwards if you want, so you can actually do both. I just don't think publishing an adventure is likely to make people want to play Hero. However, having a great time playing hero at a con might.

[Kraven Kor]

If I were not a terrible, horrible GM, I would be all for that

 

Great for ideas, terrible at execution (in a table-top setting; I'm finding Play-By-Post on HEROCentral is educating me on things I do wrong, as well as allowing me to actually plan and execute things better.)

[Ndreare]

It occurs to me that non-hero players won't see anything published for or by hero anyway. If the goal is evangelism, consider this: in LA there is a gaming convention three times a year, large enough to require the largest convention space in the LAX area. There are many RPGs on the schedule each convention. At the last con (Gateway 2013), two GMs ran three Hero system events. In order to contrast with a system of similar aims and complexity, six GMs ran 18 GURPS events, and the two most prolific GURPS GMs each ran at least twice as many GURPS games as there were Hero games in total. I don't think publishing stuff is going to overcome the fact that if the local con is any indication, hero games are either too few to matter or just aren't trying.

 

If the "writing adventures and settings" approach has been tried before, what if just for kicks you all channel your evangelistic energies in a different direction? Why not write a four-hour self-contained adventure with a description that makes people want to play, and take it to a con and *run an actual game where non-hero gamers might actually give it a try.* Note that you can publish it afterwards if you want, so you can actually do both. I just don't think publishing an adventure is likely to make people want to play Hero. However, having a great time playing hero at a con might.

 

I am pretty sure I disagree with this premise. Yes Cons will help, but if the entry point and learning curve is not adjusted the average gamer will not want to play. There are too many games like Pathfinder, D&D or Savage Worlds were a player can just grab something off the shelf and play with no preparation time.

 

As a married man, wife a more than full time career and a 5 year old daughter, the time it takes to prepare for a game or to prepare my players is a major factor. All of my fellow players are also busy so when I say lets play Hero, it means we lose a night of gaming so we can make characters.

 

I want Hero to have a lower entry point and more pre-generated material, because I want more people willing to give it a shot. As someone who knows most of the rules without a book, I can make a character in a pinch in about 15 minutes. But I can tweak that character for weeks before he is perfect. When a new player comes a long he tries to make a character and spends 2 hours, with a feeling like the character is not quite right.

 

Sure I have a couple dozen pre-generated characters they could pull from, but it will not be the same as making their own. Unfortunately the thing I love about Hero is the flexibility and stability of the system, I can change stuff without it breaking, I can make any character, I simply have a lot of options. But show all of those options to a new guy and he get choice paralysis.

 

This touches on the Fantasy Hero Complete idea and the packaged adventures both as they are all tied together. A lighter fantasy hero would allow the player the illusion of a box to play in, with the real power in the back, for when it comes time for stretching the wings. Combined with a web site that store and distributes free adventure the way savage Worlds or Risus do will make it much more accessible.

[PaycheckHero]

I am pretty sure I disagree with this premise. Yes Cons will help, but if the entry point and learning curve is not adjusted the average gamer will not want to play. There are too many games like Pathfinder, D&D or Savage Worlds were a player can just grab something off the shelf and play with no preparation time.

I think you have missed the point. Players cannot just grab something off the shelf until they have a motivation to look at the shelf. They won't bother to play with any amount of preparation time until they have a motivation to play. Judging by the one data point I offered, getting to that point isn't likely because there is no visibility. What you're talking about is trying to provide a better answer to the question "so what do I need to get started in hero?" I'm talking about giving people a reason to ask the question.

 

As such, they are essentially independent endeavors. That's why I specifically pointed out that you can do both at once--you can publish your adventure as a ready-to-run item. In fact playtesting at a con will probably improve it.

 

If you want to fix a chain, you can't fix one link and call it done. You have to fix every weak link or you really haven't fixed the chain. That said, if as someone claimed this particular topic keeps coming up and failing, maybe it would make more sense to start by working on a different link this time. Or, for that matter, working on more than one, since some people may be willing to do one thing but not another.

[PaycheckHero]

If I were not a terrible, horrible GM, I would be all for that

I know the feeling. Not having played in a game of yours, I have no idea if that would be my impression or I would think you're just selling yourself short.

 

That said, "if not me, then who?" "If not now, then when?" You might find that biting the bullet and just having a go will motivate you to become a better GM. My experience as a player has been that people have been quite accommodating to people who go to the trouble of bringing a game to the con.

 

Because if we all wait until we're perfect, we won't do anything. I'd rather have one hero game to play in than zero perfect games.

[Kraven Kor]

Believe me, from experience, me GM'ing HERO does not *sell* HERO books.

 

I finally got my group to play, and they loved the flexibility of it, they loved making characters and building powers, but felt it was too clumsy in actual play (despite us getting 2x to 3x as much "done" in a typical HERO session than in a comparable D20 session...)

 

Seriously - my main issue is I do everything half-assed.  I just do.  I don't prepare as much as I should, and it shows when things get hectic; I forget key NPC abilities, lose track of who has what, I tend to give the players the benefit of the doubt and that comes across as "this is too easy," etc.  I end up forced to hand-wave things in some cases to get any kind of dramatic tension, as well as to avoid the occasional one-shot attack by an NPC.  And this is not a problem with *the system* it is a problem with *me running it.*  Not knocking myself; just simple admission of the problem.  I'm getting better, and HEROCentral is going to help me get better still.

 

But the funny thing with my group - their main complaint was "it takes too long to do anything."  Yet, we actually got way more accomplished in a typical session.  4 to 6 hours of D20 would be maybe 2 "scenes" or fights.  In HERO, I was having them easily get through three or four combats in a single session.  But they still felt it "took too long" to do things, or "was too hard."  I dunno man.

[shuddemell]

Believe me, from experience, me GM'ing HERO does not *sell* HERO books.

 

I finally got my group to play, and they loved the flexibility of it, they loved making characters and building powers, but felt it was too clumsy in actual play (despite us getting 2x to 3x as much "done" in a typical HERO session than in a comparable D20 session...)

 

Seriously - my main issue is I do everything half-assed.  I just do.  I don't prepare as much as I should, and it shows when things get hectic; I forget key NPC abilities, lose track of who has what, I tend to give the players the benefit of the doubt and that comes across as "this is too easy," etc.  I end up forced to hand-wave things in some cases to get any kind of dramatic tension, as well as to avoid the occasional one-shot attack by an NPC.  And this is not a problem with *the system* it is a problem with *me running it.*  Not knocking myself; just simple admission of the problem.  I'm getting better, and HEROCentral is going to help me get better still.

 

But the funny thing with my group - their main complaint was "it takes too long to do anything."  Yet, we actually got way more accomplished in a typical session.  4 to 6 hours of D20 would be maybe 2 "scenes" or fights.  In HERO, I was having them easily get through three or four combats in a single session.  But they still felt it "took too long" to do things, or "was too hard."  I dunno man.

Ultimately, as a general rule, players are lazy. This at least has been my experience, and it just doesn't amount to physical laziness, it is more intellectual laziness, would rather go with what they know, rather than learn something new, even if it is infinitely better.

[Silverhawk]

Believe me, from experience, me GM'ing HERO does not *sell* HERO books.

 

I finally got my group to play, and they loved the flexibility of it, they loved making characters and building powers, but felt it was too clumsy in actual play (despite us getting 2x to 3x as much "done" in a typical HERO session than in a comparable D20 session...)

 

Seriously - my main issue is I do everything half-assed.  I just do.  I don't prepare as much as I should, and it shows when things get hectic; I forget key NPC abilities, lose track of who has what, I tend to give the players the benefit of the doubt and that comes across as "this is too easy," etc.  I end up forced to hand-wave things in some cases to get any kind of dramatic tension, as well as to avoid the occasional one-shot attack by an NPC.  And this is not a problem with *the system* it is a problem with *me running it.*  Not knocking myself; just simple admission of the problem.  I'm getting better, and HEROCentral is going to help me get better still.

 

But the funny thing with my group - their main complaint was "it takes too long to do anything."  Yet, we actually got way more accomplished in a typical session.  4 to 6 hours of D20 would be maybe 2 "scenes" or fights.  In HERO, I was having them easily get through three or four combats in a single session.  But they still felt it "took too long" to do things, or "was too hard."  I dunno man.

Some of this is definitely what I have felt when a session that I have GM'ed has gone south. It mainly occurs when a Player or Players come up with a question that I hadn't thought of. One in some respects keep their own notes during a session in case they answer question and then the information come up again. One thing I hated about a fellow who was a D&D GM when I was in college wast hat the answers would sometimes change from session to session. An example being the evil cleric who apparently worshipped about three different evil gods who didn't like each other.

 

As for spreading the word, I think that you need a fairly straight forward drop in anywhere sort of place with several simple adventure options. A freehold on the edge of the civilized world. PC's are/should be locals in service to the freeholder. Battles with Orcs/Barbarians is one short get a feel for combat type theme. Characters should be what I call par-gen. They are partially generated with some points left for the player to customize. In particular there should be the need to have some disadvantages to be filled in as well as some skill or attribute choices.

 

Then there is the need to get it exposed. Cons are a good place especially if there is a dealer with inventory on hand. Another place to try and get Hero System exposure is a game stores that offer space for games. Again the idea is that they will likely have inventory so that some one who is interested can get in while the idea and experience is fresh.

 

Remember however that there are people out there who will try and still not be impressed enough to switch. I know several people who play Hero that refuse to play other systems. This can be frustrating when an idea requires to much to set up in Hero. Like a number of previous posters, I have a more than full-time life with a small child.