Movement, usable as attack

[WistfulD]

I have a player who discovered the usable as attack modifier, and wants to explore the limits of the ability (and my tolerance). One that he discovered was applying it to movement. Am I reading it right that if he successfully hits someone with the attack (which is fairly likely, especially if he makes it AoE as well), that the effected person then has to move as directed, not gets to? It seems like a powerful ability (roll one to-hit and successfully end/delay the fight). I pre-emptively nixed flying people straight up, and then ending the effect as getting a "falling" attack on most opponents fo free, and he's fine with that. I just don't see the defense against this. If you hit, they basically have to leave the battlefield?  Am I missing part of the equation?

[Scott Baker]

There's a reason that advantage has a Stop Sign on it. As with everything in Hero System, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should, or should be allowed to.

 

It sounds like you're not comfortable with what is being asked. If that doesn't fit your campaign, exercise your option to say, "No." Then discuss what the player is really trying to accomplish, other than stretching the rules.

 

Barring that, 6E1 355 gives you some guidance about defining,  "a reasonably common and obvious set of defenses that cancels out the attack." Everything has a defense.

[bigbywolfe]

You don't see a defense because there isn't one listed, you have to define it, just like you do with a NND.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have used it, and its a valuable option, but you have to be reaaaally careful with it as a GM.  Leaping usable as an attack can be very potent for not many points (1 point per 2m distant) and you don't want people to be able to replace powers like telekinesis with cheap tricks.

 

However, it does simulate some concepts very well to use movement with UAA.  Teleportation as an attack is a very useful device, for example.  Even the leaping one shown above is a way of simulating someone who can throw people back without buying a huge Block o' Text© TK build with tons of limitations.  Just remember as a GM to very carefully check out how its built, allow them only provisionally (test it out and see if you want to allow it for real) and enforce all of the limitations and strictures.

 

For example, teleportation has a weight limit, and you have to roll to hit.  I'd disallow teleporting people deliberately into solid objects or blind spots.  It just wouldn't work.

[Hyper-Man]

Example special effects that it makes sense for:

Gravity Powers (Marvel's Graviton)

Wind Powers (Marvel's Storm)

 

A typical 'Brick' like Colossus or The Thing can't do much against being lifted into the air by Graviton or Storm unless they are able to grab an object anchored to the ground.  Otherwise they have nothing to exert their STR against in the way they would vs. a typical Telekinetic Grab (example: A Green Lantern's energy 'Hand').

 

The Rules As Written (RAW and confirmed by Steve Long) do not allow the NND Advantage (5e) and its 6e equivalent to be applied to Telekinesis so for the examples above Flight UAA is the best approach.  UAA does require a defense to be chosen just like NND so it makes mechanical sense as well.

 

The real question is whether you would allow a character like Graviton or Storm in your campaign.

[IndianaJoe3]

I've used small amounts (2m) of Running UAA to represent a skilled fighter's ability to force his target to move to a less advantageous position.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like that idea IndianaJoe.  Simple but effective, and its done in combat by experts fairly often; the way to avoid it could be just as simple as a DEX roll or someone trained in martial arts who ignores it.

[Christopher]

The simplest way to move a target is the Basic Maneuver "Shove". Maybe throw for range. Apply it via Telekinesis or normal STR. No fancy powers or anything, just a basic maneuver!

 

A lot of people try imho wierd stuff like movement UAA or Insanely high KB multipliers on a no damage blast for forced movement.

When all you really need is STR+Shove/throw. And be done.

 

Teleportation forced movement? Just slap a modifier called "Teleportation movement" on TK, wich allows to move through walls but not smash people into walls anymore in return. Might still be an advantage then, however. Done too.

 

 

Example special effects that it makes sense for:

Gravity Powers (Marvel's Graviton)

Wind Powers (Marvel's Storm)

 

A typical 'Brick' like Colossus or The Thing can't do much against being lifted into the air by Graviton or Storm unless they are able to grab an object anchored to the ground.  Otherwise they have nothing to exert their STR against in the way they would vs. a typical Telekinetic Grab (example: A Green Lantern's energy 'Hand').

 

The Rules As Written (RAW and confirmed by Steve Long) do not allow the NND Advantage (5e) and its 6e equivalent to be applied to Telekinesis so for the examples above Flight UAA is the best approach.  UAA does require a defense to be chosen just like NND so it makes mechanical sense as well.

 

The real question is whether you would allow a character like Graviton or Storm in your campaign.

Not everything that works in the source material works in a RPG session.

At the very least you run into the many-authors issue (the GM is an Author, as is each Characters Player). The rules can help you arbitrate the inevitable conflicts of interest/result.

[Ndreare]

Not everything that works in the source material works in a RPG session.

At the very least you run into the many-authors issue (the GM is an Author, as is each Characters Player). The rules can help you arbitrate the inevitable conflicts of interest/result.

This is true gaming wisdom that a lot of people never get.

 

In the source material an author can often ignore a protagonist abilities and their logical applications in the interest of the story. Even provide Dues Ex Machina when needed or one time powers for the hero because he has complete control over it and no worries of abuse.

In RPGs players have conflicting goals and sometimes a players desired pal would ruin everyone else's fun. The most fun happens when we are all on the same page and with the same goal.

 

PS: Can you imagine how much it would suck to be a player in one of the Fox X-men universe? Yes it works in theater for Wolverine to have seven movies were he saves the world. But if you were sitting at that table playing Jean or Scott you would be miserable watching him play for and hour before you get your 12 minutes. After which he comes in and saves the day. I tell you the truth that is why Jean went Dark, but when she tried to kill him the GM let wolverine win again.

[WistfulD]

You don't see a defense because there isn't one listed, you have to define it, just like you do with a NND.

 

Thank you. That's what I'm looking for. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't misreading it and missing a defense (or just plain misreading it and it really just gave your enemy the option to move, so wasn't really an offensive-able power).

 

I think I will (like the flying people straight up and dropping them), declare building a power to move people into a harmful situation to be the setup for a linked attack (i.e. I don't care that gravity does the falling attack, you're paying for it with this power, and the whole better fit under our cap). Incidental damage like knockbacking someone off the top of a building is free. Teleporting someone is easy (try to teleport someone inside a solid object? How much damage does it do? you have to pay for that attack), but I'm still not sure with something like tunneling someone straight down (with no passage behind). It's perfectly within cinematic license for a piledriver to pound someone into the ground (say up to the shoulders if this is a cartoon), but it basically means someone is trapped unless they happen to have tunneling themselves. I'm thinking the examples already suggested might be close to the limit of what I'd allow.