Tick-based combat

[mhd]

Did anyone ever experiment with a tick-based combat system in HERO?

To clarify what I'm speaking about: A few RPGs have combat systems where there are no discrete rounds, but where every action takes a certain amount of "ticks" to complete. Recent examples of this would be White Wolf's Exalted/Scion and Kenzer & Co's HackMaster (Basic available for free here). AD&D's "weapon speeds" might be seen as a somewhat unfortunate ancestor.

So let's say you're on tick 4 of the combat, and you just swung your mace. Because of your skill and ability plus the slowness of the weapon, it would have a "recovery" of 4, i.e. your next attack would be on tick 8. Spells and the like would have individual casting times. Initiative, if at all used, would be the time it takes from tick 0 until your first action, mostly simulating combat paralysis and recovery from shock (surprise would add to this).

I always liked this kind of system, but haven't been too fond of most of the games where it's used (don't get me started about Exalted). And as I've got lots of time to think about such things during my holiday hiatus, I've wondered whether this would be possible to include in HERO without creating too much friction.

In a super-heroic game, it might be a little out of place, but I think it could be done in a Heroic campaign where about 90% of SPD values are in the 2-4 range anyway.

So let me brainstorm this a bit:

• Speaking of SPD, we need some equivalent for this, preferably not derived from DEX. Probably your basic "waiting period" whereupon spells and weapons would add to. 12/SPD? Or maybe a modifier to the speed given for weapons/maneuvers/powers?
• Weapons and basic attacks would need some kind of speed factor. Either individually or in broad categories ("two-handed swinging"). Possibly multiple values per weapon (thrust vs. swing or even thrust vs. quick jab).
• Martial arts maneuvers would be well-served with some kind of speed reduction, so a Fast Strike would actually be faster.
• Extra Time and its inverse might be rather common for Powers
• Aborting actions would be rather easy, as it would just reset my countdown clock.
• Per-tick movement?
• PRE attacks adding a slight increase to your own action time, but potentially adding more to your opponents recovery.

In a fantasy campaign, you would probably have to take extra care so that all the speed and ability factors aren't too widely spread apart. It should matter whether you're using quick weaponry or powerful, slow ones, but you wouldn't want to end up with every rapier dude getting in 6 thrusts before your axe-wielding barbarian can get in a single one.

[Hyper-Man]

Isn't that kind of recreating the Extra Time Limitation rules?

 

edit

When I first read the thread title I though someone had figured out a way to use a Spoon in combat resolution mechanics!

[mhd]

Isn't that kind of recreating the Extra Time Limitation rules?

Given fractional SPD values and very fine grained ET values applied to almost any action, I'm sure you could express it that way. If you like writing RPG rules with copious amount of LaTeX formulas.

[IndianaJoe3]

I've noodled around a bit with a 24-tick clock, with half-phase actions taking a base 12/SPD number of ticks and full-phase actions taking 24/SPD. (You'd get better resolution with a larger clock (60 is good for everything except SPDs 7 and 11), but it gets unwieldy.) Segmented movement was used, but movement delayed your next action. I didn't get very far with it, though.

[bluesguy]

Personally I would go with assigning certain weapons, maneuvers, and spells as having extra time - full phase, 1.5 phases, 1 turn, etc.

[Hyper-Man]

Mechanically it could be done with essentially the opposite of Lightning Reflexes (a subtraction to Initiative with a specific weapon or action).

 

Start with Limited Dexterity (the way Lightning Reflexes was derived via the Powers system) and combine with all the other Limitations of whatever weapon or spell is being used (mainly Focus).  The final cost (a negative amount!) then gets applied to the main ability it applies to (as an 'adder' if using Hero Designer).

[mhd]

Mechanically it could be done with essentially the opposite of Lightning Reflexes (a subtraction to Initiative with a specific weapon or action).

That would just change the order within a segment.

 

Never mind that I don't think that simulating it with existing limitations is the proper approach, as this would be a really fundamental change. You'd have to see what you retain from the stuff you're replacing and adapt that to the new system.

 

Just to make sure that I made myself clear what I'd be aiming for, let's go through a slightly longer example. All numbers and most rules are totally ad-hoc, so let's not nit-pick it to pieces yet. (Keep in mind that we're totally ignoring the speed chart for this.)

 

Angus, Bonan and Camilla are entering combat. They're all aware of each other, no surprise. So let's determine the first time they'll act: Angus has Reaction Rank 3 wields a Dagger (Strike Speed 3), which is sheathed (+1) = he'll be able to act in round 6, but won't have his dagger drawn until round 7. Bonan (Strike Speed 3) wields a two-handed axe (Strike Speed 5), which he has bloodied and ready. He'll be able to attack in round 8. Camilla is pretty fast on the uptake (Reaction Rank 2) and has a spear & shield combo (Strike Speed 4). So she'll be the first to attack in round 6. (We'll ignore positioning and moving, mostly)

 

Round 6: Camilla attacks Bonan, who isn't ready yet. But as he's only clad in his loin-cloth, he really wants to block. He's two round away from acting, which gives a -2 to that attempt, and we'll double that because he didn't act even once. But even with -4 he makes the block, barely. Next actions: Camilla will attack again (6+4 => round 10), Bonan, too. But he blocked, so that resets his prep time, putting his next action at round 9 (6 + Strike Speed 3; NB: an additonal penalty for preemptive defenses might be needed). Meanwhile Angus is drawing his dagger.

 

Round 7: It's Angus turn. He attacks Camilla, who wants to block. If she'd be using her spear for that, it would be pretty dire (-3 penalty), but she has a shield which she hasn't used yet. So she blocks unmodified, and makes her roll. This doesn't change the time of her next attack. Angus next action: A quick jab (-1 Strike Speed; -1 DC) at Camilla again. His next turn will thusly come in round 9.

 

Round 9: Both Bonan and Angus are ready to strike again, both at poor Camilla who decideds to Dodge (and retreat), as she could only block one attack at the best of her ability. No preemptive penalty for Dodge, but it resets her initiative rank. Thus she'll get her spear ready in round 13 again. Bonan misses, Angus hits but fails to penetrate armor. Next actions: Angus round 12 (9+3), Bonan round 14 (9 + 5), Camilla round 13 (9 + 4)

 

etc.

 

This illustrates a few items that I'm wondering about. Penalties for aborting actions, how the fictional "Strike Speed" would be calculated etc.

(I was assuming some kind of base value plus weapon modifier here. Let's say everyone had a Base Reaction of 2, two-handed axes gave you +3 on that, daggers +1 and spears +1; a shield had a further +1, so it does slow your main weapon down, but leaves you free to ready it while still blocking)

 

 

Note that I'm really spitballing here, trying to see if it would be worth the while. I think for a heroic fantasy game it might be interesting enough, as speed becomes more of an option during play. For superheroic games, this is more a character creation matter (where I want to spend my points, SPD, OCV or damage DCs?).

[JasonPacker]

If you do decide to proceed with this train of thought, you might find useful inspiration in:

 

Runequest - not the newest version, but Chaosium RQ2 or Avalon Hill RQIII. They use a system called Strike Rank that will feel very familiar based on your example.

 

Shadowrun - 5E - they've returned to rolling a number of dice plus a static value to assign an initiative value, from which you subtract amounts based on defensive stances or attacks.

 

Rolemaster - at least the new public Beta - they use a percentage system to assign fractions of a turn to specific actions.

[Greywind]

Or look at D&D where it used the Speed Factor of the weapons.

[Kraven Kor]

Tick-based Combat?
 

The Tick takes no damage

[NuSoardGraphite]

The Hero system speed chart IS a tick-based combat system.  It's just that the action recovery time is based on the character rather than the specific action.  In essence, you could say that HERO uses the Proto-Tick system that all other Tick systems evolved from.

[bigbywolfe]

Proto-Ticks lived between 75 and 150 million years ago and grew to be nearly 4 feet in diameter. It is believed the fed primarily off of triceratops and other quadripedal herbivores.

[Narf the Mouse]

I posted a writeup for this once.

 

The reception I got was a lot warmer. And not in a good way.

[mhd]

One additional item I'm wondering how to implement would be the post-12 recovery. I could just do it every 12 ticks. On the other hand, I've never fully understood its justification and with a finer action granularity, just simply not doing anything for a few ticks would probably suffice. No free lunch anymore, but no 1/2 Def either.

[Kraven Kor]

One additional item I'm wondering how to implement would be the post-12 recovery. I could just do it every 12 ticks. On the other hand, I've never fully understood its justification and with a finer action granularity, just simply not doing anything for a few ticks would probably suffice. No free lunch anymore, but no 1/2 Def either.

 

Eh, maybe divide REC up between ticks, such that REC is more a reduction of END use per tick?

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would do an automatic recovery every 12 ticks for everyone, or if someone wanted to take a recovery during before the post tick 12 recovery, then they can take one at a speed of 3 or 4 or something.

 

Some considerations:

 

How many ticks does it take to recover from being stunned?

 

Can characters perform flurries? and if so, how does that effect attack speed?

 

What about blocks ability to allow the blocking character act first?b if the attack has a lower speed than the block

[mhd]

Oh, good questions.

 

Right now recovering from stun is basically "derived" from SPD. Maybe basing it on EGO or CON would be an alternative. As I'm not proposing this as a universal system, I'm covering a much narrower range of attribute values, so X - (CON/Y) could work, whereas this would put me in negative numbers otherwise. Or for simplicity's sake, allow a recovery roll every X ticks. Or even simpler: Base "Strike Speed".

 

Regarding multiple attacks, I'd say that some of them are just weapons or martial arts that have "fast" maneuvers available, and the rest is probably something like two-handed fighting. So they rarely would happen at the same tick. Hurrying, i.e. decreasing the time it takes you to act next, possibly foregoing some accuracy would have to be watched when designing this. If you set the base speed to low and then offer multiple ways to decrease it, all of a sudden you find yourself with people acting every tick.

 

Not sure about blocking. In a FH setting, it's quite likely that people will act in the same segment and thus the "act first" nature of a melee block becomes important. I'll have to simulate a few combats to see if this happens often enough. If it isn't that important anymore, it would be one less rule to remember... But then I could easily imagine a dedicated "Bind" maneuver that delays the next action of the blockee.