Magic Items - Aquiored & Starting

[Ndreare]

I normally just ask the players to write down what equipment they need to start with.

Unless it is unreasonable they get it. Even trivial or minor magic items are okay such as a couple scrolls or a couple potions.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 

 

WOW!  So a fighter-type PC would get armor, sword, dagger, lance, shield, a horse & a saddle, AND come coins?  That's a LOT of starting wealth.  

I let new players start with 300 silver pieces to buy gear from the list in the Fantasy Hero book.

 

I've never had a character buy more than one or two specific weapon skill levels; I think you misunderstand what I mean by "each weapon they have a specific skill level with" it means skill levels specifically purchased for a specific weapon as in "+1 with longsword" not "+1 with swords" or "+1 with melee weapons."   I don't know how many characters you have seen that do this, but weapons are fairly cheap in my game anyway.  As for the riding, I've never know that to be restricted to a fighter-type PC, and while horses are VERY expensive, I'm willing to give the PCs the benefit of mobility since it has very little combat application.  Warhorses are a different story.

[phydaux]

"Sometimes you all start shipwrecked, sometimes a few members of the party are scions of the filthy rich and noble. "

 

If a PC pays points for the Wealth perk, then good for them.  Even if they start shipwrecked, once they get back to civilization they have access back to the wealth they paid points for.

 

 

 

BTW, I am TOTALLY stealing the "You wake up on a beach, surrounded by wreckage and strangers" idea.  Thanks!

[esampson]

One of the great things about the Hero System is that you can make (within reason) whatever character you want. Want to be a destitute swordsmaster roaming around? Want to be a frail wizard who knows mighty spells? Want to be a holy warrior who can fight but who also has access to certain divinely granted powers? You can do all those things. It's just a matter of how you spend your points. Starting off with a 'family heirloom' is no different.

 

That said, one difficulty is that magic item creation is slightly broken in Fantasy Hero. To wit; there is no reason to put points into a foci that could be lost (unless you happen to be creating a magic item for another character so that they are not spending their own points).

 

If I create a magic sword with the OAF limitation it doesn't save me any points over learning an ability with an OAF limitation, but I now run the risk of 'losing that ability' if my special magical longsword is lost. Now arguments could be made that 'any longsword' isn't worth the OAF limitation since there are others around that could be grabbed, but I could just as easily make the limitation 'OAF - Customized longsword'. Now I can no longer just grab up any old longsword lying about. If I lose my customized longsword I am without my ability until I can get it back or else get a new one made, so I am very safely back in OAF land but with no risk of losing those points.

 

In earlier editions of Fantasy Hero there was a limitation called 'Independent' and what it meant was that if the focus was lost (it had to be applied to a focus) the points were gone for good. I can only speculate that it was removed because like anything in the game it was subject to abuse. A player could create a starting character with a lot of power placed into Independent foci. They got a huge boost and the GM would be reluctant to take their items away for fear it would 'ruin' the character (which truthfully it could since a player might put nearly half their points in Independent foci). With players who created these kinds of characters the risk was usually worth the reward since it really could buff up their characters and if they did get into a situation where they lost a large chunk of points they could always just chuck the character and make a new one.

 

Removing that rule, though, was probably a 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater' kind of thing. The problem wasn't so much the rule as the fact that GMs were allowing players to abuse it. To paraphrase as is often said about many things 'It wasn't a bad rule, it was just misunderstood'.

 

All in all it hasn't had an enormous impact on the game because most magical items are found by players rather than being paid for in points, so whether such a limitation is actually applied to the power of magic items is largely an insignificant bookkeeping detail. However, in a case of a character starting out with magic items (or creating their own) you might want to reapply such a limitation as a house rule. If memory serves me correctly it was a -1 limitation (it might have been -2, but I think it was -1). It was also not entirely thought out as it is probably a bigger limitation on certain foci than on others. If I am applying it to a D&D style potion or scroll (1 charge and then it is gone forever, not to mention the fact that it is in a foci that stands a good chance of being accidentally destroyed before I ever use it) it is a bigger drawback than if it is applied to a suit of magic platemail.*

 

Then what you do is simply keep control over allowing your players to buy stuff like that. It already looks like you are talking about doing that with limitations as to how much they can spend and active point limits, so this isn't even really an issue for you.

 

*An alternate solution for 'rules purists' is to allow players to purchase starting family heirlooms as 'Perks' (probably a subset of Wealth) with the perk costing less than the 'list cost' of the magic item. This won't fix players enchanting items but at least it will mean that a character with a magic sword that can be lost will be spending fewer points than a character with an indentical ability that simply requires a sword.

[Lucius]

Independent need not be applied to a Focus. It was simply a way of "detaching" the ability from the character. Using Area Effect with Independent for example would attach the Power permanently to that area.

 

Shrine of Healing: (Total: 157 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) Healing BODY 1d6, Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Hour; +1/2), Area Of Effect (13" Radius; +1), Two-Dimensional (-1/4), all [special effect] powers simultaneously (Characteristics; +2) (157 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3 1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x10 END; Only In Certain Circumstances (Resurrection or Regenerating limbs) Common; -3 1/4), Independent (-2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -1 1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or, without putting it "into" a physical object, I could make an Inpependent Power and give it to the palindromedary. Any way I do it, the points are committed, spent, no longer part of my character.

[Markdoc]

Indeed in the last campaign, "Independent" was used as a way of handling geases and magical powers for one school of magic. You could gain magical powers (with the +2 limitation, which helped reduce cost) by a magic ritual, but you had to take a geas at the same time. If you ever broke the geas, you lost the power. This was a simple way the cult involved could very rapidly generate a hero for its cause: all the cult members kick in some Xp ... er, "Life force"

 

This had the interesting side effect that you could (permanently) give your powers to someone else - for example in one case, a dying NPC got several PCs to swear to avenge his death, and then gifted them with his magical powers to help track his killers - and a geas. They got to keep the powers only as long as they pursued their quest

 

Independent is a useful limitation: you can do lots of things with it, including one thing which can otherwise be problematic: gift the PCs with short term powers. The trick to handling independent in the case of PCs spending their own points, is good communication ("If you take this limitation there really is a very good chance you will lose it for good at some point"), and in general not letting a PC sink so many points into an independent power that the loss of it will cripple the character. In my game, PCs only gain Xp for sessions that they attend, so PCs can end up with quite different Xp totals over the course of a longish campaign. When a PC dies (a rare, but potential outcome) or wants to start a new character, they start with Xp equal to the PC with lowest Xp total. That makes it unattractive for a powergamery type  to ditch a character if it loses an independent power to start afresh, which goes some way to control that aspect.

 

That said, it's never been a problem in my game. I have had players who chose independent powers and there have been cases where those were lost, but we have never had any whining about it.

 

cheers, Mark

[esampson]

Independent need not be applied to a Focus. It was simply a way of "detaching" the ability from the character. Using Area Effect with Independent for example would attach the Power permanently to that area. . .

 

 

Indeed in the last campaign, "Independent" was used as a way of handling geases and magical powers for one school of magic.  . .

 

True, there were other uses of Independent beyond magic items. My real point, though, was that in the past there was an extra point break for a magical item over 'an ability that requires an item' to reflect the greater limitations (it had to be the specific item and those points could be permanently lost).

[Lucius]

 

The current dispensation still has "Charges Never Recover" for -2.

 

Also of course, the Unbreakable Irreplaceable Focus

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary gets a 1 Century Continuing Fuel Charge that Never Recovers

[phydaux]

But isn't the whole point of the heroic setting that PCs DON'T pay points for equipment?  I know that if I was a player I'd get really ticked if I paid character points for a Stick of Pointyness and then have some NPC steal it, throw it down a well, and lose if forever.

[IndianaJoe3]

But isn't the whole point of the heroic setting that PCs DON'T pay points for equipment?  I know that if I was a player I'd get really ticked if I paid character points for a Stick of Pointyness and then have some NPC steal it, throw it down a well, and lose if forever.

 

PCs typically don't pay points for normal equipment. Magical or other unusual gear can still cost points. Also, the whole point of the Independent Limitation was that it could be taken away permanently. If the player doesn't want that then they shouldn't take the Limitation.

[Lucius]

But isn't the whole point of the heroic setting that PCs DON'T pay points for equipment?  I know that if I was a player I'd get really ticked if I paid character points for a Stick of Pointyness and then have some NPC steal it, throw it down a well, and lose if forever.

Not so bad if you can then steal HIS Stick of Pointiness and stick it to him.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Tagline of palindromedaryness.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would start with a scale of x10 with "middle class" (merchant class) starting with 1000 silver pieces with which to buy equipment. each level of wealth above that is x10. each level below is /10. with "destitute" starting with nada.

 

*yes, that means the filthy rich/royalty level of wealth starts with 1 million silver. i would probably only allow someone who paid for the perk to be royalty to purchase that much wealth starting out.*

[esampson]

But isn't the whole point of the heroic setting that PCs DON'T pay points for equipment?  I know that if I was a player I'd get really ticked if I paid character points for a Stick of Pointyness and then have some NPC steal it, throw it down a well, and lose if forever.

 

 

PCs typically don't pay points for normal equipment. Magical or other unusual gear can still cost points. Also, the whole point of the Independent Limitation was that it could be taken away permanently. If the player doesn't want that then they shouldn't take the Limitation.

 

I think more to the point, players don't pay for equipment that they aqcuire. Find the Quarterstaff of Wu Pass* and it doesn't cost anything. It was an acquirred item. Pay for it with gold you've obtained through other methods (including Wealth) and it doesn't cost you anything since it is acquirred.

 

On the other hand if you start off the game with it then you pay some points for it, just like the character who starts off Wealthy does. Why does the guy who starts with an item pay points when the guy who finds the item doesn't? For the same reason that the guy who starts with Wealth pays points while the guy who finds a chest of coins doesn't. You're spending points for the early advantage. TANSTAAFL.

 

Creating items is a bit trickier because generally you wouldn't charge a character any points to make a normal sword, assuming they have the blacksmith skill. The problem is that if you use the same approach towards magical items you will end up with characters grinding out huge amounts of magical items. Making the creator shell out points is the common solution but there are others (rare ingredients for instance). There are also 'fusion' solutions (rare ingredients may be required on items over a certain cost, rare ingredients might reduce the cost, or lack of rare ingredients might increase the cost).

 

*Wu Pass was one of four strategic mountain passes along the southern border of the ancient state of Qin. The temple located within the pass would teach the monks the art of Wu Pass.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's why I put disads on magic items.  Sure you got a potion of Healing, but it has Distinctive Looks: magical treasure.  Like that Flaming Sword of Doom?  Its hunted by the Knights who say Ni and has a psychological Complication: Hates priests.  If you won't go along with the sword, it puts out its fire

[Outsider]

As to the stacking defenses thing, the way i used to handle it was not to simply add the various defenses together, but to convert them to their armor mass equivalent, add those together, then convert back.

 

Example : A guy has Combat Luck (3rPD, Equivalent to Boiled Leather, 7.0 kg), Scale Mail (5rPD, Equivalent to scale mail, 14.0 kg) AND a force field (8rPD, equivalent to Plate, 40.0 kg).   His combined defense from all three would be the equivalent of wearing 61.0 kg of armor, or 9rPD..   

 

Basically, stacking defenses helps a little, but  is not campaign breaking.  Generally, it will be from 1 to 3 (at most) more DEF than the largest defense.