How many supergroups in the US (any edition)?

[Lord Liaden]

From Champions Universe 6E p. 34:

 

True superhumans first appear in the Hero Universe — in other words, the “Champions Universe” part of that meta-setting truly begins — in 1938. (Some low-powered superhumans may have existed before then, but those incidents were isolated and short lived, the mere precursors of the flood to come). Initially, the number of superhumans was relatively low — about one in ten million, at most, and much lower than that in the less advanced regions of the world.

 

Over time, the number of superhumans steadily increased. By the late 1960s, it had reached one in five million in the most superpopulous regions of the world, and by about 1980 it was at around one in three million. As of 2010 there’s approximately one superhuman for every one million people on Earth — or about 6,000 altogether, give or take a few hundred. However, that’s not the whole story of superhuman demographics. There are several other factors to consider.

First, there’s the distribution issue. Superhumans aren’t spread evenly across the globe — you cannot, simply by consulting the population data for a country or continent, accurately gauge how many superhumans exist there. For reasons no one can satisfactorily explain, superhumans are more likely to arise in certain areas — primarily those areas that are more advanced technologically, politically, and culturally. In short, superhumans exist in much greater frequencies in the First World (the United States, mainly, but also places like Europe and Japan) than in Third World regions. This even holds true for mystically-powered superhumans, despite the fact that mysticism is more prevalent in the Third World than the First. In the United States, the number of superhumans in some areas is as high as one per 100,000, whereas in Africa and most of Asia, the numbers drop as low as one per ten million or even fifty million.

 

There's also a text box on the next page breaking down supers distribution in major nations and regions. And sadly yes, assault, officially in Champions Australia there's only one super per five million normals. But per capita that's still well ahead of lots of other places.

[assault]

There's also a text box on the next page breaking down supers distribution in major nations and regions. And sadly yes, assault, officially in Champions Australia there's only one super per five million normals. But per capita that's still well ahead of lots of other places.

 

One super per five million normals gives 4-5 supers in Australia. That's less than the number of Australian supers named in Champions Universe! (6e has: Taipan, Harrier, Brigade, Walkabout, Wanambi Man, Marmoo). It's stated that other, unnamed supers exist or have existed, eg, the three supers Taipan killed in Melbourne. 5e Champions Worldwide had a bunch more.

 

Arguably, some of these are interdimensional characters that only occasionally turn up, but even the canonical characters push/exceed the supposed limit.

 

If you actually want to use Australia in a game, the canonical population of supers is the first thing that goes out the window.

 

I should point out that the canonical figures could be used as the baseline at the beginning of a campaign, with the PCs and their opponents being part of a new wave of superbeings emerging in Australia. It's just a point of divergence from the official setting, which is what the official setting is written for.

[assault]

My apologies for the threadjack, incidentally.

 

In an ideal world, I'd sit down and write an unofficial "Champions Down Under", but that requires me to maintain a significant amount of concentration on a single topic for a significant time.

[Greywind]

Slacker

[Lawnmower Boy]

Well... If I were doing it, I'd start with Australia's ancient past. Australia is where the Valdorian Age happened. (If you've got Valdorian Age, you'll notice that you've got to take the map, hold it upside down, squint,  move some places, put a sea in the central desert and change names and descriptions around to make it clear that the ancient Valdorians are the ancestors of modern Aboriginal population. But, hey, it's a medieval map, so it's probably wrong, and the Shimmering Sea is artificial, so it's not impossible. 

 

Oh, and the Tower of the First and Last Sunset is in Tasmania, Takofanes' grave is in New Guinea (only, somehow, it got moved to Oklahoma.) No problem with that, though, cuz who ever goes to Tasmania? Or Oklahoma?

 

These things aren't completely mysterious,  so now I'm going to put a Valdorian Age archaeological park in downtown Melbourne.

 

Now I'm going to put three superheroes in Melbourne, in excess of the "expected" population of Australian supers --that is, they're there for a reason. Assault has already given us one reason: a "White Event" which creates a lot of superheroes. It's a Valdorian Age event!

 

Now I'm going to send a mysterious, cloned supervillain to Melbourne to kill those superheroes. Who made Taipan? What's his deal? If he's from the obvious retail outlet, he's a Teleios product. What's Teleios's connection with the Valdorian Age? Actually, the big question with Teleios is his mysterious patron. What's that person's deal with the Valdorian Age? Or Australia? Is he, say, an ancient Drindrish dragon riding sorceror with a black, soul-sucking sword? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

[Lord Liaden]

One super per five million normals gives 4-5 supers in Australia. That's less than the number of Australian supers named in Champions Universe! (6e has: Taipan, Harrier, Brigade, Walkabout, Wanambi Man, Marmoo). It's stated that other, unnamed supers exist or have existed, eg, the three supers Taipan killed in Melbourne. 5e Champions Worldwide had a bunch more.

 

Arguably, some of these are interdimensional characters that only occasionally turn up, but even the canonical characters push/exceed the supposed limit.

 

If you actually want to use Australia in a game, the canonical population of supers is the first thing that goes out the window.

 

I should point out that the canonical figures could be used as the baseline at the beginning of a campaign, with the PCs and their opponents being part of a new wave of superbeings emerging in Australia. It's just a point of divergence from the official setting, which is what the official setting is written for.

 

Honestly, I also noticed that the ratio was off somewhat when I reread that section of Champions Universe 6E. I wish I had noticed when I was helping Steve Long proof the book.

 

Let's see: for Australian heroes, Champions Worldwide writes up Brigade, Harrier, and Walkabout; and for villains, Anathema, Lightning Man, and Taipan. Hidden Lands describes the Wanambi Man (arguably a hero), and briefly mentions Tuckonie, "the superhuman thief" who is "Harrier's primary enemy" and "a skilled martial artist despite his diminutive size" (HL p. 71 sidebar). It's arguable whether menaces from the Dreamtime, which include Marmoo, should or should not be counted as "Australian villains" -- personally I would so categorize them. There's nobody else mentioned in Champions Universe.

 

So yes, the ratio is off, but not dramatically so. Australia is still under-represented IMHO.

[Lord Liaden]

Well... If I were doing it, I'd start with Australia's ancient past. Australia is where the Valdorian Age happened.

 

[sNIP]

 

Now I'm going to send a mysterious, cloned supervillain to Melbourne to kill those superheroes. Who made Taipan? What's his deal? If he's from the obvious retail outlet, he's a Teleios product. What's Teleios's connection with the Valdorian Age? Actually, the big question with Teleios is his mysterious patron. What's that person's deal with the Valdorian Age? Or Australia? Is he, say, an ancient Drindrish dragon riding sorceror with a black, soul-sucking sword? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

 

You and I have debated your "Valdorian Age is prehistoric Australia" thesis before (which isn't canon, if anyone was wondering), so I won't inflict that on this thread.

 

I have my own theories for the origins of Taipan and Teleios, neither of them germane to your proposals (or the topic of the thread, for that matter).

 

FWIW during one campaign I translated most of the cast of Aaron Allston's Strike Force campaign setting to Australia and Oceania. It's a mostly self-contained continuity anyway, and after making a few adjustments to regional and cultural references it worked pretty well.

[Steve]

This discussion actually raises an interesting campaign question.

 

How would things be different if the distribution was even?

 

If there was about one superhuman per say every two million people, you'd get large empty areas in the U.S. with only a single superhuman, but Europe and the coastal areas of the U.S. would have a more compact population of superhumans.

[CaptnStrawberry]

Not to mention China and India would absolutely dominate in sheer number of supers.    I was flipping through the Halt, Evil Doer! sourcebook the other day and it spends a whole chapter on this issue, coming up with in-game explanations for the imbalance such as cosmic rays that hit N. America, shadowy experiments in the US, and brutal anti-meta hysteria in Asia.  

 

Struck me as a little OCD; sometimes you just have to shrug and say 'genre convention'.    Since many superpowered persons may not know of/keep their capabilities secret, it's not like we'd ever have an accurate census anyway!

[Lord Liaden]

"Theories abound as to why this state of affairs exists. Some experts claim, and not without justification, that the “radiation accidents” which create many superhumans are more likely to occur in the high-tech environments of the First World. This does not, however, wholly explain why mystic-powered superhumans abound just as much in the First World.

 

Other students of the subject advance more esoteric theories. For example, one school of thought claims democracy and mass media attract more of the “forces” that create superhumans by building a more open, free-thinking society. In essence, theorists adopting this view believe superhumans result somehow from the unconscious thoughts and feelings of people, which are better or more frequently expressed in free societies. Some even claim that the existence of comic books chronicling the adventures of superheroes — a media phenomenon mostly non-existent outside the First World — acts as a “lightning rod” to attract “superhuman energies,” thus making superhumans more common in the United States, Canada, Europe, and Japan. But proponents of these theories cannot explain why free-thinkers in democratic societies should be any more likely to create superhumans than oppressed or impoverished Third Worlders yearning for a better life.

 

Even more radical are conspiracy-oriented theories that the movers and shakers of the First World arrange for the creation of superhumans as a way of keeping the Third World relegated to second-class status on Earth. No solid evidence in support of this idea has ever been made public, but that hasn’t stopped a lot of people from agreeing with it.

 

Complicating this issue is the fact that it’s not always possible to tell where a superhuman manifested, but only to determine where he’s currently engaging in superpowered activity. It’s widely believed that a percentage of the superhumans active in the First World were actually born in Third World countries, but used their superpowers to emigrate to the United States or Europe — which are not only “where the action is,” but better places to live generally. Some estimates claim as many as one-third of the superhumans in the First World are actually from the Third World, but given the difficulty in researching the subject, it’s unlikely scientists will ever have solid data on the question."

 

 

Champions Universe 6E pp. 35-36.

[Lord Liaden]

This discussion actually raises an interesting campaign question.

 

How would things be different if the distribution was even?

 

If there was about one superhuman per say every two million people, you'd get large empty areas in the U.S. with only a single superhuman, but Europe and the coastal areas of the U.S. would have a more compact population of superhumans.

 

CU points out that the distribution figures aren't uniform. There are areas, particularly in the United States, where concentrations of supers are much higher than the average. That's usually in major cities, which attract superhumans for the same reasons they attract immigrants, businesses, and criminals.

[Steve]

CU points out that the distribution figures aren't uniform. There are areas, particularly in the United States, where concentrations of supers are much higher than the average. That's usually in major cities, which attract superhumans for the same reasons they attract immigrants, businesses, and criminals.

Oh, I understand that. I was just wondering how a world might be affected if the distribution was even.

[CaptnStrawberry]

The CU has the right approach - a few paragraphs giving some possible reasons for the demographics.   A laborious, continent by continent slog is just too much.  

 

Liaden probably hit the nail in that supervillains are going to gravitate to the 1st world - that's where the money, hi-tech, power, prestige and fame they crave is concentrated.   Their egos won't allow them to prey on 'backwater nations', even if that would make more sense. 

[Steve]

I suppose there is something to be said to be the supervillain terror of Fresno, CA or the one superhero in Eugene, OR, but most want to head to a bigger pond to play in.

[DShomshak]

^{I start with the 1:1 million ratio, then divide it by 1 to 10 based on prevalence of high tech, powerful and interesting mystical traditions, general wealth, dramatic social conflicts, and a bit of whim. Australia, as a First World society with every possible origin-inducing factor, gets a divisor of 1, same as the US. China and India receive a divisor of about 4, so their supers populations are comparable to the US anyway -- and I just accept that, by having a lot of expat Chinese and Indian supers running around.}

 

^{But then, I have high mobility of heroes and villains anyway. It's a globalized world now, and heroes and villains get around same as everyone else.}

 

^{Dean Shomshak}

[Houston GM]

Additional U.S. superhero teams mentioned in assorted timelines....

 

Golden Age:

Defenders, Defenders of Justice, Freedom Battalion, Liberty Corps, Liberty League

 

Silver Age:

Minutemen, The Circle

 

Bronze Age:

Ameriforce One, Gold Coast Guardians, The Rangers

 

Iron Age:

Bayou Brigade, California Patrol, Freedom Guard

 

3rd Millennium:

Hero Corps, The Bay Guardians, Peacekeepers (it's not clear whether the Peacekeepers are a U.S. team)

 

 

I will point out that not all of the timelines can be (current) canon.

[Lawnmower Boy]

 

You and I have debated your "Valdorian Age is prehistoric Australia" thesis before (which isn't canon, if anyone was wondering). . . . 

 

I'm not saying that "Lord Liaden" is actually a paid online spinster for certain sinister entities who want to suppress discoveries about Australian prehistory. I'm also not saying that he isn't. 

[Lord Liaden]

I suppose there is something to be said to be the supervillain terror of Fresno, CA or the one superhero in Eugene, OR, but most want to head to a bigger pond to play in.

 

OTOH there's a lot to be said for being the biggest fish in a small pond, like a Doctor Doom or Joseph Otanga. It may not be spacious, but it's all yours. And it's a secure spot from which to start flooding your neighbors.

 

The Mystic World presents an interesting thesis: that cities, counties, whole nations, may acquire a special mystical significance. When the British Empire dominated the world, London became the greatest center of occult affairs, just as it was for political and financial ones. Mystics who meddle in worldly affairs like to go where they can meddle most effectively. This can include influencing society to promote certain philosophies and behaviors, and creating mystical power sites by shaping the local geography or architecture. Immigration from elsewhere in the world draws and mingles spirits who normally confine their activities to one region of the globe.

 

Britain's mystic significance in the world has faded significantly, but the same trends have contributed to raising the United States to  preeminent occult region.

[SteelCold]

Of course, in the published CU, Australia is essentially a wasteland as far as heroes are concerned. Not my problem.

Tell that to Captain Australia.

[Comic]

I believe the consensus view is that Australia is a Madland more than a wasteland.

[Greywind]

...I thought the first Mad Max was a documentary

[Lord Liaden]

Current CU Australia is ripe for a continent-wide "radiation accident" spawning a new wave of supers. IMHO that would make a great basis for a campaign: while there are a very few experienced heroes around the country, they would be greatly outnumbered by the upsurge in supervillainy, requiring a new generation of heroes to pick up the slack. And your PCs would be on the ground floor of that movement.

 

At this point my preferred radiation accident scenario would be a wave of reality-altering dimensional energies erupting out of the Well of Worlds in Uluru/Ayers Rock, probably due to tampering from some extra-dimensional menace or Earthly occult supervillain. Second place would be a shower of kelvarite meteors; there's precedent for that in the lore. Heck, maybe one of the latter landing on Uluru could set off the former, so we could have both.

[Netzilla]

...I thought the first Mad Max was a documentary

 

No, that's the legend.  Road Warrior was the documentary.

 

If an Australian Outback populated by mutants with severe road rage is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Lord Liaden]

Another CU-based point, taken from The Mystic World: the Astral dimension of Faerie, aka the Land of Legends, is shaped by and populated with beings from human imagination. That doesn't just include old defunct legends: one region of Faerie takes after the American West, but in addition to Native American legends it also incorporates the tall-tale figures from United States dime novels and movies.

 

I figure the iconic Mad Max setting has been around long enough, and is widespread enough in the public consciousness, for a version of it to have coalesced within the Australian region of Faerie. Could be an interesting place for heroes having fallen through the Well of Worlds to end up... or maybe some of its inhabitants might come out the Well the other way.

[SteelCold]

I guess Beyond Thunderdome was the music video to said documentary.