HKA and STR-increase by the book

[Roter Baron]

I am pondering of starting (after more than 14 years or so) another Champions campaign again (my player have been pestering me for about, say, 13 years, 11 months and 29 days ...).

 

Anyway, I would like to run 6th Edtion (something fresh), ahve all the books I need (and then some), but I am a big "by the book" player and gm.

 

But one thing that seems to be quite unballancing is HKA and STR - it does not max out at double the CD any more (yes, there is an option, I know). So, I would like to know how you handle it. The villaisn in the Villains Books seem to be build with sometimes quite powerful HKA if they have hight STR, too. Some have the "STR does not add" limitation.

 

Both ways seem to be "unfair" to me:

1. STR 60 character wants to have a HKA to show off than he can bite through steel cables (rPD 8) and thus buys a 1D6+1 HKA (20 points - according to 5th Edition that's 2 1/2D6k). Now in 6th Edition he can bite through steel cables all right - and the head off a T-Rex (= 5D6+1K)!

2. He still wants to bite through steel cables and figures that 2 1/2D6 should do the trick, with the "STR does not add" limitation thrown in for good measure to keep them T-Rexes alive. That works, but now he has to pay 27 points!

 

So, how do you handle this rule?

What are your experiences during play?

[Hyper-Man]

No experiences during play but just looking at the numbers I would recommend using a Custom Limitation worth (-1/4) and call it something like "STR can only Double Base HKA Damage".  Then as a reminder to the player add the "correct" damage amount to the "Notes" section of the Power in Hero Designer.

 

HM

[massey]

The value of "str does not add" should really be based on what your Str is.  So your Str 60 brick should get a hefty limitation for that, far more than -1/2.  A Str 1 character really shouldn't get any value for the lim.

[Roter Baron]

I only cited the limitation offered "by the book". But I agree.

[Hyper-Man]

Another angle worth considering is HKA's with Advantages.

 

i created a version of Captain America's Shield as a Multipower with a 75 Active Point Reserve a while back and one of the slots was an 'Edge Bash' HKA with multiple Advantages.  Even with his 25-30 STR Cap could only add 1 or 2 Damage Classes to the base ability because of the Advantage Prorating.  It makes sense that if a character as strong as the Hulk were to use the shield in that way he could do significantly more damage dice even with the prorating involved.

 

So maybe a better middle ground rule would be to say that STR can only add as many Active Points to Damage as the Active Points that the HKA is built on including Advantages.

 

HM

[Tholomyes]

Personally how I would do it is just buy a 5 active point HKA. While it would theoretically allow for a 4d6+1 killing damage with strength, the game doesn't require that the character use their full strength. I don't particularly see a reason not to simply allow the player to add a (-0) limitation to their HKA power that says "May only add up to 35 STR to damage"

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd say a lot of the problem is the clash of mechanics (system consistency) and common sense.  The HKA is the only power which is augmented by having purchased a different ability (leaving Hand Attack out because it is +X STR, only for direct damage).

 

Under the old rule, we had issues of imbalance as well. 

 

If I bought a 15 STR and a 45 AP HKA, I spent 50 points, got the benefits of a 4d6 HKA and a 15 STR.

 

If I had a 30 STR and bought a 30 AP HKA, I spent 50 points, got the benefits of a 4d6 HKA and a 30 STR.  So I get +15 STR for free.  Pretty good deal, especially in 5e and prior when that STR came bundled with +3 PD, +3 REC and +7.5 STUN.

 

Of course, I could buy a 15 STR and a 60 AP HKA, No STR Adds (-1/2) and spend 45 points, getting the benefits of a 4d6 HKA and a 15 STR for a 5 point rebate.

 

Perfectly balanced?  I suggest not.

 

 

 

From a pure mechanics perspective, I submit there should be no HKA.  Like most other attack powers, you would buy Killing Attack, which costs 5 points per 1DC and is ranged by default. 

 

You want your KA to be non-ranged?  Buy it "no range". 

 

You want your KA to do more damage because you have a high STR?  Buy more KA with the SFX "my high STR KA".  Just like having a high STR that helps you run faster means you buy more Running with the SFX of high STR legs.

 

The problem then comes to the desire a high STR character do more damage with a sword.  Fine.  Build the Sword as a 1d6 + 1 RKA, no Range, + 1d6 + 1 RKA, no range, only adds 1 DC per 5 STR above 8.  Now you have a sword that has a STR minimum of 8, and adds damage based on high STR. 

 

Cumbersome build?  Sure - that's why Supers generally bought a 1d6 + 1 HA Sword with no STR minimum.  But in a Heroic game, the build/construction of the weapon doesn't crop up the same way, does it?

 

6e decided to compromise, though, so we got "STR still adds to HKA, but we return to the 1e rules" (there was no doubling cap in 1e) and a sidebar saying "but maybe you want to cap it after all as a house rule".

 

No rule is going to make everyone happy, of course.

 

 

 

So now we have Big Thump, with his 60 STR, who can buy a 5 point HKA and do a 4d6+1 HKA.  He pays 50 points for STR and 5 for HKA, so 55 points.

 

Or Big Thump could buy a 30 STR, and a 35 point Multipower with two slots, +35 STR and 2d6 + 1 HKA.  That costs 20 (STR) + 35 MP Pool + 3x2 (for 2 slots) , so 61 points - and he can also have access to 65 STR instead of 60 for the extra 6 points invested.  He effectively pays 1 point to be able to convert his 65 STR to a 13DC HKA, while following the doubling rule. 

 

That's right, that "huge imbalance" is actually less than 6 points!

 

Or he buys the Multipower as a 30 point pool with +30 STR and 2d6 HKA, for 20 + 30 + (3x2) = 56 he loses +1 to the HKA and spends one more point than under the "no doubling cap" restriction.

[gregor3d]

To take care of the problem with strength adding to hand killing attacks. Just house rule that you cant use more strength then dice in the hand killing attack.

making it more closely related to how it was set up in 5th edition.

[Doctor Victory]

This seems incredibly inbalanced, Good to see I'll be building future characters with 5 points of strength in a multipower with a HKA.

[Lord Liaden]

Honestly, I haven't found it unbalancing at all. Just think of that small HKA plus the Strength added to increase it, as being the same as a separate Killing Attack of the same Active Points as the character's Strength plus the HKA on top... which it essentially is. If you reversed the Active Points in the HKA and the character's Strength, you'd end up with the identical damage costing the identical number of Character Points.The character has already invested all those points in Strength, so the KA can be viewed not so much as a separate Power, but like an Adder. The character can't use Strength for a separate attack while using the HKA; for example, if you bought a Ranged KA of that magnitude with No Range, in addition to the character's Strength, he could use both of them in a combined attack. Granted, the character can switch from Normal to Killing Damage relatively inexpensively this way, which can be a tactical advantage in some cases. OTOH the small KA is highly vulnerable to being Drained, Dispelled, etc. or being broken if bought as a Focus.

[Roter Baron]

Thank you very much. Your answers have been very insightful.

[DasBroot]

Also, hand killing attacks of that magnitude tend to occur in superheroic games - where resistant defense is common.  If the target of the 4d6+1 killing attack has even 15 rPD the brick was better off using his 12d6 punch.  Both will do 0 body but the 12d6 regular attack avoids the Stun Roulette of a killing attack.

 

By the rules it might look like an unfair advantage but in 3 years of play in my superhero games in practice nobody has bothered using them in my games since the first '0 body, X1 stun' roll. Your mileage may vary.

 

The most unfair thing about it, in play, is (as I think someone mentioned) there's no way to do that with a non-hand to hand attack (you can't turn your 12d6 Blast into a 4d6+1 RKA for 5 points. You know, without putting it in a multipool).  But that's mostly because strength has always been a problem attribute when it comes to that.

 

"I can blast things far away, if I take enough levels of penalty skill levels to actually make my range matter, for 12d6"

 

"I do the same damage with a punch. I'll take the points you spent on PSL and put them into Leaping.  Also I can grapple the guy and have a 60 strength so he's probably out of the fight even if HE has a 60 str (stupid initiate grapple vs half str rules *always* favors the attacker).  And I can lift 100 tons. And throw an enemy 24 meters (at least) into another enemy for 12d6 to both of them, in all likelihood (even a Bod 10, PD 2 baseline villain is good for that)."

[Scott Baker]

Also, hand killing attacks of that magnitude tend to occur in superheroic games - where resistant defense is common.  If the target of the 4d6+1 killing attack has even 15 rPD the brick was better off using his 12d6 punch.  Both will do 0 body but the 12d6 regular attack avoids the Stun Roulette of a killing attack.

That's expected. The changes in 6E were to emphasize that KAs do BODY. It's not even a matter of Stun Roulette any more. The maximum stun of a KA is less than the average stun of an equivalent normal damage attack. Unless a character's KA has significantly more DCs than any other attack, don't use the KA if you want to do STUN damage.

[gregor3d]

the new way just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for adding strength to killing attacks. Making strength very effective if you can buy killing attacks as a adder. Thru one question comes to mind. Would you be able to add range to the killing attack and get the strength added on or would you have to add range to the strength

[Lord Liaden]

You could add Strength to the Advantaged Killing Attack, but the Strength would be "pro-rated" for the Advantage. For example, if your character had 30 STR, and you gave him a 2d6 HKA (30 Base Points), he could normally use his STR to raise the Killing damage to 4d6. But if that HKA had the Ranged Advantage (+1/2), increasing its Active Points to 45, since one-third of its new AP would be taken up by the Advantage, one-third of the character's Strength would be apportioned for that Advantage. So he could only add the equivalent of 20 STR to the base HKA, for a total of 3d6+1; but that attack could now be used at Range.

 

Notice that the character's Strength cost him 20 Character Points (the first 10 being free), and the Advantaged HKA cost 45 Character Points, for a total of 65 CP. But a straight 3d6+1 Ranged Killing Attack would cost only 50 CP.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Here's how I handle it.

Take a 1d6 HKA

Up to double the base damage Classes (2d6) its straight 5 strength per DC

Up to double that again, (4d6) its 10 strength per DC

Up to double that again, (8d6) its 15 STR per DC

 

and so on.  Otherwise, I agree, the increases get absurd.  Grond could take a dagger and cut down the Empire State Building.

[Lord Liaden]

If said dagger is a Real Weapon, then no. If it's "unreal," then why not?

[Roter Baron]

 Thanks to you all very much. Your answers regarding game balance, the design logic behind it and the experiences from actual play are very interesting indeed. Especially the hint that there is no STUN-lottery any more makes killing attacks really that - attacks to kill and destroy, not to roll a high number with few dice and then a lucky 5 for multiplier.

 

Too bad that Mr Long would not share a word about it when I asked him that question in the HERO System 6th Question path. Maybe he thought that I wanted to "bash" his design while I was just curious about the decision behind it.

[L. Marcus]

It's a matter of principle, I think. As he says, he doesn't answer questions that boil down to design philosophy.

[Roter Baron]

Which is sad because - as you can see from the people here sharing their oppinions and insights - it would not have taken much time and would make people (like me) appreciate the system even more by knowing the reason for the decisions. I can understand that he does not want to become entangled in a "why this - why not that"-discussion. But I wasn't to start one of those anyway.

 

But okay, I think I have my answer and I am quite satisfied

[Hugh Neilson]

Also, hand killing attacks of that magnitude tend to occur in superheroic games - where resistant defense is common.  If the target of the 4d6+1 killing attack has even 15 rPD the brick was better off using his 12d6 punch.  Both will do 0 body but the 12d6 regular attack avoids the Stun Roulette of a killing attack.

 

By the rules it might look like an unfair advantage but in 3 years of play in my superhero games in practice nobody has bothered using them in my games since the first '0 body, X1 stun' roll. Your mileage may vary.

5e, it was an advantage, and it grew as the opponent's defenses got higher. A variety of older threads analyzed the math in detail. In 6e, the KA became a poor choice niche attack for most Supers games just by dropping the Stun Multiple to 1d3. Rightly so - its purpose is to kill, and that should not work well in a low lethality genre. Fixing the price on AP makes it worth using now, so overall I like the tradeoff.

 

"I do the same damage with a punch. I'll take the points you spent on PSL and put them into Leaping.  Also I can grapple the guy and have a 60 strength so he's probably out of the fight even if HE has a 60 str (stupid initiate grapple vs half str rules *always* favors the attacker).  And I can lift 100 tons. And throw an enemy 24 meters (at least) into another enemy for 12d6 to both of them, in all likelihood (even a Bod 10, PD 2 baseline villain is good for that)."

How many skill levels did you take with "thrown biped of opportunity"? Part of the problem with "unbalanced" STR is that we tend to be far too generous with objects of opportunity turning STR into AOE, Range with no targeting drawbacks, etc. That's not consistent with the source material - when the Hulk throws a bus at Spidey, he nimbly leaps through its windows, avoiding the attack - doesn't seem like he was targeted as a DCV 3.

  

Here's how I handle it.

Take a 1d6 HKA

Up to double the base damage Classes (2d6) its straight 5 strength per DC

Up to double that again, (4d6) its 10 strength per DC

Up to double that again, (8d6) its 15 STR per DC

 

and so on.

My recollection from SETAC is that one goal of 6e was to simplify damage additions, which is not the result here.

 

Otherwise, I agree, the increases get absurd.  Grond could take a dagger and cut down the Empire State Building.

Why would Grond need a dagger to cut down the Empire State Building? His brute STR is more than adequate to the task.

 

One issue no one ever seems to consider - I can perform a multiple power attack at my discretion. What, in 5e (for example) prevented Grond using a 1d6 KA dagger, say, to do a 1d6 KA, + 1d6 for STR, combined with a 90 STR Strike? He's using his KA and his STR, two separate powers, in a single MPA.

 

Oh, I would also suggest that dagger is a Real Weapon, so unsuitable for cutting down a building, and the force of a 90 STR fist behind it will break the dagger pretty quickly.

[DasBroot]

How many skill levels did you take with "thrown biped of opportunity"? Part of the problem with "unbalanced" STR is that we tend to be far too generous with objects of opportunity turning STR into AOE, Range with no targeting drawbacks, etc. That's not consistent with the source material - when the Hulk throws a bus at Spidey, he nimbly leaps through its windows, avoiding the attack - doesn't seem like he was targeted as a DCV 3.

 

Actually, I do have one character that does have +8 penalty skill levels with the thrown maneuver, but it's an edge case so overall I get what you're saying about the throwing portion of my str advantage vs blast list.

 

As an aside I give larger than man sized (ie can do AoE) objects of opportunity the 'Non-Selective' disadvantage which attacks full DCV.  Throw a bus into melee where Spider-Man is in hand to hand with one of your allies and you'll probably miss Spidey and clobber your pal.

Edited April 3, 2016 by DasBroot

[Fedifensor]

The biggest problem with the HKA situation is campaign limits. There are workarounds (1 pip HKA, multipower with HKA and extra STR), but they just feel wrong from a mechanical standpoint.