Hermit Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Yes, this is inspired by another thread about mystics and mentalists I'm going with the 'official' archetypes, because most of us at least know what we mean by that, and its a common ground. However, in case you need a refersher... Brick Energy Projector Gadgeteer Martial Artist Mentalist Metamorph Mystic Patriot Powered Armor Speedster Weapon Master So, very generally speaking: which archetype has the best 1) Coolness factor? 2) Sex appeal? 3) Trust ? (Understated, but let's face it, an important side effect in how you fight crime is how you're trusted by the public) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 The Patriot has the biggest trust factor. As far as cool and sex appeal, In many ways it depends more on character than power framework. Mentalists, metamorphs, and mystics tend to get the least trust because much of their mystique centers on mystery and to a certain extent deception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tae Kwon Dan Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 1)Coolness - I would probably go with the Martial Artist on that one. Followed closely by the Gadgeteer and that's only so I can mix the two and get Batman who is still teh r0XX3r. 2)Sex Appeal - I would think this is more a function of costume than archetype. 3)Trust - I think in comic history it's always like folks trust the Brick for some reason. There's something about being big and strong that instills confidence in folks. Unless of course you're a Mentalist and just make them trust you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BishopofB&W Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Coolness: I'm torn between gadgeteer and speedster. Sex Appeal: Martial Artist(they're so flexible!) or mystic(he's so mysterious!) Trust: The Brick. Joe Average made larger than life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Coolness eh? For me, cool characters are the ones achieving more with less ability. Obviously that's not an archetype. So back to the list... Mystic or Weapon Master. I make a lot of characters that depend on minor mystical abilities to enhance their other powers. Martial artists with small enchantments, that sort of thing. I like that mystic edge to a character. Weapon Master's are cool in that they are generally normal guys who walk into a room filled with guys who have native powers, big suits of armor, magic, etc. and they make the challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 There's such a wide variety of characters in each archetype. I don't think it breaks down very easily. I can't even pick out a character for each of the three, because different writers do wildly different things with them. I can't even say I have a favorite comic character, because some shlep inevitably comes along, does a run on the book, and screws the character up for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Arrow Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 It is a bit difficult because even within archetypes there can be a huge spread. However... 1) Coolness. I agree with Blue that someone who achieves a lot with only dedication and training could be perceived as "cooler" than some guy who happened to be born on a weird planet, or fell into the right vat of chemicals. I'd say Martial Artist or Weapon Master, though. They also often have a disciplined attitude, so they aren't easily scared or impressed, again adding the the cool factor. 2) Sex Appeal. Impossible to really say as this partially depends on the character him/herself and partly on what the other party likes. For example, if a lady likes a sense of humour, she might go for Plastic Man (although I am not sure that's the type of humour women necessarily go for). If she likes dark, brooding types, it might be Batman. If she prefers a real blue-eyed, blue-collar type hunk, it could be Captain America (yes I know he's an artist, not really blue-collar, but he's the "All-American" type isn't he?). Being more than a little crude, a stretchy-type metamorph or one with Growth (in small doses), could be very popular. Actually, a stretchy guy who can change his appearance, alter his, er, dimensions (I mean to appear hunky, get your mind out of the gutter) and has a great sense of humour might win in all departments. Martial Artists and Weapon Masters might be very fit and controlled, but they are so dedicated, they might not appeal to ladies, maybe even appearing uptight and obsessed by violence. Mind you, no one ever told that to Ollie Queen's ladies. 3) Trust. I'd go with Patriots and Bricks. Patriots are idealists and often very good people (although theoretically some types of Patriot could be evil). Bricks have very up-front powers. What you see is what you get, plus who doesn't like a hero with a "safe pair of hands"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston GM Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 How they score. Brick Coolness: B+. Strong and tough are cool, but the "all brawn / no brain" reputation detracts a bit. Sex Appeal: B/D. Women like a man that makes them feel petite and delicate. This may wear a little thin when he cracks your ribs giving you a warm hug. Men do not prefer women who make them feel small and delicate. Trust: C. To many bricks end up as thugs for them to be wholeheartedly trusted. Even the heroes can cause collateral damage by breathing heavily. The smarter bricks can work their way into the public trust, however. Energy Projector Coolness: B. They're flashy and impressive. Power pulses through their veins. Sex Appeal: B-. They're the kings of the skin-tight costumes. The inherent risk has an appeal ... until it becomes immediately life threatening. Trust: C-. They're easy to understand, which the public likes. But they lose their temper and start blowing things up. Gadgeteer Coolness: D. Too many of these guys were the introverts who spent most of their time talking to inanimate objects. Sex Appeal: D. I think he built himself a gadget to take care of those urges. Trust: B. These are the "normal blokes" who keep an eye on those "freaky mutants". If it wasn't for the occasional doomsday device (or experiment gone wrong), these guys would be ranked 'A'. Martial Artist Coolness: A. These are the real people who have the courage to go toe-to-toe with supers. And they have the skill to win too. Sex Appeal: A. They've spent a lifetime getting an incredible physique. Unless they've been horribly scarred in the process, they're the ones you want to be with. And their level of discipline usually means they're not hopping from bed to bed. Nobody wants sloppy seconds. Trust: A. These are also "normal people" who are keeping the neighborhood safe from all the freaks. Mentalist Coolness: D. Mentalists are only cool in a creepy sort of way. People like the idea of being able to see into other people's minds, but they don't like it if the situation is reversed. Sex Appeal: D. Mentalists can take intimacy a step further than it should go. Trust: F. If they trust you, they won't kill you on sight. That's about as much trust as you're going to get. Metamorph Coolness: B. Turning into some things (wolves, sports cars, pillars of fire) is cool. Turning into other things (fish, toaster ovens, mud puddles) is not so cool. Sex Appeal: C. Sure, they can look like the man/woman of your dreams ... but what if they're really a man or an amorphous blob looking like the woman of your dreams (or vice versa)? That's not nearly as sexy. Trust: F. They can sneak around and spy on you. They can pretend to be your best friend and learn your secrets. They can sleep with your girlfriend, and she might not notice the difference. Mystic Coolness: A. They're dark and mysterious. They know secrets that other people don't. They have power. Sex Appeal: A. They have mystery, danger, and most have a fabulous wardrobe to back it up. Trust: D. Communing with dark powers and demons from beyond the pale may be cool, but nobody wants it happening next door. Patriot Coolness: D. They stand up and support the government. They obey the law. They are so uncool. Sex Appeal: D. They're safe. They're the kind of date your mother would approve of. Who wants to date a square? Trust: A. They have a mission to protect the people. They're accountable. Powered Armor Coolness: B. They may not be powerful on their own, but they're cool just like a sports car or a jet fighter. Sex Appeal: A-. All the sex appeal of a sports car, and the mystery of wondering what he/she really looks like in there. But there's that nagging question whether someone is "compensating" for something. Trust: A-. They're also seen as normal people who stand up to the mutants and freaks. While they do have potential to cause destruction, you can always sue them for everything they own (like their powered armor). Speedster Coolness: B. These are the king of the smart-alecs. They excel at making their opponents look slow, clumsy, and foolish. Wisecracks may be cool, but only up to a point. Sex Appeal: F. No one wants a man who is going to take them on a "minute waltz", or a woman who will look up and say "Would you hurry up and finish already." Trust: B+. They're not destructive. Many run around helping people out in their spare time. This compensates for their flighty nature. Weapon Master Coolness: A-. They're respected for the same reasons that martial artists are. Sex Appeal: B. They have the benefits of martial artists, but weapons sometimes cross the line from "dangerous" to "threatening". Trust: B. They're normal folks standing up for the rest of us, but some of them are clearly violating weapon laws. --------------------------------------------- These are just generalizations. Never underestimate the power of a pretty face, a cool costume, a sexy accent, and lots of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Well done Houston. Logical, well thought out, and complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by Bartman Well done Houston. Logical, well thought out, and complete. Got to second that, though I might disagree on a few of them, it was well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Cool thread, and Houston's answer was cool too. But I think coolness, sex appeal, and trust have more to do with the character's personality, history, and style. It's true that certain sets of powers seem to influence the character's personality and style to a degree, though. And there is also comic book tradition. I'm saying the obvious here, but 99.9% of comic book superheroines have A+ in sex appeal. Is there anyone with COM lower than 18? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Rene I'm saying the obvious here, but 99.9% of comic book superheroines have A+ in sex appeal. Is there anyone with COM lower than 18? I'd say most of them. Frankly top-heavy has never been my prefered body form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 The artists need to take a look at real female athletes and martial-artists for inspiration for more of the female characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher The artists need to take a look at real female athletes and martial-artists for inspiration for more of the female characters. Living up to your title there, Kristopher. Forget realism. These are comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 There's also the fact that I find Mia Hamm, or Michelle Yeoh, or Yancy Butler far more attractive than the typical supermodel or blonde busty ditz -- or the spandex-busting art that many comic-book artists seem incapable of deviating from. If they want some female characters to defy gravity and have the unspoken power of superhuman balance and spinal column, that's OK I guess. But what about a little variety? Is it that they're so limited artisticly that they can't do anything else, or are they like the drooling fanboys of stereotype? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Mmmmmmm. Hamm. [drool] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher The artists need to take a look at real female athletes and martial-artists for inspiration for more of the female characters. Yeah that's just what comics need - female characters with thick waists, muscular thighs, flat butts and so little body fat they don't even need bras. Brother, if it aint broke, don't go FIXIN' it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Blue Mmmmmmm. Hamm. [drool] Damn it, Blue! You made me spit out my soda! And I'm all out! Now I have to go to the store... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Michelle Yeoh and Victoria Smurfit, to name just two examples, would beg to differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by phydaux Yeah that's just what comics need - female characters with thick waists, muscular thighs, flat butts and so little body fat they don't even need bras. Brother, if it aint broke, don't go FIXIN' it. Well, if that's the image of the typical athletic female you have in your head, I'm not sure where to go from here. Of course, I've never understood the appeal of the ghetto booty either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher The artists need to take a look at real female athletes and martial-artists for inspiration for more of the female characters. As soon as the movies, novels and television lead the way I'll be all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 To some extent sexiness and cool is more a matter of packaging than powers. Let us take the mystic archetype. On one end you have folks like Doctor Fate and Doctor Strange, who really don't rate high on the sexy meter or the cool meter. Then you have the Trenchcoat Brigade and Zatanna on the other end of the matter. Admittedly, John Constantine isn't exactly a superhero, but he is a magician, and while some might debate the trenchcoat isn't exactly a proper superhero costume, it's been a staple of the mystic end of the superhero business. Likewise if you look at mentalists, on one end you have Charles Xavier, and on the other end you have Psylocke. Creating a cool male mentalist shouldn't be that impossible. It's really a matter of styling when you get down to it. We could probably go through archetype after archetype and create cool/sexy or uncool/unsexy. In most cases you could probably find actual examples of each. And of course there's also fashion and public awareness. Martial arts were sort of a ghetto thing back in the seventies and in the sixties they were non-existance. They started slowly entering the public consciousness during the eighties (the Age of Ninjas), and now thanks to all these martial arts movies from Hong Kong and inspired by Hong Kong (Matrix, et al) you've got martial arts being fashionable and cool in superhero comics, even though effectively most superheroes were trained martial artists from the beginning (at least if you're Batman). Trust is a more interesting issue. I'd tend to phrase it the opposite way. There are three sorts of powers that tend to scare the crap out of people. They are information gathering powers, misinformation producing powers and manipulation powers. Information gathering powers are primarily telepathy and clairvoyance, though precognatives fall into that category as well. People who know things that other people don't want them to know. Everyone is afraid of people who can find out their secrets or know things no one should be able to know. The second category covers shapeshifters, illusionists and people who can tamper with memories. People don't like being able not to trust their memories and senses. The last category is mind control, though people who can transform other people, even things can make people twitch. In all other cases, it's more a matter of personality and attitude. I'll give a simple example. Captain America versus Batman. Strip away Cap's shield and Batman's utility belt and they're more or less both brilliantly trained hand to hand fighters. And it isn't Batman's utility belt that makes him somewhat less than embraced by others, and Cap's shield isn't the reason for his trust and popularity. Superman and the Hulk are both bricks, but there's a wide degree of difference between the two of them in terms of public perception and trust. So to sum up, I don't consider most archetypes to be inherently sexy or unsexy, cool or uncool, it's all a matter of packaging. As for trust, there are some archetypes, or more precisely powersets that tend to make people afraid. As for the others, there is more potential for trust in general, though in the end, anyone can be untrustworthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Sorry guys, I didn't mean to imply that Coolness, Sex appeal, and trust was based entirely, or even major league on archetypes; just that archetypes were simple ways to break it down, and therefore easy to try (however inaccuately). Naturally, we could scrap the archetypes all together and talk about what makes those qualities shine most, but that's almost too OPEN a field Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevHooligan Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Has no one seen the irony of asking a forum of GAMERS what is cool and sexy? I can ask my girlfriend about it. She's from Canada. You wouldn't know her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Originally posted by Mutant for Hire On one end you have folks like Doctor Fate and Doctor Strange, who really don't rate high on the sexy meter or the cool meter. Wholly subjective, of course, but I know people who would rate Doctor Strange high on both. He's powerful, mysterious, elegant, with a dapper mustache and distinguished grey at the temples. Not to mention a great pad and stylin' wardrobe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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